BA and Project Columbus III
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Have BASSA said how much their proposal will save?
And what is the amount that BA need IFCE (or whatever the department is called!) to save ?
And what is the amount that BA need IFCE (or whatever the department is called!) to save ?
Still amazed over their suggestion for further B2B's which seems to be their central point in the proposal. I can't understand how this would save the company.
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The point is everybody seems to say that Bassa do not negotiate beyond 'no'
With that aside, the Unite National Secretary has today sent no less than 3 letters to BA. Good news I hear you ask? Asking for talks to resume perhaps?
Err no I'm afraid not. The subject matter is:
A. Underming (his spelling mistake not mine) BA's position (last week's publicity)
B. Harrassment of employees (due to unpaid work request)
C. First Staff travel for Board Members (I kid you not)
So with only two days to go the thing uppermost in the National Secretary's mind is -- Whether board members and their families should be allowed to travel in First.
It beggars belief.
Is this really what they are paid to do? I so want my subscription money back.
Last edited by HiFlyer14; 28th Jun 2009 at 14:18.
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The Bassa proposal smacks of a lack of preparation and thought. It, together with the pointless letters to WW, show they are "playing the man, not the ball", to paraphrase our own mods.
The pilots' pay deal, which was negotiated over months and costed with agreement from both management and Balpa to achieve known, quantifiable savings, came to 2.61% of basic pay. Bassa simply state "2.61% pay cut for us too, oh and an LTIP, just like they got" (So much for our "rolling over too easily").
Is it an attempt to once again hitch a ride with Balpa's negotiators, or a sop to their own members who demand equal treatment as pilots, or is it a carefully crafted proposition that hits the targets and coincidentally matches the pilots deal to two decimal places??
The allowances arrangement is complex, inefficient and therefore expensive. The obvious answer is a complete restructuring, whilst minimising any effect on crewmembers. Bassa suggest binning the telephone allowance. The financial equivalent of sticking two fingers up to your fellow negotiators.
The bulk of the proposal consists of back-to-backs to the middle east. This will obviously take complexity out of the business, save money, and increase flexibility. Oh, silly me, no it won't. If the company thought they could save many tens of millions of pounds doing ME back to backs, wouldn't they have done it already? (And what are global linear marks? If they want to describe a geographical area using lat/long, they should ask a pilot.)
Bassa is on its last legs, is fighting to stay in power and convince its members that it is relevant by using rhetoric and personally directed vitriol. But the facts speak louder and more eloquently. There is no logic to the proposal, it's a mash up of point scoring suggestions and uncosted wishlisting.
There are so many great crewmembers out there who deserve better representation than this. I'd suggest they get in touch today and tomorrow with their reps and tell them what they want them to negotiate, but I don't think it would do any good.... would it?
The pilots' pay deal, which was negotiated over months and costed with agreement from both management and Balpa to achieve known, quantifiable savings, came to 2.61% of basic pay. Bassa simply state "2.61% pay cut for us too, oh and an LTIP, just like they got" (So much for our "rolling over too easily").
Is it an attempt to once again hitch a ride with Balpa's negotiators, or a sop to their own members who demand equal treatment as pilots, or is it a carefully crafted proposition that hits the targets and coincidentally matches the pilots deal to two decimal places??
The allowances arrangement is complex, inefficient and therefore expensive. The obvious answer is a complete restructuring, whilst minimising any effect on crewmembers. Bassa suggest binning the telephone allowance. The financial equivalent of sticking two fingers up to your fellow negotiators.
The bulk of the proposal consists of back-to-backs to the middle east. This will obviously take complexity out of the business, save money, and increase flexibility. Oh, silly me, no it won't. If the company thought they could save many tens of millions of pounds doing ME back to backs, wouldn't they have done it already? (And what are global linear marks? If they want to describe a geographical area using lat/long, they should ask a pilot.)
Bassa is on its last legs, is fighting to stay in power and convince its members that it is relevant by using rhetoric and personally directed vitriol. But the facts speak louder and more eloquently. There is no logic to the proposal, it's a mash up of point scoring suggestions and uncosted wishlisting.
