British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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Hi Tomkins,
I see your point. Of course,that's the case on Worldwide in First and Club World.
On Eurofleet, it's just a case of the removal of Hot towels, Nuts on Band 4, Pretzels and skybites and cookies replacing sandwiches. On short flights, the impact is minimal and passengers are getting used to it. I haven't noticed too much of an impact on my Band 4 flights with the reduction in premium traffic, not yet anyway. But time will tell.
I see your point. Of course,that's the case on Worldwide in First and Club World.
On Eurofleet, it's just a case of the removal of Hot towels, Nuts on Band 4, Pretzels and skybites and cookies replacing sandwiches. On short flights, the impact is minimal and passengers are getting used to it. I haven't noticed too much of an impact on my Band 4 flights with the reduction in premium traffic, not yet anyway. But time will tell.
Last edited by Tiramisu; 24th Nov 2009 at 22:20.
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HighFlyer14 and Tiramisu, hello!
I have had very similar experiences to you both. I am starting to notice a trend.
During conversations with old contract colleagues quite a few voice their first concern as 'imposition'.
I point out that a minority of BASSA members threw out BA's offer (2nd July), on the 6th July on behalf of everyone else, (other BASSA members not at the meeting).
But the main point for them is will BA do the same again? Who knows, but my guess is a negotiation will have to take place in order to avoid that, so ask the people you pay your subs to!
With new contract crew, a lot of them voice concerns about a reduction in pay. Again, in response I point out that the travel payment is a consolidation of various allowances EXCLUDING meal allowances to protect crews pay. (Based on this years money, which will be higher than next years). Meal allowances remain unchanged and the company have only suggested it to placate those exact fears crew have raised. In other words BA are offering this because crew have asked for that gaurantee, we can't have it both ways. Ah, but we can, I have asked a very senior manager if it is an option and they said 'YES'. So, if you don't like it don't do it! (I also make the point that BASSA wanted it members to take a pay cut of over 2.5% in it's counter proposal).
It's enough to make ya blood boil, nite, nite!
During conversations with old contract colleagues quite a few voice their first concern as 'imposition'.
I point out that a minority of BASSA members threw out BA's offer (2nd July), on the 6th July on behalf of everyone else, (other BASSA members not at the meeting).
But the main point for them is will BA do the same again? Who knows, but my guess is a negotiation will have to take place in order to avoid that, so ask the people you pay your subs to!
With new contract crew, a lot of them voice concerns about a reduction in pay. Again, in response I point out that the travel payment is a consolidation of various allowances EXCLUDING meal allowances to protect crews pay. (Based on this years money, which will be higher than next years). Meal allowances remain unchanged and the company have only suggested it to placate those exact fears crew have raised. In other words BA are offering this because crew have asked for that gaurantee, we can't have it both ways. Ah, but we can, I have asked a very senior manager if it is an option and they said 'YES'. So, if you don't like it don't do it! (I also make the point that BASSA wanted it members to take a pay cut of over 2.5% in it's counter proposal).
It's enough to make ya blood boil, nite, nite!
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Clarified is spot on.
My experience of a 767 crew on Eurofleet last week, 3 crew admitted they didn't understand what the dispute was about and were afraid to ask in case they were shouted down. Sadly they had all voted anyway!
My experience of a 767 crew on Eurofleet last week, 3 crew admitted they didn't understand what the dispute was about and were afraid to ask in case they were shouted down. Sadly they had all voted anyway!
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Hello to you too, Clarified.
I did ask BF about the MTP being an option and he confirmed it too. Apparently, if you opt in 2010, you can opt out in 2011 and revert back to the old payment. It's worth considering, in my view.
Goodnight, I'm up at the crack of dawn!
I did ask BF about the MTP being an option and he confirmed it too. Apparently, if you opt in 2010, you can opt out in 2011 and revert back to the old payment. It's worth considering, in my view.
Goodnight, I'm up at the crack of dawn!
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Ottergirl,
The vitriol seen on this forum thread, in my experience doesn't ebb into my life at work, the cabin crew all do their best serving the customers to the best of their ability given the totally new routines introduced this month. Those who think being cabin crew give out a few drinks and meals and be generally nice to the passengers there's a lot more to it and quite often the passenger sees a swan and miss the the desperate paddling underneath.
