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British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations

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British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations

Old 28th Nov 2009, 10:22
  #3721 (permalink)  
 
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Correct Desertia, it is shocking. And it doesn't support CFC's contention that "even the Yes voters do not want to strike or harm the company in any way, in fact most of the Yes voters have voted this way because of their passion and loyalty for BA which many on this thread just cannot see."

Passion and loyalty? Where? No I think passion and loyalty seems to be a euphemism for 'Cabin crew Ts & Cs are sacrosanct - go mess with everybody elses Ts & Cs!'.

There is every chance that the decrease in premium customer satisfaction ratings is due to the militants loudly harping on about their 'problems' in front of, and to, passengers (plenty of evidence of that going on). Unfortunately the customer satisfaction card/form process is deeply flawed anyway - cabin crew have been seen to destroy the forms from passengers that criticise them. I think the newer forms were designed with a seal-down flap to get past the problem of crew reading the forms. So seeing comments such as "encourage the pax to fill a comment card on the flight ensuring all flight details are on it. photo copy it and give BASSA a copy" is interesting - copy the form? I wonder how many rules (data protection?) that transgresses?
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Old 28th Nov 2009, 11:37
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A Lurker:
That wasn't a personal attack, just expressing an opinion. While you're showing ineterest in my opinions, please answer the following question which I have previously posted.

'Who will benefit, apart from other airlines, if BA CC go on strike?'
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Old 28th Nov 2009, 12:47
  #3723 (permalink)  
 
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Shocking posts on CF!

Perry Oaks,
Well done for copying the shocking posts from CF particularly the one by NJR@D1L !
I can't believe a fellow CSD is advocating this! It's irresponsible and negligent in my view and please be rest assured that we are not all like him/her.

Our changes come into effect on the 1st Dec and I for one will do my best as I accept the changes and have voted NO.
I'm not saying everything will be perfect, especially for us CSDs on the 767s without a Purser in ET on the Moscow, Larnaca and Athens.
However, if there are any relevant problems, I will give the appropriate feedback to BA so that any issues can be corrected which is what they'll do and expect.

Alexandraa, the choice is yours but in my opinion, voting No as I have, will save our jobs and everyone else's.
The changes are reasonable and acceptable and this is from someone who's been in BA since 1984..

Vote NO To Strike Action.

Last edited by Tiramisu; 28th Nov 2009 at 17:28.
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Old 28th Nov 2009, 12:49
  #3724 (permalink)  
 
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The odd pax opinion on these forums may shed a little light on the debate, but Fincastle seems to be getting a bit too involved.

Last edited by courtney; 28th Nov 2009 at 13:32.
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Old 28th Nov 2009, 13:26
  #3725 (permalink)  
 
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fincastle84

In answer to your question....

'Who will benefit, apart from other airlines, if BA CC go on strike?'

No-one will benefit at all - so why don't you email BA and ask them to withdraw their impositions then there will be no strike and none of our customers will be inconvenienced
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Old 28th Nov 2009, 13:48
  #3726 (permalink)  
 
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A Lurker

so why don't you email BA and ask them to withdraw their impositions then there will be no strike and none of our customers will be inconvenienced
Why didn't your Union use the opportunity to negotiate over the last 9 months like every other union in the company?

Why does BASSA think it is so special that all the effects of the past 2 years don't apply to them?

Why does BASSA feel that ALL other departments who have signed up to permanent cost savings should support BASSA in signing up to none, again?

Time for negotiation is past. BA stated quite clearly that if no negotiated agreement was reached then imposition would happen. Please don't tell me you are surprised or shocked about it?
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Old 28th Nov 2009, 14:10
  #3727 (permalink)  
 
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A Lurker:

Thanks for your clear & concise answer. Wobble2plank has echoed my thoughts exactly. You'll be glad to know that I won't bother you with any further questions; if I require any further clarification I'll have a chat with my garden wall!
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Old 28th Nov 2009, 14:35
  #3728 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by CFC
Alexandraa, a fine post.