There are so many great crewmembers out there who deserve better representation than this. I'd suggest they get in touch today and tomorrow with their reps and tell them what they want them to negotiate, but I don't think it would do any good.... would it?
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I googled 'global linear marks'. Nothing seems to match. In fact the only thing that did match was 2.61%, how odd it's exactly the same as the pilot offering.
I'm sure by now BASSA members reading this thread will be embarrassed by this clumsy attempt at 'negotiation', so I too hope that some common sense will prevail, I have no wish to see the vast majority of crew stuffed by their own union
I'm sure by now BASSA members reading this thread will be embarrassed by this clumsy attempt at 'negotiation', so I too hope that some common sense will prevail, I have no wish to see the vast majority of crew stuffed by their own union
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overstress,
BASSA members don't seem bothered at all with their proposal. If you read CF you will see that most of the members are pleased with BASSA:s and UNITE:s proposal.
Some don't like the thought of losing another purser and a main crew has to do their job without being compensated. Many airlines have a working position as galley operator and they don't pay anything additional for that. The purser in CW is actually more or less working in the cabin as "main crew" and supported by the CSD during the meal service. I can't really see any difference there.
BASSA members don't seem bothered at all with their proposal. If you read CF you will see that most of the members are pleased with BASSA:s and UNITE:s proposal.
Some don't like the thought of losing another purser and a main crew has to do their job without being compensated. Many airlines have a working position as galley operator and they don't pay anything additional for that. The purser in CW is actually more or less working in the cabin as "main crew" and supported by the CSD during the meal service. I can't really see any difference there.
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An outside perspective:
If you read this forum you are left with a clear picture of BASSA being, well....a little like a spoilt child. When members like SP PiB and so on post here they are very quickly left looking silly...in fact one of them has been found out openly lying!
This leaves you thinking BASSA don't have a clue...
but then you start to consider the history. This is a union that has consistantly got what it's wanted. It's memebers are far overpaid and underworked because of BASSA's efforts over the years right? Each time a situation arises, BASSA gets slammed as a stupid kid but....Cabin Crew end up winners.
Now don't get me wrong, isee the tactics BASSA are using by withholding info, turning it into a hate game against WW etc etc./..but against all reason i'm starting to suspect that BASSA will come out winners again.
The polar opposite counter proposal has to be part of the plan, surely?
I have a feeling that the silly demands are there for one reason..to be dropped. Just like BA has asked for some stupid stuff, so has BASSA. Then counter proposals happen untill both are left with a win-win.
Or am i being silly?
If you read this forum you are left with a clear picture of BASSA being, well....a little like a spoilt child. When members like SP PiB and so on post here they are very quickly left looking silly...in fact one of them has been found out openly lying!
This leaves you thinking BASSA don't have a clue...
but then you start to consider the history. This is a union that has consistantly got what it's wanted. It's memebers are far overpaid and underworked because of BASSA's efforts over the years right? Each time a situation arises, BASSA gets slammed as a stupid kid but....Cabin Crew end up winners.
Now don't get me wrong, isee the tactics BASSA are using by withholding info, turning it into a hate game against WW etc etc./..but against all reason i'm starting to suspect that BASSA will come out winners again.
The polar opposite counter proposal has to be part of the plan, surely?
I have a feeling that the silly demands are there for one reason..to be dropped. Just like BA has asked for some stupid stuff, so has BASSA. Then counter proposals happen untill both are left with a win-win.
Or am i being silly?
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2 Days to Armageddon
For those of you who have been bullied into working for free to enhance Willie Walsh's future pay reward package, you will lose your holiday pay entitlement for the period!!!!
Two days will be deducted if you opted to work for a month for free!!!
Didn't anyone ever tell you, never volunteer for anything in British Airways.
Two days will be deducted if you opted to work for a month for free!!!
Didn't anyone ever tell you, never volunteer for anything in British Airways.