The fundamentally changed the working positions and responsibilities are so comprehensive the crew are finding it difficult to get rid of the old routines and responsibilities from their heads and implant the new ones, not easy when the old routines have been in place for 20 odd years and where second nature to the majority of crew on worldwide.
It's not ideal an in my view introduced far to quickly for any sort of smooth transition, there will be teething problems and the inevitable tweaks.
The vitriol seen on this forum thread, in my experience doesn't ebb into my life at work, the cabin crew all do their best serving the customers to the best of their ability given the totally new routines introduced this month. Those who think being cabin crew give out a few drinks and meals and be generally nice to the passengers there's a lot more to it and quite often the passenger sees a swan and miss the the desperate paddling underneath.
The fundamentally changed the working positions and responsibilities are so comprehensive the crew are finding it difficult to get rid of the old routines and responsibilities from their heads and implant the new ones, not easy when the old routines have been in place for 20 odd years and where second nature to the majority of crew on worldwide.
It's not ideal an in my view introduced far to quickly for any sort of smooth transition, there will be teething problems and the inevitable tweaks.
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It's not ideal an in my view introduced far to quickly for any sort of smooth transition, there will be teething problems and the inevitable tweaks.
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The vitriol that spills out here is truly perplexing and thankfully does not seem to be reflected on the line.
I totally agree with you that the current climate on the line is extremely professional in the fact of such uncertainty and the possibility of IA.
I must be honest and say that I don't see much vitriol on this thread except that that comes from a minority of posters who seem to have the warped idea that anyone who posts an opinion on here is a Cabin Crew hater. Ironically nothing could be further from the truth it is just that certain posters have swallowed to BASSA rhetoric pill so completely they cannot see the woods for the trees!
The vast majority of posters on this thread and the previous thread want good, reliable and accurate representation for the Cabin Crew. The exasperation and annoyance occasionally voiced within these posts are aimed squarely at the lies, maltruths and irresponsible attitude of those who are there to represent the majority membership of BASSA. Nothing more.
You, the Cabin Crew, have been backed into a corner by your Union with warped facts, lack of communication outside of some chest beating mass meetings and a smear campaign of leaflets that contain no fact.
This has been shown by, I would say, the majority of crew STILL having no idea as to what the IA is about!
Be very, very careful how you use your vote, be absolutely sure you know why you are voting and what the possible, legal or not legal, consequences may be.
Best of luck.
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Ottergirl,
As someone who has been "mentioned in dispatches", I would echo W2P and stress that I have no beef with BA cabin crew or any other. I know what an exceedingly rewarding job it can be, but I also have great personal knowledge of just how absolutely awful it can be (which is why BA CC is considered a job to which many other airlines' employees aspire; BA's 'awful' is still a lot better than some airlines I could mention!).I have many friends in the cabin crew community in several airlines in several countries. I have seen CC take an astonishing amount of guano for no reason and swallow it, when I myself would never have tolerated such things. I've written several letters of praise over the years to the bods in charge of CC, and I hope it's had a positive (and even monetary or seniority) effect!.
I have also seen, in some cases senior, cabin crew be so detestable both to their own colleagues and passengers that I've called them out for it and written similar letters to the airline's management. I don't pay good money to sit on aircraft, even in economy, to feel uncomfortable and unwelcome. But these are individuals and there are always exceptions to the law of averages.
I do however have a beef with the selfish and ignorant BASSA leaders who I can plainly see not only misrepresent BA CC, but put their jobs at risk with a litany of lies, half truths and outright deception.
Unfortunately, this kind of behaviour will not convince a High Court judge, because he will have ALL of the facts at his disposal.
I've had dealings with trade unions since the 70's, and thankfully the days of militant trade unionists ruining the country and its industries are almost over.
Yes, there is still definitely a place for trade unions in business. They are an important buffer between company and employees for many important issues which could otherwise be ignored or forgotten.
But they are not bigger than the company, and they don't own the company, so the sooner BASSA learn this simple fact or, better still for the benefit of most members, disappear, the sooner BA can get back to recovery, and its employees can get back to generating profits, and negotiating with the company in a sensible manner to eventually be given their share of them.
Hmmm, did someone mention shares? BASSA certainly didn't!