A No vote will help in the evolvement of this (new) fleet which in turn, as you mention, will probably be an end to your flying career. On the other hand, a Yes vote sends out a clear message to WW/BF that we as a workforce are not happy with their latest style of imposition and suggested future of BA.
The ballot is not about sending a message. WW and Bassa have repeatedly said this ballot is about striking, and that you have to be prepared to walk out on day one, with all the risks that action entails. Comments like yours reinforce the Board's impression that lots of people will vote, but very few will actually walk on the day, and will thus result in Bassa's total humiliation.

A No vote, followed by instructions to your new union leaders to negotiate and to consult its members on where it is prepared to contribut your department's fair share of the cost savings required, would show BA's cabin crew to be the mature, sensible and conscientious group we all know they can be. Having spoken to so many cabin crew on this issue I know how the vast majority want that consultation and negotiation, which would result in the effects of New Fleet being minimised.

A Yes vote will just result in a failed strike and total imposition of New Fleet. It's not a way of sending a 'message'.
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Old 28th Nov 2009, 14:37
  #3729 (permalink)  
 
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Tiramisu

It gives me no pleasure cut and pasting individuals comments from other forums, but I have been increasingly shocked at the comments made, especially by NJR or Whattimedoweland as he is known on this forum.

These people are definitely in the wrong job!
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Old 28th Nov 2009, 14:45
  #3730 (permalink)  
 
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Could anyone of the 'Yes' voters please outline the sequence of events they hope will occur after the strike commences, and explain why and how they will happen?

I've yet to hear anyone on this forum, or anyone I've spoken to, explain how this action will work in practice. Has it been thought through?
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Old 28th Nov 2009, 16:04
  #3731 (permalink)  
 
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Originally posted by Perry-oaks
These people are definitely in the wrong job!
Perry-oaks, I agree.
What I fear is that they will compromise those of us who work and have voted NO and we'll end up even worse with costs being claimed from IFCE for Industrial Action.
BASSA have a death wish on their hands and are not going to win this, I'm afraid.
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Old 28th Nov 2009, 16:11
  #3732 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks for your replies.

I chose to post on this forum because if I would to post on either BASSA or CrewForum, both with very harsh attitudes, about my confusion as to whether how I should vote, they would have given me "wake up and smell the coffee" response. I remember on one occassion when I said I was confused about how to vote and a so called colleague asked me if I was stupid and I'm a bit concerned I would get the same response at any of those forums. For some crew it's obvious how to vote and many of them made up their minds around a year ago. I don't blame them for having made up their minds. I wish I wasn't confused but there are far too many mixed messages from both BA and UNITE. One of my friends said that I could at least vote yes to support the majority and still go to work but I could never do that. I want to vote for what I believe in. And, I have been following this thread for a very long time and there are a lot of valuable and informative points.

BA's proposal is fair and they have removed many of their previous suggestions i.e. removing double night stops at some destinations. They probably realised that we would be hitting our 900 hours quicker and be more tired and affected by jetlag. They probably knew that many crew were concerned about having to sit at home on 24HR for weeks. BASSA suggested B2B to the Middle East and I am not the smartest person on earth but I have never understood how Middle East B2B could save any money when you think about having to accommodate all of the crews in LHR, pay them B2B allowance and 3 days off as opposed to 2 days now which trips to the Middle East gives. It wasn't accepted so there's no really point for me to bring it up. It just came to my mind.

I'm not denying that service in Club World hasn't been affected. I meant that the service in all other cabins, in my experience, haven't been affected because the crew levels are the same and the service hasn't changed. BA says that their most important customers are travelling in Club World and it makes sense that the CSD has been put to work there. Yes, the service takes a lot longer and the CSD is not available to deal with other things which what they have done before. The crew in Club World do work very hard and even harder after the immposition but we knew this would happen if an agreement hadn't been reached before November 16th. It doesn't mean that I'm happy with it but this is where we are today and we have to deal with it accordingly. I don't think the solution is to take a hostile attitude towards the passengers who are de facto paying our wages and what makes BA stay in business. There is a lot of competition and they could easily choose another airline and abandon BA for good. I think the same would be with a strike. Again, I'm not the smartest person on earth but I think a strike in these times would have very little support from the public because many have lost their jobs and struggling financially. Like, my mother is one of them and she has moved in with me because she hasn't been able to get another one. To go on a strike would perhaps be thought of as a bit "luxury" and that we should be glad to at least have a job to go go. There are many of them who would happily take them.