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nuigini
You miss the point, with respect, if you give all destinations equal attractiveness by eliminating allowances and move to hourly rate, then there will be no mad scrambling.
edit: Sorry, just read your posting properly, get rid of allowances, pilots did it, just negotiate the hourly rate to reflect a fair return...
Trips will be awarded by seniority, but pay will level out....
You miss the point, with respect, if you give all destinations equal attractiveness by eliminating allowances and move to hourly rate, then there will be no mad scrambling.
edit: Sorry, just read your posting properly, get rid of allowances, pilots did it, just negotiate the hourly rate to reflect a fair return...
Trips will be awarded by seniority, but pay will level out....
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SP, nuigini, everyone is getting less money and it will come your way soon.
The point is, there are ways of negotiating to minimise how much you lose
If you don't change, things will be changed for you and you won't have a say.
Now's your chance, I urge you to take it.
The point is, there are ways of negotiating to minimise how much you lose
If you don't change, things will be changed for you and you won't have a say.
Now's your chance, I urge you to take it.
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A bidding system for rostering is far better than someone else deciding where you fly to. You would have choice, currently there is little choice other than on the few request trips per year which are not always guaranteed.
An hourly flying payment is also far better than the current allowance system. It appears everyone looks at the trips that pay the highest allowances and then compare that with hourly flying pay.
Try comparing an hourly rate to the allowances on the trips that currently pay the lowest meal allowances and see what can be gained.
An hourly rate flying pay system would actually pay more than allowances do on most trips.
An hourly flying payment is also far better than the current allowance system. It appears everyone looks at the trips that pay the highest allowances and then compare that with hourly flying pay.
Try comparing an hourly rate to the allowances on the trips that currently pay the lowest meal allowances and see what can be gained.
An hourly rate flying pay system would actually pay more than allowances do on most trips.
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Stall pusher,
From someone who has only just recently joined this debate:
You seem to be intent in finding a reason to undermine any of our (pilot) agreements. Whilst you state that you can speak with authority about bid line etc you are only recounting 'anecdotal' conversations with flight crew. I gather from reading your posts that although you seem to try and 'research' our agreements (again only it would appear through conversations) you don't actually understand how the whole system works. If you did, you would realise that none of us get anything for free in BA.
The senior guys get what they want through bidding, and the vast majority of us accept that. As far as I know, amongst a very large circle of FOs and Capts, trips swaps usually only take place if if suites the swapee (hope that makes sense...) and seniority doesn't really come into it!!!
From our SEP forums (you know, the ones in which you think our managers encourage us to 'brainwash' crew - a funny thought by the way) BA are more than happy with bidline! It saves money in countless ways, ranging from days off swaps to trip preferences and a reduction of sickies!!! (people are less likely to go sick if they know that the had a chance of getting what they want!!!) To suggest otherwise is at best naive and at worst an attempt at being divisive between CC and FC. Data protection is a big red herring!
I'm sure I have flown with you, because you remind me of one of my crew who was the type of person who would argue that 2+2 is not 4.....
If you feel that we have been let off lightly then you are simple deluded and spoiling for an argument! Look at the BALPA document (there are a few copies doing the rounds) read it and try and understand the implications! Also, consider what we have done over the years (5-6 at least) to become more flexible and efficient and compare to your agreements.
Finally, and I stress, this is NOT personal (well from my POV anyway). We are not crew/Bassa haters. I would be the first to admit that in the past I never would have trusted BA/management, but the whole economic situation is very different and almost uncharted that I have had to think long and hard!
SS
From someone who has only just recently joined this debate:
The problem for cabin crew in BA, is that the Flight Crew have been let off lightly compared with the destruction of cabin crew T&C's, yet their wasteful and inefficient Bid Line is left intact. The reason I can be so authoritative about the stunts that some senior crew pull, is that they boast to me about it in cosy chats on the Flight Deck.
The senior guys get what they want through bidding, and the vast majority of us accept that. As far as I know, amongst a very large circle of FOs and Capts, trips swaps usually only take place if if suites the swapee (hope that makes sense...) and seniority doesn't really come into it!!!
