British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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I'm suprised that you feel the crew willfully and happily cause disruption...generally I find that c crew HATE to lose their forward roster because they have to cancel their life until it becomes stable. Not knowing when or where you are going is such a huge problem.
The ability to manage work around leisure creates employee buy-in to the roster - regardless of short-term disruption, the airline would have little practical ability to rewrite rosters at short-term notice due to the vast number of people involved.
The cost of bidding would be negligible primarily due to the savings created by fewer "sickies".
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Well done Bealine for holding the fort whilst PiB is having a little sabbatical.
With the changes proposed to the Disruption Agreement by BA, amounts to in the world of pilots, to their Bid Line being scrapped. I am sure they would find that unacceptable. I am very surprised that BA has not tried to scrap it, as mentioned before it is very inefficient and costly.
I have BA's proposals in front of me. Anybody who thinks they are just going to work a little harder for the same money clearly needs their head examined.
BA cabin crew are being put through annual SEP checks months early if they have any spare MBT's. This is to clear the decks for all the part timers who Walsh thinks will be able to man the operation. All we will need is another PHX evacuation and we will see if BA are playing around with their customers lives or not?
With the changes proposed to the Disruption Agreement by BA, amounts to in the world of pilots, to their Bid Line being scrapped. I am sure they would find that unacceptable. I am very surprised that BA has not tried to scrap it, as mentioned before it is very inefficient and costly.
I have BA's proposals in front of me. Anybody who thinks they are just going to work a little harder for the same money clearly needs their head examined.
BA cabin crew are being put through annual SEP checks months early if they have any spare MBT's. This is to clear the decks for all the part timers who Walsh thinks will be able to man the operation. All we will need is another PHX evacuation and we will see if BA are playing around with their customers lives or not?
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All we will need is another PHX evacuation and we will see if BA are playing around with their customers lives or not?
While the crew did a fine job in PHX, who's to say that Virgin, Emirates or even LGW crew, all of whom are on far less money and similar T and C's to which BA are proposing wouldn't have done an equally good job?
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Well done Bealine for holding the fort whilst PiB is having a little sabbatical.
I am very surprised that BA has not tried to scrap it, as mentioned before it is very inefficient and costly.
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All we will need is another PHX evacuation and we will see if BA are playing around with their customers lives or not?
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With the changes proposed to the Disruption Agreement by BA, amounts to in the world of pilots, to their Bid Line being scrapped. I am sure they would find that unacceptable. I am very surprised that BA has not tried to scrap it, as mentioned before it is very inefficient and costly.
What is your opposition to bidding? A very useful tool to manage workload and satisfy requirements for time off at personal events.
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I am very surprised that BA has not tried to scrap it, as mentioned before it is very inefficient and costly.
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New Crew
Just wanted to ask for peoples thoughts on the ex temps and people in the LHR hold pool, there are over 300+ ex temps reference checked and ready to go, and many others waiting to start for the first time. So if BA are trimming the fat with the 200 VR. Is their idea to bring us guys in to fill from the bottom (for want of a better phrase)?
I wouldn’t want to break a strike, but even for those of us that have other professional careers, the job market is tough at the moment.. appreciate your thoughts..
I wouldn’t want to break a strike, but even for those of us that have other professional careers, the job market is tough at the moment.. appreciate your thoughts..
Last edited by legandawing; 13th Jul 2009 at 21:00.
Stallpusher
BA F/c don't need a Disruption Agreement. Passengers come first. Happy to operate to legal limits if safely possible on the day, to get the job done. Then back to the Bidline!
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Hey im just like you in the 'hold/talent pool' waiting for a training date. I wonder what will happen to us. How long have you been waiting?
I had my assessment in Feb 09. I know some people have waited ages but im excited to start. I understand we will not be on the same t&c's current crew have but that still hasn't put me off. I wonder what the future holds for us. I wonder if we will get temp contracts or permanent ones and on what fleets! So many questions.. I hope the current crew for BA reach an agreement nobody wants to see a strike.
I had my assessment in Feb 09. I know some people have waited ages but im excited to start. I understand we will not be on the same t&c's current crew have but that still hasn't put me off. I wonder what the future holds for us. I wonder if we will get temp contracts or permanent ones and on what fleets! So many questions.. I hope the current crew for BA reach an agreement nobody wants to see a strike.
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I understand we will not be on the same t&c's current crew have but that still hasn't put me off
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BASSA message getting through
I see the AGM made Sky News today. Apparently some "workers" are going to turn up with caged lemmings.
I think that's quite appropriate, although probably not in the way these "workers" intend....
I think that's quite appropriate, although probably not in the way these "workers" intend....
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Temp pool
Hi Legandwing and bks. The VR are for 2000 cc jobs, not 200. The company's intention is to absorb that work through increased productivity among existing crew plus 500 new starts on the new terms. I have no idea whether they will use the temp pool to recruit those 500...it sounds sensible to me.
However, they do want to keep a temp pool because they can use that group to ensure they keep recruitment at the lower level needed to cover the winter schedule and draw from the pool to cover seasonal increases in work.
