British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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BA has been trying to negotiate with UNITE. BA has been patient. BA has tried a lot of things - look at those things which they have removed from their original proposal. They did not accept the pay cut which your union happily offered them without consulting their members - why did not BA accept it as probably most employers would have? Go figure!
What about BASSA's behaviour on July 1st - the day after the deadline - when they went to the hotel with media invited and said that BA never came that and refused to meet? FFS!
The list goes on and on. Think about it carefully.
BASSA - This is not day nursery!
What about BASSA's behaviour on July 1st - the day after the deadline - when they went to the hotel with media invited and said that BA never came that and refused to meet? FFS!
The list goes on and on. Think about it carefully.
BASSA - This is not day nursery!
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IheartMBT - BA does not have your best interests at heart. It never has done, it never will do, it never should do. BA is a business and it has it's shareholders interests at heart. Once crew start to get to grips with that fact they might start to take the emotion out of the argument and get somewhere.
BA needs to save money, ideally without a strike, but with if need be. They are going to get the savings, and I doubt they really care how they do it as long as they get them. Your unions role, if it is really representing you, is to achieve those savings with the minimum pain.
Do you feel adequately represented?
Do you feel that avoiding the savings by taking industrial action is what you want?
Do you feel that misrepresenting the savings delivered by other staff groups in order to foment a feeling of victimisation is an approach you'd take?
Do you feel that lying about colleagues (including your husband) to stir up hatred against them is a strategy you could endorse?
Do you feel that an attitude of confrontation rather than cooperation is the way you'd like your union to operate?
Were you ever consulted about what you were prepared to change about the way you work?
If your union reps are in the same boat as you can we assume that you are an old contract CSD, part-time, eager to retain a day to day veto over the way BA operates and have been caught with your hand in the cookie jar manipulating rosters to ensure maximum income for yourself? Or maybe you're are actually in a different boat?
BA needs to save money, ideally without a strike, but with if need be. They are going to get the savings, and I doubt they really care how they do it as long as they get them. Your unions role, if it is really representing you, is to achieve those savings with the minimum pain.
Do you feel adequately represented?
Do you feel that avoiding the savings by taking industrial action is what you want?
Do you feel that misrepresenting the savings delivered by other staff groups in order to foment a feeling of victimisation is an approach you'd take?
Do you feel that lying about colleagues (including your husband) to stir up hatred against them is a strategy you could endorse?
Do you feel that an attitude of confrontation rather than cooperation is the way you'd like your union to operate?
Were you ever consulted about what you were prepared to change about the way you work?
If your union reps are in the same boat as you can we assume that you are an old contract CSD, part-time, eager to retain a day to day veto over the way BA operates and have been caught with your hand in the cookie jar manipulating rosters to ensure maximum income for yourself? Or maybe you're are actually in a different boat?
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Valid point - if BA had been clever they would have removed the PSR from First and let the CSD work there and leave the PSR in Club to operate the galley as they have the experience! I agree that Nos 2 - 777 - and 7 - 747 - are usually the last positions to be chosen and it is not fair as they have not been given any adequate training.
One suspicion is to let main crew get the experience of running the galley - as it is probably only a matter of time before BA removes the PSR in First and has it replaced with Grade 1 CC.
My thought is that BA only wants 1 CSD and 1 PSR - to supervise WT - on WW.
One suspicion is to let main crew get the experience of running the galley - as it is probably only a matter of time before BA removes the PSR in First and has it replaced with Grade 1 CC.
My thought is that BA only wants 1 CSD and 1 PSR - to supervise WT - on WW.
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Where have you read this? I know for a FACT that a VERY senior BASSA official is working over that period ( as they are listed on my friends roster). As for the rest unfortunately i am not privvy to other crews personal files ( as is nobody else) so am not able to comment.
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1heartMBT
I am a regular & I am aware that at present the seats are still full & I'm still intending to fly to CPT 23 Dec in the hope that common sense will prevail & a late booking with Virgin is now too expensive; I'm on a reward flight!!!!.
However, if IA happens then myself & 1,000s of others will migrate to your competitors & unfortunately there will be many empty seats which will result in the closure of BA & there will be long queues at the job centre.
However, if IA happens then myself & 1,000s of others will migrate to your competitors & unfortunately there will be many empty seats which will result in the closure of BA & there will be long queues at the job centre.
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But I have been paying a union to represent me and I hope that they have mine and their best interests at heart.
I know for sure BA dont.
I know for sure BA dont.
Then you say that BA don't have our best interests at heart. That is rubbish. BA's interest is one thing and one thing only - the survival of our company. Pure and simple. And that one thing is most definitely in our best interests. If they did not make the savings and allowed this company to collapse, we would be the first to complain about management negligence. Keeping our jobs or taking a crew member off. I know which one I prefer.