Fincastle84 asked a couple of questions.

Will BA making any money with their aircraft sitting on the ground? No.
Will the employees have a job if BA fails? No.
Even if BA survives, will your loyal customers return? I don't know. Some of them would. Some of them wouldn't. With so much competition and many airlines with better service they can just sit down and happily pick somebody else to fly with.

Another issue is if you were to go on a strike. Some say that you can't be sacked. Others say you can. I talked to one of BASSA's reps when I was in their office to discuss something else and they said BA can't sack if you and even if they could they wouldn't have the guts to do it. Mixed messages.

BA cabin crew are paid well and even though discussing money is taboo there's no point in denying this fact. Many do work very hard and are doing a very good job but improvements could be made. I'm having a go at EF again but that's where most of them could probably be made. It's a bit about efficiency and it could probably be bearable if negotiated properly.

I'm full-time crew and I can't work any more than what I do. Fortunately we have been able to avoid any CR for the time being but I would happily accept the 2.61% pay cut and work as many hours as I do today if it meant that I would keep my job. Some of my friends were recruited in 1997 when they introduced a new contract and they say it's easy for me to say this because I'm on the old contract recruited in 1996 and my basic is almost higher per month than what they earn including allowances. There's huge gap even though it's only a year and it might be easy for me to say it but I was recruited under those termsn. I can't help it. I can't afford to lose my job and I think all of us should be pleased that we've got one to go to. However BA is not asking for us to take a pay cut but a two year pay freeze which was suggested by UNITE. They are also asking us to work a bit harder. If it means that we will keep our jobs, I can't see the issue.

I wish that UNITE and BA would negotiate properly instead. It's very sad that it had to go this far because I, and probably many others, have been pushed into a corner not knowing what to do.
gl
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Old 28th Nov 2009, 16:16
  #3733 (permalink)  
 
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You mention you have done some flights already with not much change....I have and have seen a notable drop in service to our most loyal premium pax. If you doubt me, volunteer for No6 -777 or No7 -747 on your next trip, then come back to this forum and say how it went.
This one made me chuckle.

Bear in mind that the number of personnel conducting the service has not changed! One has been dropped and the poor old CSD has been forced to get out of their office, stop watching the in flight movie and grab a trolley.

Sadly the only ones who complain about the audacity of the company to 'force' them to do this are the ones who never bothered to get out of the CSD 'office' in the first place. I am pleased to know that the majority of CSD's did this as a matter of course and they have noticed no difference in the working routines.

The routine is perfectly workable, just ask LGW, the service can be to a high standard IF THE CREW WISH IT TO BE SO.

If I have to file an ASR due to the cabin not being ready for landing then the CSD/Purser name will be at the front of the narrative.

Have fun.
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Old 28th Nov 2009, 16:58
  #3734 (permalink)  
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From a couple of reports I've had, ballot papers have been sent to a number of people who aren't eligible to vote (for example, those who are taking Voluntary Redundancy). It is highly likely BA will ask the courts to render the ballot invalid as a result. Wonder how much it will cost to run another one?
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Old 28th Nov 2009, 17:15
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From a couple of reports I've had, ballot papers have been sent to a number of people who aren't eligible to vote (for example, those who are taking Voluntary Redundancy). It is highly likely BA will ask the courts to render the ballot invalid as a result. Wonder how much it will cost to run another one?
HF - yes we have been raising this issue for some time now. It demonstrates complete ignorance on the part of the union not to have even considered this issue. Attempts to raise it directly with the Union are met with contempt. They are now texting and asking people for names of people who have taken VR and been sent a ballot. Rocket science it is not.

Alexandraa, don't put yourself down. You have demonstrated intelligence and maturity in considering both sides of the debate, and are arriving at your own conclusion. We don't need to tell you which way to vote - you are smart enough to make up your own mind and I feel you probably already have!