As someone who has been "mentioned in dispatches", I would echo W2P and stress that I have no beef with BA cabin crew or any other. I know what an exceedingly rewarding job it can be, but I also have great personal knowledge of just how absolutely awful it can be (which is why BA CC is considered a job to which many other airlines' employees aspire; BA's 'awful' is still a lot better than some airlines I could mention!).I have many friends in the cabin crew community in several airlines in several countries. I have seen CC take an astonishing amount of guano for no reason and swallow it, when I myself would never have tolerated such things. I've written several letters of praise over the years to the bods in charge of CC, and I hope it's had a positive (and even monetary or seniority) effect!.
I have also seen, in some cases senior, cabin crew be so detestable both to their own colleagues and passengers that I've called them out for it and written similar letters to the airline's management. I don't pay good money to sit on aircraft, even in economy, to feel uncomfortable and unwelcome. But these are individuals and there are always exceptions to the law of averages.
I do however have a beef with the selfish and ignorant BASSA leaders who I can plainly see not only misrepresent BA CC, but put their jobs at risk with a litany of lies, half truths and outright deception.
Unfortunately, this kind of behaviour will not convince a High Court judge, because he will have ALL of the facts at his disposal.
I've had dealings with trade unions since the 70's, and thankfully the days of militant trade unionists ruining the country and its industries are almost over.
Yes, there is still definitely a place for trade unions in business. They are an important buffer between company and employees for many important issues which could otherwise be ignored or forgotten.
But they are not bigger than the company, and they don't own the company, so the sooner BASSA learn this simple fact or, better still for the benefit of most members, disappear, the sooner BA can get back to recovery, and its employees can get back to generating profits, and negotiating with the company in a sensible manner to eventually be given their share of them.
Hmmm, did someone mention shares? BASSA certainly didn't!
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An update on the state of the industry, given BASSA's insistence that everything is looking rosy.
JAL had to obtain government approval to receive up to $1.1 Billion in emergency loans aimed at preventing the money losing company from grounding flights.
<some non-relevant text deleted>
Struggling JAL booked $1.5 Billion in losses in the first half of the fiscal year, and faces interest-bearing debt totalling nearly $10 Billion." - Associated Press.
Oops - forget to mention Gulf Air who are losing an estimated $200 million a month, and have plans which include "substantial job losses".
JAL had to obtain government approval to receive up to $1.1 Billion in emergency loans aimed at preventing the money losing company from grounding flights.
<some non-relevant text deleted>
Struggling JAL booked $1.5 Billion in losses in the first half of the fiscal year, and faces interest-bearing debt totalling nearly $10 Billion." - Associated Press.
Oops - forget to mention Gulf Air who are losing an estimated $200 million a month, and have plans which include "substantial job losses".
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Fantastic post from Desertia, I wish more CC were able to read such an account of reality that unfortunately is so much missed from the various Forums including the BA one.
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Bmi have announced a major restructuring including grounding 9 aircraft, 600 jobs to go and the closing of the final salary pension scheme to further accruals.
Does this help to place the current imposed changes with BA CC into some sort of perspective?
Does this help to place the current imposed changes with BA CC into some sort of perspective?
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WWW. What will IA achieve?
Welcome back to WWW. We've missed your erudite contributions to this discussion.
You are obviously keen on IA. What in your expert opinion will IA achieve, apart from even greater losses being inflicted on BA?
You are obviously keen on IA. What in your expert opinion will IA achieve, apart from even greater losses being inflicted on BA?
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I have noticed a big emphasis on the probability of a 'yes' vote when the result is announced on 14th Dec. (Most recently by WSW) As though it's only the ballot result that matters? I don't think anybody, anywhere is expecting anything other than the usual ecstatic leaping, cheering and whooping to be broadcast nationwide on the teatime news programs. The reception by the traveling public and other staff groups, of this display of uninformed, utterly selfish glee, will be just as catastrophic as it was the last time!
But the real problem is, this result itself is meaningless.
Any yes vote will not force anyone to 'think again' or 'return to the table' (I thought it was BASSA that kept leaving it?)
The inevitable outcome of the 14th Dec will be an attempt by BASSA to commence some form of IA. Only then will we see the end game. It is difficult to predict the precise sequence of events, nor the level of personal disaster. Only the final outcome is assured. The only result that counts, will not suit BASSA!
Be careful out there.
But the real problem is, this result itself is meaningless.
Any yes vote will not force anyone to 'think again' or 'return to the table' (I thought it was BASSA that kept leaving it?)