I am BA cabin crew. I have VOTED NO to save my job. I will come to work on strike days.
I am BA cabin crew and the above post represents my own personal viewpoint and not that of BA.
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FINCASTLE
You have benn following this thread for a long time, so I fail to have sympathy with you as you have had plenty of time to make alternative arrangements with another airline.
Also a strike WILLNOT send 1000s to other airlines,there WILLNOT be many empty seats, BA WILLNOT close and there WILLNOT be long queues at the Job centre. Just look at the history. Tad dramatic me thinks.
You have benn following this thread for a long time, so I fail to have sympathy with you as you have had plenty of time to make alternative arrangements with another airline.
Also a strike WILLNOT send 1000s to other airlines,there WILLNOT be many empty seats, BA WILLNOT close and there WILLNOT be long queues at the Job centre. Just look at the history. Tad dramatic me thinks.
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i have followed this thread with some interest, i am SLF,and cannot see what BASSA expects to get from this by calling for strike action.
it would appear that there will be a very high % who vote yes, but unless this same % actually do take strike action(and that looks extremely unlikely) and cause massive disruption to BA then they will not achieve anything; in fact if the strike just fizzles out then they will not be in a position to negotiate anything in the future as BA will just ignore them.
if i was a member of BA crew considering going out on strike, i would want, and expect, every one of the elected union reps to be on the picket line from day one - on scheduled roster days; not on holiday, non working day, sick etc , but actively on strike.
there is a chance that BA will sack anyone who strikes on day 1 (or who goes sick), so if i was to consider striking i would want to know where my elected leaders were.
and remember, you can get sacked, and you will almost certainly win your tribunal whenever in the future it takes place, but it may affect your future career prospects.
if they will not confirm that they will be on the picket line on official strike on day 1 then i would have to ask myself why i should strike and jeopardise my own future if they are not.
it would appear that there will be a very high % who vote yes, but unless this same % actually do take strike action(and that looks extremely unlikely) and cause massive disruption to BA then they will not achieve anything; in fact if the strike just fizzles out then they will not be in a position to negotiate anything in the future as BA will just ignore them.
if i was a member of BA crew considering going out on strike, i would want, and expect, every one of the elected union reps to be on the picket line from day one - on scheduled roster days; not on holiday, non working day, sick etc , but actively on strike.
there is a chance that BA will sack anyone who strikes on day 1 (or who goes sick), so if i was to consider striking i would want to know where my elected leaders were.
and remember, you can get sacked, and you will almost certainly win your tribunal whenever in the future it takes place, but it may affect your future career prospects.
if they will not confirm that they will be on the picket line on official strike on day 1 then i would have to ask myself why i should strike and jeopardise my own future if they are not.
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Originally posted by 1heartMBT
But I have been paying a union to represent me and I hope that they have mine and their best interests at heart.
I know for sure BA dont.
But I have been paying a union to represent me and I hope that they have mine and their best interests at heart.
I know for sure BA dont.
I disagree, sadly they do not have my interest at heart. BASSA were proposing everything I was against contrary to BA's very reasonable proposals which I have accepted. The late finish, working an extra day, etc, etc which has been posted several times on this thread.
If we go back , BASSA were against fixed links on EF for which BA were prepared to give us a payment for in order to achieve more productivity from the long turnarounds that we do.
Where are we now? We'll probably end up doing them for nothing in the future! Talk about shooting oneself in the foot! So please don't tell me they have our interests at heart.
I am a real CSD for BA having been in BA for well over a quarter of a century, not a management spy and I WIll NOT STRIKE and throw my job away.
PS. Please keep flying the flag Fincastle, just hope the militants do not ruin your's and Mrs Fin's travel arrangements.
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Does anyone know what is considered a ''majority Yes vote'' - if 51% of people vote yes will that be classed as majority enough for a strike to go ahead or do they need a vast majority ie. 80% etc?? If its the former then unfortunately there probably will be a strike (unless BA manage to stop it!) Does it also matter about a majority return ie. if only 30% of ballot papers are returned and there is a 90% Yes vote, will that mean that is not valid - as I don't really class that as a majority Yes vote?
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Sidebustle, governments in the UK have recently tended to be returned with 42%-ish of the popular vote.
That however is rather different to a union getting a 60% 'Yes' return on a 70% turnout, ie the same 42% mandate. If that is what BASSA get, then I would be very surprised if they pushed the nuclear self-destruct button, as that is surely what it would be with such poor support. No, I fully expect BASSA to either:
(1) call off the ballot this week (if they feel they will not get the required support (15% probability), or
(2) get the result in the region of 60-80% in favour (by those who bother to vote) and claim it is not enough to strike with and call for talks (50% probability), or
(3) get an 80-90% vote in favour (as above) and call a strike, which BA will then successfully get a court injuction preventing (25% probability), or
(4) as (3) above and BA let BASSA strike and the strike collapses within 24 hours (10% probability).