Having asked about the new t&c for all new recruits (including temps) it is to be a basic of £11k plus approx £8k of performance based pay, so about the same total as now. The difference is there are no annual increments, which I don't suppose the temps got anyway.
The change to working is to be to fly to scheme, which won't mean a thing to you unless you've flown before.
I hope you get whichever works best for you...temp or perminent and hope to see you on a trip. I think we all hope there will not be a strike!
However, they do want to keep a temp pool because they can use that group to ensure they keep recruitment at the lower level needed to cover the winter schedule and draw from the pool to cover seasonal increases in work.
Having asked about the new t&c for all new recruits (including temps) it is to be a basic of £11k plus approx £8k of performance based pay, so about the same total as now. The difference is there are no annual increments, which I don't suppose the temps got anyway.
The change to working is to be to fly to scheme, which won't mean a thing to you unless you've flown before.
I hope you get whichever works best for you...temp or perminent and hope to see you on a trip. I think we all hope there will not be a strike!
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Beware pilots, there is a rally call on the other forums to come on here and attack pilots’ t&cs. They obviously have no other form of defence - BASSA at its' best.
Best ignore it, like you would a 5 year old - the mods will delete it all soon enough.
This childish mentally is exactly the reason why we are in the mess we are in. Go onto CrewForum or the BASSA forum where you can read page after page of “thanks lala…we support bassa 100%”. And I mean that literally – page after page of inane one liners. You would need to spend hours searching for an ounce of debate, an intelligent question, or even a discussion on the thread! The only other thing it is used for is attacking and threatening anyone who dares to dispute the BASSA gospel, or making rally calls to come on here or the ESS forum en masse to attack someone. Infantile to say the least.
The ESS forum is also fast becoming dominated by the militant few. Many posters cannot even understand a 4 line post without misinterpreting it, and attacking it vehemently without having thought it through.
How can there possibly be any basic level of understanding of the BA proposal vs the BASSA proposal if this is the level of astuteness that they (the militant minority) have? There are many, many crew who read and do not post, and I am sure that they are confused, bemused or both. I am also sure that they have much higher levels of intelligence than many of those that do post!
To those readers I say Please, read the BA proposals for yourself. Understand that they are not asking for a pay cut. They just want to work us harder. Decide for yourself whether you can give the level of work they need from us. Then vote accordingly. And if you feel you cannot give the level of work that BA require, think very carefully what the option might be. The dole queue – for approximately 35000 people in the London area. How easy will it be to get a job then, one with any T&C’s never mind the treacherous BA ones we appear so eager to turn down now?
Best ignore it, like you would a 5 year old - the mods will delete it all soon enough.This childish mentally is exactly the reason why we are in the mess we are in. Go onto CrewForum or the BASSA forum where you can read page after page of “thanks lala…we support bassa 100%”. And I mean that literally – page after page of inane one liners. You would need to spend hours searching for an ounce of debate, an intelligent question, or even a discussion on the thread! The only other thing it is used for is attacking and threatening anyone who dares to dispute the BASSA gospel, or making rally calls to come on here or the ESS forum en masse to attack someone. Infantile to say the least.
The ESS forum is also fast becoming dominated by the militant few. Many posters cannot even understand a 4 line post without misinterpreting it, and attacking it vehemently without having thought it through.
How can there possibly be any basic level of understanding of the BA proposal vs the BASSA proposal if this is the level of astuteness that they (the militant minority) have? There are many, many crew who read and do not post, and I am sure that they are confused, bemused or both. I am also sure that they have much higher levels of intelligence than many of those that do post!
To those readers I say Please, read the BA proposals for yourself. Understand that they are not asking for a pay cut. They just want to work us harder. Decide for yourself whether you can give the level of work they need from us. Then vote accordingly. And if you feel you cannot give the level of work that BA require, think very carefully what the option might be. The dole queue – for approximately 35000 people in the London area. How easy will it be to get a job then, one with any T&C’s never mind the treacherous BA ones we appear so eager to turn down now?
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Quote:
Well done Bealine for holding the fort whilst PiB is having a little sabbatical.
What, by posting complete rubbish? The same bealine who tried to claim (on Flyertalk) that the Church of England was BA's largest shareholder? And who is now so confused between shareholders and shares held, he thinks that the majority of shares in BA are held by private shareholders?
Quote:
I am very surprised that BA has not tried to scrap it, as mentioned before it is very inefficient and costly.
Perhaps BA are not trying to scrap it because the only person who thinks it inefficient and costly is you?
Well done Bealine for holding the fort whilst PiB is having a little sabbatical.
What, by posting complete rubbish? The same bealine who tried to claim (on Flyertalk) that the Church of England was BA's largest shareholder? And who is now so confused between shareholders and shares held, he thinks that the majority of shares in BA are held by private shareholders?
Quote:
I am very surprised that BA has not tried to scrap it, as mentioned before it is very inefficient and costly.
Perhaps BA are not trying to scrap it because the only person who thinks it inefficient and costly is you?