From our SEP forums (you know, the ones in which you think our managers encourage us to 'brainwash' crew - a funny thought by the way) BA are more than happy with bidline! It saves money in countless ways, ranging from days off swaps to trip preferences and a reduction of sickies!!! (people are less likely to go sick if they know that the had a chance of getting what they want!!!) To suggest otherwise is at best naive and at worst an attempt at being divisive between CC and FC. Data protection is a big red herring!
I'm sure I have flown with you, because you remind me of one of my crew who was the type of person who would argue that 2+2 is not 4.....
If you feel that we have been let off lightly then you are simple deluded and spoiling for an argument! Look at the BALPA document (there are a few copies doing the rounds) read it and try and understand the implications! Also, consider what we have done over the years (5-6 at least) to become more flexible and efficient and compare to your agreements.
Finally, and I stress, this is NOT personal (well from my POV anyway). We are not crew/Bassa haters. I would be the first to admit that in the past I never would have trusted BA/management, but the whole economic situation is very different and almost uncharted that I have had to think long and hard!
SS
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. I do get the point as the attractiveness would disappear and some destinations, such as Indian nighstops and LAD, would actually benefit of such a system. However I think you will find some crew not willing to do longer flights, like SIN, and receive less pay as to what it's worth today.
What would happen then?
An hourly rate means it evens out your salary over the year and minmises the chances of abusing the rostering system.
Anyone saying they are unwilling to do a singapore for less than they get now has seriously misunderstood the ba cc remuneration system.
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Stallpusher (I think you mean Stickpusher - stallpusher is an inaccurate term that only has a tenuous link to real life
)
I reckon that's put your Bidline diversion back in its box.
Perhaps now you can explain why this Bassa proposal is so 'elegant'?
) I reckon that's put your Bidline diversion back in its box.
Perhaps now you can explain why this Bassa proposal is so 'elegant'?
It does appear that BASSA are clutching at straws. However, history tells us that it is a tactic that has worked well for them in the past. I suppose time will tell.
I sympathise with anyone that is going to lose out either way. I also feel that if it does turn nasty in the next few months, there will be a lot of very unhappy crew at work. At what point does ones' health come before a vehicle to earn money?
I sympathise with anyone that is going to lose out either way. I also feel that if it does turn nasty in the next few months, there will be a lot of very unhappy crew at work. At what point does ones' health come before a vehicle to earn money?
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Does anyone see any parallels between the government of Iran and the leadership of BASSA? Faced with a challenge to it's existence the government blames external forces for fomenting trouble (namely the British) and BASSA blames external forces for fomenting trouble (namely the pilots). Not that I'm claiming BASSA are a self-serving, undemocratic theocracy who are primarily concerned with preserving the perks of a select few. I mean they're not religious at all!
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If any of you are in doubt as to the determination of Willie Walsh, try and see a programme called The Leaders, on CNBC. (I do not know if CNBC programs end up on youtube.)
I caught part of this program last night when it was mentioned about the staff being locked out when they went on strike at Aer Lingus and that WW said the airline would not start up again until the situation (ie negotiations) were resolved.
There is similar determination from him now, though I doubt it will result in BA being shut down, but whatever he has in mind it will be a serious attempt at settling things once and for all ....until the next down turn warrants a similar move of course
I caught part of this program last night when it was mentioned about the staff being locked out when they went on strike at Aer Lingus and that WW said the airline would not start up again until the situation (ie negotiations) were resolved.
There is similar determination from him now, though I doubt it will result in BA being shut down, but whatever he has in mind it will be a serious attempt at settling things once and for all ....until the next down turn warrants a similar move of course
Last edited by keel beam; 29th Jun 2009 at 13:30.
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I don't think a lock out would work anything like as well as it did at Aer Lingus. A primarily short haul airline can sort itself out within a few days once service recommences. A primarily long haul airline like BA would take a further two weeks to sort out the mess. He'll need a different plan this time.