In all of the above scenarios, BASSA end up claiming a moral victory and whinge about the courts and big business being against the working classes, and claiming that the cabin crew are all heroes. In the meantime, the cabin crew come back to work with their tails between their legs, BA regain control of the operation and New Fleet appears in Summer 2010. BA request to negotiate EF work matrices and LH disruption agreements and BASSA aren't able to resist the required changes.
Just my thoughts.
That however is rather different to a union getting a 60% 'Yes' return on a 70% turnout, ie the same 42% mandate. If that is what BASSA get, then I would be very surprised if they pushed the nuclear self-destruct button, as that is surely what it would be with such poor support. No, I fully expect BASSA to either:
(1) call off the ballot this week (if they feel they will not get the required support (15% probability), or
(2) get the result in the region of 60-80% in favour (by those who bother to vote) and claim it is not enough to strike with and call for talks (50% probability), or
(3) get an 80-90% vote in favour (as above) and call a strike, which BA will then successfully get a court injuction preventing (25% probability), or
(4) as (3) above and BA let BASSA strike and the strike collapses within 24 hours (10% probability).
In all of the above scenarios, BASSA end up claiming a moral victory and whinge about the courts and big business being against the working classes, and claiming that the cabin crew are all heroes. In the meantime, the cabin crew come back to work with their tails between their legs, BA regain control of the operation and New Fleet appears in Summer 2010. BA request to negotiate EF work matrices and LH disruption agreements and BASSA aren't able to resist the required changes.
Just my thoughts.
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The problem is that a failed strike (due lack of support on the day) is probably the only way to destroy BASSA.
In the 2007 dispute BASSA "lost" when UNITE pulled the plug and stopped the strike at the 11th hour.
Unfortunately BASSA didn't die, it just continued on and threatened another strike in 2008, then caused mayhem with the snow disruption, got really petty with the hot towels issue and is now balloting for yet another strike.
Unless it is literally destroyed it will just keep picking battles year after year after year.
None of us really want to see a strike but then none of us want to see BASSA control this company any longer.
BASSA said it will fight to the death, that probably needs to happen to end this once and for all.
let's just hope it's their death and not ours.
(Obviously BASSA supporters need not agree!)
In the 2007 dispute BASSA "lost" when UNITE pulled the plug and stopped the strike at the 11th hour.
Unfortunately BASSA didn't die, it just continued on and threatened another strike in 2008, then caused mayhem with the snow disruption, got really petty with the hot towels issue and is now balloting for yet another strike.
Unless it is literally destroyed it will just keep picking battles year after year after year.
None of us really want to see a strike but then none of us want to see BASSA control this company any longer.
BASSA said it will fight to the death, that probably needs to happen to end this once and for all.
let's just hope it's their death and not ours.
(Obviously BASSA supporters need not agree!)
Last edited by plodding along; 7th Dec 2009 at 15:50.
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These are all areas that don't affect new contract maincrew in anything like the same way. That's why when Bassa offered a pay cut, offered 767s to shorthaul, a purser off LGW, it seemed like the same old birds were continuing to feather their very lucrative nests.
If it were me, I'd be asking some pretty searching questions of my reps, and not giving them my trust unless they satisfied all my questions and took aboard MY opinion too.
No you won't. You'll be on same basic, a travel allowance which will even out allowances, and very generous other terms and conditions compared to competitors.
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Midman
As i stated earlier i have not voted yes because a crew member has been taken off the flight. I have voted yes because BA IMPOSED it. Which in my eyes once this has started, where will it end.......NEWFLEET hence my ref to flexi rosters and pay.
I am actually pro the travel payment IF and its a very big IF it is legally binding for life( the last payment we agreed on for LIFE lasted 3 years and was taken off us again) see where I a going with this?.
I am a purser ( on an old contract) and have said I would be willing to compromise on a wage decrease (within reason). But the main crew out there on new contracts are not able to decrease their wages anymore. Talk to them ask them what they take home ( nowhere near the 29k being sprouted on here). We have all based our lives on our wage why should it be taken away? Would you accept a 42% wage drop to support BA?? Be honest. Because that is what new fleet would mean for me.
As i stated earlier i have not voted yes because a crew member has been taken off the flight. I have voted yes because BA IMPOSED it. Which in my eyes once this has started, where will it end.......NEWFLEET hence my ref to flexi rosters and pay.
I am actually pro the travel payment IF and its a very big IF it is legally binding for life( the last payment we agreed on for LIFE lasted 3 years and was taken off us again) see where I a going with this?.
