British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations

[wobble2plank]

There is nothing different about BA CC except that their archaic, overstaffed and over paid Union have foisted this situation on to them with the absolute minimum of information.

What will be the basis for IA then WSW? What nugget of the massive broad brush T's & C's reason that was included on the ballot form will be the catalyst?

BASSA HAD TO BALLOT if imposition was used, they said they would and they are now caught between a rock and a hard place. They lost the injunction, the court case will be interesting to watch given all of the BASSA bluster over the past few months and IA, irrespective of the vote, will not happen.

A yes vote won't get Willie Walsh thrown out on his ear, he has the backing of the board, shareholders, Iberia etc. A yes vote won't get the cessation of the new rules as they are fundamental to the ongoing viability of the company. A yes vote won't stop the formation of 'New Fleet' as that could only have been tempered/stopped with adult negotiation.

Also why does this 'imposition' come as such a shock to the BASSA hard liners? BASSA agreed that productivity needed to increase if costs were to be kept down. Now that those requirements are knocking the door down BASSA cry 'foul!'?

So, what are the nefarious plans from Mount BASSA for the future struggle in the glorious fight against the dark armies of the black BA management? Oh, that's correct, BASSA will win the court case and everyone will get back payments for the terrible hardships they have had to endure working at 'normal' industry crewing levels.

Only in LaLa land.

[Watersidewonker]

Trust BA management i'd rather get Doctor Shipman look after my folks for the weekend.

P.S i know he is no longer alive.

[Carnage Matey!]

flyeruk - just to be clear, new fleet was taken off the table by BA months ago. Thats negotiation. BASSA exaggerated the value of their proposal, then when they were found out they had a show of hands at a union meeting to confirm a position of no further concessions to BA. That's not negotiation. BASSA turned up after the negotiation deadline with the news crews in tow to say how hard done by they were. Thats not negotiation. BASSA refused to turn up to ACAS talks, or sit in the same room as a CC89 rep. Thats not negotiation. BASSA now want BA to go back to a blank sheet of paper and start all over again. Thats not negotiation!

[Desertia]

Again for the illiterate. I do not bash BASSA the union, and I've stated that I see value in unions. BASSA could have done all manner of good over this past year instead of their petulant, schoolgirl foot-stamping. The current BASSA leadership are slubberdegullions and ne'er-do-wells and BASSA members are being sold out and used.

This is not BASSA-bashing, it's BASSA LEADER-bashing and I'll keep doing it until enough of it gets through the BASSA propoganda and the members find out how badly their amateurish dramatic society have represented them.

Perhaps reading in the paper that there are soon to be a few hundred more trained CC on the dole queue, who would happily swap places with them, will make BASSA members a little bit more suspicious when their leaders tell them the recession is over and all is well - which is of course complete and utter rubbish.

The removal of power from these witless union oligarchs can only be a good thing for both the company and the cabin crew.

And I cannot even begin to understand the intelligence of someone who enthuses about the idea of "IA" as if in some way it is a good thing. That's like a lemming saying "I can't wait to jump off the cliff!".

[flyeruk69]

Carnage Matey, just to be clear, the new fleet was taken off the table a few months ago then reintroduced in an e mail from the leader of IFCE to the cabin crew community , then decided to tell the cabin crew community they were willing to look at alternatives in a video available on the BA intranet. If you think that's negotiation so be it ,your entitled to your opinion.

As for who refused to meet with who during the ACAS meetings, I very much doubt you or anyone on the forum were actually present at the time. so it boils down to who's side of the story and the rumour mill you decide to listen to and make a judgement.

[Glamgirl]

I still don't understand why all of a sudden First and WT/WT+ passengers have to be let down, because of the new crewing levels. Now, there seem to be a deluge of reports where "not my aisle" is prominent. What happened to team work, folks? It really isn't that difficult to reset a seat (IFE gone wrong) - anyone can do it (yes, even me!). The crewing levels haven't been reduced in any other cabin than Club. So the CSD has to work on a trolley.

Nobody, it seems, has been able to answer why it works at LGW, having operated with these crewing levels for over 3 years. Is it because we're more efficient? Is it because we have better team work? I wouldn't like to think so, but I do wonder.

I also think it's a great shame that a certain amount of crew refuse to read ESS/media/other information sources. This isn't a great way to gain knowledge.

Hearing about Go-Arounds because the cabin couldn't be secured in time is worrying, as it means priorities aren't being focussed on. I certainly hope that this isn't done on purpose, to "emphasise" the crew reduction. Yes, 40 and 20 minutes to landing call on LH is always hectic, but come on. Seriously, it isn't that difficult to do 2nd service on flights. Yes, I know the product itself in Club for 2nd service is a nightmare, but with some organisation and preparation, it's not too difficult.

Maybe I'm being harsh here, but having read some reports and talking to people, I can't help it right now. Oh, and do remember, that just because you refuse to use ESS/are part time/off sick, doesn't give you an excuse for not knowing what's going on. If you want to do a good job, you do your home work. Isn't it better to spend 30 minutes to know your stuff instead of looking like a bit of a plonker when you haven't got a clue? I certainly do my home work, I take pride in doing my job well, regardless what I think of Walsh, Francis, my manager and the unions.