Never mind, as long as you deepen the departmental divisions, eh!
For once, Cabin Crew, Clerical Staff (even those at Watersplash), Check-In, Loaders, Coach Drivers are all together standing firm! Our Unions have offered Willie Walsh proposals which would yield more than the savings he wants but he rejected them out of hand because they are not on "his" terms. (His terms are open-ended - the cuts to our Terms and Conditions are to be left open for further hammering later on!)
Our Trades Unions will not call for strikes at this stage. The last thing anyone wants is foir anyone to harm British Airways - Willie Walsh and his band of idiots have done enough of that already, and caused a run on our shares and a number of passengers to cancel forward bookings. The Trades Unions are determined to act responsibly which is why the shareholders are being targetted.
Despite all the "bneed to save money" and all the compensation given to managers to take Voluntary Severance, a new HR manager was appointed yesterday from Royal Mail on a salary of £180,000 pa. A manager who was paid handsomely to go, is being employed by BA as a "Consultant" and earning £1000 per day.
I'm going to back out of the argument now - suffice to say that I have listened to both sides and I am standing firm with my colleagues and rejecting British Airways' proposals and agreeing to the TU alternative.
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A consultant very often is cheaper than having them on the loan list.
No pension contributions, specific task, typically more highly motivated than the employee (its the consultants livelyhood), you can get rid of them much more easily. etc etc.
WW doesn't want temporary savings. It wasn't clear to me at first as to why our savings should be permanent but I can see the way the world is unfolding. In my mind he is right. At the very least it will take a long time to recover from the current crisis.
I want us to be in the right position to take advantage when the ''good times'' come back.
No pension contributions, specific task, typically more highly motivated than the employee (its the consultants livelyhood), you can get rid of them much more easily. etc etc.
WW doesn't want temporary savings. It wasn't clear to me at first as to why our savings should be permanent but I can see the way the world is unfolding. In my mind he is right. At the very least it will take a long time to recover from the current crisis.
I want us to be in the right position to take advantage when the ''good times'' come back.
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Background Info
The attached may be useful background info. It's written by Steve Ridgway (Virgin Airways CEO), so not necessarily totally independent. However, the key data in his piece is a graph (from IATA) showing how premium traffic is suffering disproportionately in the current environment: a 19% drop in numbers but a 35% drop in revenue, suggesting very heavy discounting to get what premium passengers are out there.
He also makes a telling comment:
"However, it is highly likely that airline business models will need to change. If premium passengers don’t come back to the levels seen in 2007/8, and short-haul journeys are replaced by more rail traffic, then there will be widespread and more radical change in Europe."
I suspect BA's strategic thinking is not fundamentally different to the above. That's the background against which the current restructuring needs to be measured.
Full article (from FT's Alphaville blog) can be viewed at:
FT Alphaville » Blog Archive » Guest post: Steve Ridgway on the outlook for the airline industry
He also makes a telling comment:
"However, it is highly likely that airline business models will need to change. If premium passengers don’t come back to the levels seen in 2007/8, and short-haul journeys are replaced by more rail traffic, then there will be widespread and more radical change in Europe."
I suspect BA's strategic thinking is not fundamentally different to the above. That's the background against which the current restructuring needs to be measured.
Full article (from FT's Alphaville blog) can be viewed at:
FT Alphaville » Blog Archive » Guest post: Steve Ridgway on the outlook for the airline industry
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Originally Posted by bealine
For once, Cabin Crew, Clerical Staff (even those at Watersplash), Check-In, Loaders, Coach Drivers are all together standing firm! Our Unions have offered Willie Walsh proposals which would yield more than the savings he wants but he rejected them out of hand because they are not on "his" terms.
CC Top
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Repeat ´request & warning´.
Pilots´ terms and pilots´ new agreement with BA management have been discussed.
At length.
Everybody has had their say, enough already.
This thread will now concern itself with CC terms and conditions, CC negotiations and CC union practices.
Any post mentioning whatever the pilots have/might/should/will do, will be be deleted from this thread.
This applies to everybody.
Everybody as in pilots quoting how reasonable, tactically correct and cooperative BALPA has been, and CC mentioning how over-paid pilots are on the one hand and how push-over BALPA has been on the other.
I say again; posts mentioning anything about pilots apart from the fact that they fly the aircraft, will be deleted.
Posters who think this does not apply to them, will have their posting privileges revoked.
Thank you all.
Pilots´ terms and pilots´ new agreement with BA management have been discussed.
At length.
Everybody has had their say, enough already.
This thread will now concern itself with CC terms and conditions, CC negotiations and CC union practices.
Any post mentioning whatever the pilots have/might/should/will do, will be be deleted from this thread.
This applies to everybody.
Everybody as in pilots quoting how reasonable, tactically correct and cooperative BALPA has been, and CC mentioning how over-paid pilots are on the one hand and how push-over BALPA has been on the other.
I say again; posts mentioning anything about pilots apart from the fact that they fly the aircraft, will be deleted.
Posters who think this does not apply to them, will have their posting privileges revoked.
Thank you all.