One thing I will say, don't sit on the fence. Not voting at all is like voting yes as only the returned votes count. If you do vote No, do not be scared or intimidated. You are not alone, and there will be many of us coming to work on strike days, if indeed the Union haven't already failed at the first hurdle.
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Old 28th Nov 2009, 17:21
  #3736 (permalink)  
 
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Originally posted by Human Factor
From a couple of reports I've had, ballot papers have been sent to a number of people who aren't eligible to vote (for example, those who are taking Voluntary Redundancy).
I heard the same too last Thursday from one of the EF CSDs who said that a fellow CSD who had taken VR has received a ballot paper.
Will this render the ballot Null and Void?
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Old 28th Nov 2009, 17:24
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HiFlyer14

If at the time the ballot was called those taking VR where still paid up members of the Union and had not left British Airways then they are fully entitled to vote - even if they subsequently leave the company prior to the 14th of December.

If people receive a ballot paper who are not entitled to vote - then they are not entitled to vote and that is a different matter.

And as it seems to be the fashion for many people to add a VOTE NO strapline to the bottom of their posts then I shall do one myself

Vote Yes And Support BASSA
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Old 28th Nov 2009, 17:36
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A Lurker,

If at the time the ballot was called those taking VR where still paid up members of the Union and had not left British Airways then they are fully entitled to vote - even if they subsequently leave the company prior to the 14th of December.
Are you completely sure?

As far as I was aware if the member had agreed a severance deal with the company then they were no longer eligible to take part in any form of balloting which might result in industrial action.

It hardly seems fair that they agree to take redundancy with a pay off package and then leave the company facing IA whilst they whistle off to their next rendezvous.

I think you will find that they should not be part of the ballot.

My signoff effort!

Vote no and teach the BASSA leadership the truth behind withholding the truth

Last edited by wobble2plank; 28th Nov 2009 at 19:08.
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Old 28th Nov 2009, 19:48
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It's a bit late in the day here in the Far East, but if someone here can suggest copying BASSA with every negative feedback form (that doesn't criticise the person pushing for it I assume), could I suggest that everyone please make sure that if they are slightly suspicious that criticism of a BASSA dinosaur might not make it back to the company, that they pocket it and post it or email their comments when they land.

Similarly, if you've voted no, please let your manager know, so that the company can actually sort out the wheat from the entirely deplorable chaff.

I do believe our national flag carrier can beat these greedy, self serving pre-privatisation dinosaurs and become a company that looks after the very employees that the BASSA dinosaurs are trying to use to look after their own cushty numbers.

And what pompous, er, person thinks passengers shouldn't be involved in this discussion?

It shows the colours of these idiots that they think passengers have no right to discuss this issue.

VOTE NO AND QUIT BASSA!

(And remember that many of us "passengers" love cabin crew, we just hate the detestable BASSA DINOSAURS trying to use you to look after themselves!).
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Old 28th Nov 2009, 20:22
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If at the time the ballot was called those taking VR where still paid up members of the Union and had not left British Airways then they are fully entitled to vote - even if they subsequently leave the company prior to the 14th of December.
A Lurker - this is complete nonsense. What source is this "information" from, outside of the Union?

As a fully paid up member, well until the end of November anyway , I am FURIOUS that the union have done this, and each and every member should be too. How can it possibly be fair? Those people may well have voted maliciously - either yes or no. They won't give a toss because they won't be here to suffer the consequences.

There is in the region of 1000 people who could have voted that have absolutely NOTHING TO LOSE either way. That is approx. 10% of the vote. I suspect only a judge will be able to decide, but I would imagine the court application to block a strike is already underway.

If anyone was under any doubt about the ignorance, incompetence and sheer inefficiency of this Union, this must surely clarify things. They have caused us near on 2 years' worth of stress over New Fleet yet done absolutely nothing constructive about it, they have not asked for and therefore not represented OUR views, and now they haven't even the common sense to run a ballot effectively. It is a shameful waste of the members' hard-earned funds.

Vote No. And save your union subscription - resign.


The above represents my own personal views, and not those of BA.
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