Remember: It's not the passenger's fault!

Gg

(Sorry for the rant, had to get it off my chest)

[Hotel Mode]

Carnage Matey, just to be clear, the new fleet was taken off the table a few months ago then reintroduced in an e mail from the leader of IFCE to the cabin crew community , then decided to tell the cabin crew community they were willing to look at alternatives in a video available on the BA intranet.

FlyerUK - Just to be clear - New fleet came off the table because BASSA were so against it. Given that now the new fleet savings were not been realised the cost savings fell entirely on existing crew. BASSA didnt like that either. So guess what? New fleet returned to the proposals. Its not rocket science.

No doubt if existing crew would take the pay cuts required it can come off again.

To Summarise

The savings must be made. Either it comes mostly from the new fleet and partly from existing T+Cs, or it comes entirely from existing T+Cs. Neither is not an option.

[Carnage Matey!]

I think Hotel has summed that up nicely. From the outset BASSAs stance has been that they would not make the savings required and so have sought to drag the process out as long as possible in the hope that the problem would go away. Nor did they ask crew if they'd be willing to make the savings. That's not negotiation.

PS My source was inside the Big Brother house when negotiations were ongoing and is a neutral party. He said even ACAS despaired at BASSAs behaviour, but I suppose it'll all come out in court, if Unite can bear to let it go that far.

[wobble2plank]

Also don't forget that BASSA came to the table with the 'temporary solutions to temporary problems' mantra.

All of the cost savings they devised were to be repaid back to the company after 2 years.

As the company had already agreed with most other departments a permanent change to T's & C's this was seen as both unfair and unworkable.

BASSA then point blank refused to negotiate on the basis of permanent change.

Look back through the BASSA newsletters and you will find all of the tantrums laid out there.

[winstonsmith]

Glamgirl

Hearing about Go-Arounds because the cabin couldn't be secured in time is worrying, as it means priorities aren't being focussed on. I certainly hope that this isn't done on purpose, to "emphasise" the crew reduction. Yes, 40 and 20 minutes to landing call on LH is always hectic, but come on. Seriously, it isn't that difficult to do 2nd service on flights. Yes, I know the product itself in Club for 2nd service is a nightmare, but with some organisation and preparation, it's not too difficult.

That's exactly what I pointed out a couple of days ago.

Read about a crew member's experience about a flight to DEL on CrewForum. This particular crew member worked in WT and WTP. Remember - same amount of crew in those two cabins - yet they were struggling to secure the cabin and informed the CSD that they needed more time because they had not finished collecting headseats, putting away trolleys and clear the galley. This particular crew member had to scream at passengers to put their tables away and did not have enough time to assist a passenger with ear ache.

It sounds more like poor planning by the crew in WT and WTP and has nothing to do with having one less crew member on the aircraft - and apparently a complaint has been forwarded to O.H. Parsons about this trip because it is a safety issue.

Excuse me - laughable!

[winstonsmith]

Glamgirl

Nobody, it seems, has been able to answer why it works at LGW, having operated with these crewing levels for over 3 years. Is it because we're more efficient? Is it because we have better team work? I wouldn't like to think so, but I do wonder.

They do not have a logical or sensible answer. The truth hurts and the behaviour of UNITE towards this issue is disgusting. Why was it not an issue when it was introduced at LGW? Because they did not care.

This is the only defense which some of the LHR CC seem to use - LGW operates many leisure routes and on those passengers have less expectations on service. LHR attracts a different clientele and they have higher expectations of course.

[Hotel Mode]

and apparently a complaint has been forwarded to O.H. Parsons about this trip because it is a safety issue.

Maybe i should write to them about the crew who only managed Cabin Secure at 300ft about a month before the changes. If its getting that tight then they're coming off breaks too late.

[winstonsmith]

A couple of crew seem to be worried over a specific clause in the contract which says:

"The Company reserves the right to make reasonable changes to any of your terms of employment from time to time. Such changes may be made by way of a general notice applicable to all employees or by way of specific notice to you."

(Clause 18)

[Hotel Mode]

This is the only defense which some of the LHR CC seem to use - LGW operates many leisure routes and on those passengers have less expectations on service. LHR attracts a different clientele and they have higher expectations of course.

Which is ironic, because as soon as some LHR crew fly a leisure route like LAS, MRU or CPT they complain how demanding the leisure pax are.

[Flap62]

If there are instances of aircraft going around because the cabin is not secure when the 40 and 20 minute calls have been correctly given then it is time to start ASRing the problem with full details of when the crew breaks occurred and if crew took breaks on sectors that were not appropriate (NY etc).
A go-around is not a mickey-mouse event. It has significant safety implications for the aircraft, air traffic and other operators.

[midman]

Originally Posted by flyeruk69

There are some very strong views and opinions through out this thread and it's a brave person who goes against the the general consensus without fear of being shouted down by the majority here in much the same way as people on here have been complaining the so called Bassa militants do.