I am a purser ( on an old contract) and have said I would be willing to compromise on a wage decrease (within reason). But the main crew out there on new contracts are not able to decrease their wages anymore. Talk to them ask them what they take home ( nowhere near the 29k being sprouted on here). We have all based our lives on our wage why should it be taken away? Would you accept a 42% wage drop to support BA?? Be honest. Because that is what new fleet would mean for me.
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The bottom line here is BASSA WILL continue no matter what happens.
Simply because most crew can't be bothered to do anything about them even worse most crew haven't got a clue what's going on under their own noses.
(IE) January 2007 BASSA made utter fools out of cabin crew leading them down the yellow brick rd then calling it off at the last minute.Here we go again .Frankly i am at the stage i couldn't care less i hope they do start the new fleet up and bring in some new crew and drum out these wingers once and for all.Let the get down to the job centre and see what they can get.I think in this climate we are ALL lucky to still have a job.
Simply because most crew can't be bothered to do anything about them even worse most crew haven't got a clue what's going on under their own noses.
(IE) January 2007 BASSA made utter fools out of cabin crew leading them down the yellow brick rd then calling it off at the last minute.Here we go again .Frankly i am at the stage i couldn't care less i hope they do start the new fleet up and bring in some new crew and drum out these wingers once and for all.Let the get down to the job centre and see what they can get.I think in this climate we are ALL lucky to still have a job.
IheartMBT
"I am actually pro the travel payment IF and its a very big IF it is legally binding for life"
Not asking for much are you? Do you seriously think there is an employer anywhere on the surface of this Earth who can guarantee anything for life? Personally, as someone who works for B.A., I'm hoping we all have a job this time next year..
Not asking for much are you? Do you seriously think there is an employer anywhere on the surface of this Earth who can guarantee anything for life? Personally, as someone who works for B.A., I'm hoping we all have a job this time next year..
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MBT
Bassa have repeatedly said they will not negotiate on any permanent cuts. Bassa now say they are ballotting to force the company to negotiate. ???????
What would happen if the company said, ok, clean slate, lets sit down and talk about how do we achieve these savings?
Be honest, Bassa wouldn't, couldn't do it. (It's actually about power, remember)
I really cannot see any other option for the company. Otherwise how could IFCE achieve any savings?
As for you. How will you have to take a 42% pay cut? You don't have to shift to New Fleet and the travel allowance will even out allowance payments for the most part.
Bassa have repeatedly said they will not negotiate on any permanent cuts. Bassa now say they are ballotting to force the company to negotiate. ???????
What would happen if the company said, ok, clean slate, lets sit down and talk about how do we achieve these savings?
Be honest, Bassa wouldn't, couldn't do it. (It's actually about power, remember)
I really cannot see any other option for the company. Otherwise how could IFCE achieve any savings?
As for you. How will you have to take a 42% pay cut? You don't have to shift to New Fleet and the travel allowance will even out allowance payments for the most part.
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Carnage Matey you wrote
[QUOTE]If your union reps are in the same boat as you can we assume that you are an old contract CSD, part-time, eager to retain a day to day veto over the way BA operates and have been caught with your hand in the cookie jar manipulating rosters to ensure maximum income for yourself? Or maybe you're are actually in a different boat? [QUOTE]
Some Facts for you:
1. Not all BASSA reps are CSDs
2. Not all BASSA reps are on the old contract
3. Not all BASSA reps are part time
As for your closing comment, dont get me started on scheduling The scheduling that phone me and the scheduling that phones my hubby are worlds apart. Whenever we have had child care probs or a family prob my hubby phones scheduling to sort it as all I recieve is SORRY NOT ABLE TO. I have known my husband to ask not to be used and he hasnt. If I so much as try and swop ANYTHING due to genuine probs, it is not possible. So please DONOT talk to me about manipulating rosters. I would like to add before someone misunderstands, I find flight ops alot more helpful than crew ops.
[QUOTE]If your union reps are in the same boat as you can we assume that you are an old contract CSD, part-time, eager to retain a day to day veto over the way BA operates and have been caught with your hand in the cookie jar manipulating rosters to ensure maximum income for yourself? Or maybe you're are actually in a different boat? [QUOTE]
Some Facts for you:
1. Not all BASSA reps are CSDs
2. Not all BASSA reps are on the old contract
3. Not all BASSA reps are part time
As for your closing comment, dont get me started on scheduling The scheduling that phone me and the scheduling that phones my hubby are worlds apart. Whenever we have had child care probs or a family prob my hubby phones scheduling to sort it as all I recieve is SORRY NOT ABLE TO. I have known my husband to ask not to be used and he hasnt. If I so much as try and swop ANYTHING due to genuine probs, it is not possible. So please DONOT talk to me about manipulating rosters. I would like to add before someone misunderstands, I find flight ops alot more helpful than crew ops.