The inevitable outcome of the 14th Dec will be an attempt by BASSA to commence some form of IA. Only then will we see the end game. It is difficult to predict the precise sequence of events, nor the level of personal disaster. Only the final outcome is assured. The only result that counts, will not suit BASSA!
Be careful out there.
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As Spin doctor pointed out, do the huge job losses over at bmi put your 'argument' into perspective?
The lifestyles of over 600 of your industry 'colleagues' are about to have theirs changed , possibly, forever.
Adapt or disappear is what is required at most of the worlds airlines. What is so different about BA cc??
The lifestyles of over 600 of your industry 'colleagues' are about to have theirs changed , possibly, forever.
Adapt or disappear is what is required at most of the worlds airlines. What is so different about BA cc??
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Is it too late?
As a Silvercard holder with Gold in sight, I have decided to vote with my feet. Paying double for half the service you get on award winning middle eastern carriers, does not make sense!
A reduced (premium) product is one thing, getting this served by unfriendly crew that can only spout BASSA rethoric is quite another!
I had one exception during 6 businness class sectors in the past month where the crew served the reduced offerings with a smile and a joke; believe me it made up for the 2nd choice meal!!!
A reduced (premium) product is one thing, getting this served by unfriendly crew that can only spout BASSA rethoric is quite another!
I had one exception during 6 businness class sectors in the past month where the crew served the reduced offerings with a smile and a joke; believe me it made up for the 2nd choice meal!!!
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There are some very strong views and opinions through out this thread and it's a brave person who goes against the the general consensus without fear of being shouted down by the majority here in much the same way as people on here have been complaining the so called Bassa militants do.
There is a lot of Bassa bashing on this forum, what about BA in these negotiations ? Ok BA didn't believe the proposals from Bassa went far enough so BA dismissed the proposals, in my view, was a place to start meaningful negotiations. Some of the onus for the failed talks has to sit firmly at BA's door, negotiation is a two way street.
I'm sure most of you have read the interview and article in the FT at the weekend with Willie Walsh. One of the things he said was-
"I think it’s the minimum that we need to do to address what’s clear to everybody is a cost challenge within the business"
That quote should make every BA employee sit up and worry, if it's the minimum we need to do what else is being planned ? Where's the point where you enough is enough ? Ryanair type conditions of employment ?
As for being honest in negotiations and the information coming out of the BA propaganda machine, is it any wonder the cabin crew do not trust BA management when , just one example, the new fleet was tabled, then taken off the table and a few weeks ago it was reintroduced and in the last few days BA have suggested they are willing to "explore" alternatives to the new fleet. This isn't from bassa but from the leader of BA IFCE.
This isn't negotiation, it's playing with people's emotions and fears resulting in a very deep mistrust of the BA IFCE management and the leadership team.
I wish I had a Chrystal ball to predict what the out come of the pending court case will be, as some feel they can do on here, the UK justice system works in it's own mysterious way and often the outcome is hardly predictable........ time will tell.
The BMI announcment is not a great suprise and it's only what BA have and are doing.
There is a lot of Bassa bashing on this forum, what about BA in these negotiations ? Ok BA didn't believe the proposals from Bassa went far enough so BA dismissed the proposals, in my view, was a place to start meaningful negotiations. Some of the onus for the failed talks has to sit firmly at BA's door, negotiation is a two way street.
I'm sure most of you have read the interview and article in the FT at the weekend with Willie Walsh. One of the things he said was-
"I think it’s the minimum that we need to do to address what’s clear to everybody is a cost challenge within the business"
That quote should make every BA employee sit up and worry, if it's the minimum we need to do what else is being planned ? Where's the point where you enough is enough ? Ryanair type conditions of employment ?
As for being honest in negotiations and the information coming out of the BA propaganda machine, is it any wonder the cabin crew do not trust BA management when , just one example, the new fleet was tabled, then taken off the table and a few weeks ago it was reintroduced and in the last few days BA have suggested they are willing to "explore" alternatives to the new fleet. This isn't from bassa but from the leader of BA IFCE.
This isn't negotiation, it's playing with people's emotions and fears resulting in a very deep mistrust of the BA IFCE management and the leadership team.
I wish I had a Chrystal ball to predict what the out come of the pending court case will be, as some feel they can do on here, the UK justice system works in it's own mysterious way and often the outcome is hardly predictable........ time will tell.
The BMI announcment is not a great suprise and it's only what BA have and are doing.