Why do you need to be brave? It's an anonmyous forum available to anyone who has a relevant opinion. I seem to recall some posters who post pro-Bassa opinions being praised for doing so in a factual, logical manner. It's the slogan spouting rabble rousers who get short shrift here. In fact, your post was one of those I would welcome to see more of, as it forces me to review my opinion, and to have to develop good argument to counter your (in my view) erroneous points.

Originally Posted by flyeruk69

"I think it’s the minimum that we need to do to address what’s clear to everybody is a cost challenge within the business"
That quote should make every BA employee sit up and worry, if it's the minimum we need to do what else is being planned ? Where's the point where you enough is enough ? Ryanair type conditions of employment ?

Doesn't everyone want him to cut the minimum needed to put the business on a secure footing for the future? Would you have preferred him to do the maximum he could possibly do to extract excess cost from the company?
To take that as a threat that it's just the start of cuts, and so conclude that Bassa shouldn't negotiate doesn't make sense. Start talking and establish baselines, and negotiate on issues that the membership can afford to change (eg disruption etc)

Originally Posted by flyeruk69

As for being honest in negotiations and the information coming out of the BA propaganda machine, is it any wonder the cabin crew do not trust BA management when , just one example, the new fleet was tabled, then taken off the table and a few weeks ago it was reintroduced and in the last few days BA have suggested they are willing to "explore" alternatives to the new fleet. This isn't from bassa but from the leader of BA IFCE.
This isn't negotiation, it's playing with people's emotions and fears resulting in a very deep mistrust of the BA IFCE management and the leadership team.

As had already been mentioned, New Fleet was taken off the table as cc had told management they saw it as a huge threat. BA said they were doing that in response to cabin crew's views and in the hope it would bring Bassa back to the negotiating table. Bassa didn't return, so in the absence of a negotiated agreement, New Fleet returns. I'd do the same. If I was trying to achieve something through compromise with someone and they refused to budge, eventually I would do as I had originally wished. It's a no-brainer.

Originally Posted by flyeruk69

the UK justice system works in it's own mysterious way and often the outcome is hardly predictable........ time will tell.

So your future is on the toss of a coin, or do you think the court will rule in Bassa's favour, saying that the new crew complements are unsafe, despite the CAA and the courts having set the law on this already?
The outcome isn't ever 100%predictable, but sometimes it's more predictable than others.

I can only repeat what I have said before, this whole thing is about power and control. Bassa are used to setting the agenda, they tell BA when they will meet and what they will discuss. They tell BA what service standards are acceptable and they tell BA whether flights can operate or not. What Bassa leaders fear is the loss of their control over the department, which is what BA are now proposing. The only power the Bassa leaders now have is a threat of IA, but, FlyerUK, what can it possibly achieve?

(I'm genuinely interested to hear an explanation of what Bassa hope will happen after the IA is announced and then taken.)

[midman]

Originally Posted by winstonsmith

Read about a crew member's experience about a flight to DEL on CrewForum. This particular crew member worked in WT and WTP. Remember - same amount of crew in those two cabins - yet they were struggling to secure the cabin and informed the CSD that they needed more time because they had not finished collecting headseats, putting away trolleys and clear the galley. This particular crew member had to scream at passengers to put their tables away and did not have enough time to assist a passenger with ear ache.

It sounds more like poor planning by the crew in WT and WTP and has nothing to do with having one less crew member on the aircraft - and apparently a complaint has been forwarded to O.H. Parsons about this trip because it is a safety issue.

As it was a safety issue, presumably the CSD put in an incident report?

The trouble is the CSD would be on a sticky wicket handing in his report as the DEL is non-long range, there is no requirement, industrially or scheme, for ANY rest, and the WW Long Range agreement states that "the CSD must ensure, when allocating rest, that the service levels are maintained". Sounds like a poor cabin management issue to me, especially as there are the same number of cabin crew in WT as there were before the changes. I hope the CSD has a good explanation.

[Jockster]

Recently there have been (regrettably) some demotions of flight crew from Captain to Co-pilot for 'poor performance'.....some temporary, some permanent. This is unfortunate and upsetting for all concerned yet is shows that flight ops have a 'bottom line' standard which they are not prepared to compromise.

Perhaps poor performing CSDs and pursers, ie those that can't manage the securing of the cabin in a timely manner, should also be demoted for 'poor performance' because they are unable to cope with the new challenge of reduced crew compliments or is the ability to adapt not a leadership requirement amongst cabin crew CSDs and pursers?

[wobble2plank]

Given that when BA tried to implement a 'training' scheme of 6 monthly SEP checks for those crew who failed their SEP exams BASSA cried 'Corporate Bullying!'

So, whilst every pilot can and must live under the threat of being demoted such a system doesn't apply to the CSD's/Pursers.

Perhaps it will be written in to New Fleet?

[Tiramisu]

Originally posted by Watersidewonker
I can't wait until the result (YES) is out im betting on a New Year IA so don't canx your Xmas parties yet.

Watersidewonker,

Are you for real?

Yes guys, please don't cancel anything because there will be many like me who will be working and I'll even be prepared to come in to work on Christmas and New Year's day which are my days off to stop flights from being cancelled!

I will cross the picket line to come to work to do a great job!

Vote NO to Strike Action, please!