BA and Project Columbus III
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Service was fine on the last LGW long haul flight I took too, so it can't be down to crew numbers. Interestingly I remember operating a rammed shorthaul flight (those were the days) and expecting the crew to struggle to complete service in time. Imagine my surprise when they were all wrapped up with time to spare and still managed to call us every 20 mins regular as clockwork. Turns out 3 of the 4 crew were ex-Concorde and used to working fast whilst delivering premium service. Perhaps we need more of them in the cabin, and those who find it foo arduous should perhaps look for a more sedentary role in life?
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So what's a bassa member to do?
Should I stay, or should I go-go?
Stay a member and hope that my NO STRIKE vote (as it looks that it'll be coming to that) add's up with all the others to finally end the tyranical hold of bassa on BA?
OR
Resign now and just get-on with it?
Gg: if you read this - just want to reassure you that you won't be alone working flights if it does come to a strike.
Stay a member and hope that my NO STRIKE vote (as it looks that it'll be coming to that) add's up with all the others to finally end the tyranical hold of bassa on BA?
OR
Resign now and just get-on with it?
Gg: if you read this - just want to reassure you that you won't be alone working flights if it does come to a strike.
Last edited by TorC; 24th Jun 2009 at 02:24. Reason: my inability to spell
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Torc and GG maybe you can form a breakaway union? You can call it "
" or ""? For every one of you there are a 100 who will do the right thing.
This isn't about me being militant its about me just wanting WW to compromise. Personally I can't wait for next week and the following few weeks. And if BA goes under so be it.
And by the way XYZ I do have a problem with you and I won't be sending you a private message - I would rather say what I have to say to you in the open.
" or ""? For every one of you there are a 100 who will do the right thing.This isn't about me being militant its about me just wanting WW to compromise. Personally I can't wait for next week and the following few weeks. And if BA goes under so be it.
And by the way XYZ I do have a problem with you and I won't be sending you a private message - I would rather say what I have to say to you in the open.
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SP
A touch of the Hare and Tortoise there.
Deltaguy
Hmm.. more like the otherway round if previous strikes by CC are anything to go by.
Judging by the comments on this thread by CC, they would not back up your statement.
Lets face it, this has been brewing for awhile. BASSA are so cocksure of themselves. Do you think WW isn't prepared for a strike by CC? He has had months to prepare contingencies.
Despite the slight softening of tone from WW yesterday he is ready for battle and there will be a lot of bloodshed .......
So, there is "no immediate threat" to our business.
Deltaguy
For every one of you there are a 100 who will do the right thing.
Judging by the comments on this thread by CC, they would not back up your statement.
Lets face it, this has been brewing for awhile. BASSA are so cocksure of themselves. Do you think WW isn't prepared for a strike by CC? He has had months to prepare contingencies.
Despite the slight softening of tone from WW yesterday he is ready for battle and there will be a lot of bloodshed .......
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SP, the Government will not save BA.
Do you not remember last December? Woolworths shut down last December, with the permanent loss of 813 stores and 30000 staff.
No bail out, no help, and no Woolworths.
Do you not remember last December? Woolworths shut down last December, with the permanent loss of 813 stores and 30000 staff.
No bail out, no help, and no Woolworths.
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I think SP's last post has revealed BASSA's delusional thinking.
This is not just about short term savings. The cost implications of the change in CC contracts is, indeed, for the short term. The long term view however is for the status of BA as an investment opportunity thus leading to the generation of funds that will enable fleet rotation, route exploration and product enhancement.
The word in the city is that BA is an investment opportunity IF, and it is a very big IF it can rid itself of the militant, unionistic shackles that have caused it so much grief in the past. The fight that is brewing is for the future plans of BA whilst achieving the required short term savings at the same time. The company simply cannot have unions issuing strike ballots for a tick list of 12 different things and then causing £100 million of disruption the company could just about afford it then but what about the future? It is high time we rid BA of unions that disagree with everything the company says at the drop of a hat, negotiation is fine but when have BASSA ever negotiated? It has always been BASSA imposition. Now the boot is on the companies foot and suddenly BASSA don't like or accept imposition.
Trust me WW will not let this opportunity slip. You claim he is ineffective, I would beg to differ, I think he is playing a very high stakes game and I think as we move to the end game, he will win. He will have a contingency plan in place. I think also that the city is waiting for the result as well and have alot of faith in WW. If it goes the right way for BA and we have a less militant workforce on fixed contracts with industry standard salaries then the investment will come. BA has always been a profitable concern hence an investment opportunity, albeit a long term one. If not then I think we will be tipped over the edge to the Abyss.
As for the managers? If you were to bother to look at management contracts around London you will find that they are all roughly the same. They are performance based contracts leading to a slightly lower basic pay for the position with performance related bonuses. Work hard, do well for the company and you are rewarded. Don't do well and the contract goes. High stakes for high pay. I don't begrudge the managers their contracts, I have been in a similar position (not for the airlines) in the past and I hated it. Lots of pressure and rubbish paperwork and deadlines. Believe me they earn their money in a pressure environment far divorced from the nice work environment we all enjoy on the aircraft.
They have agreed no bonuses for two years. That is their addition. In the future though they will return to their bonus driven contracts in line with the rest of their peer group.
Where do the CC stand within their peer group? Hmmm, somewhat above! Welcome to the short sharp economic correction followed by the long drawn out growth period.
6 days.
Savings from cabin crew contracts will make no difference to whether BA survives or not.
The word in the city is that BA is an investment opportunity IF, and it is a very big IF it can rid itself of the militant, unionistic shackles that have caused it so much grief in the past. The fight that is brewing is for the future plans of BA whilst achieving the required short term savings at the same time. The company simply cannot have unions issuing strike ballots for a tick list of 12 different things and then causing £100 million of disruption the company could just about afford it then but what about the future? It is high time we rid BA of unions that disagree with everything the company says at the drop of a hat, negotiation is fine but when have BASSA ever negotiated? It has always been BASSA imposition. Now the boot is on the companies foot and suddenly BASSA don't like or accept imposition.
Trust me WW will not let this opportunity slip. You claim he is ineffective, I would beg to differ, I think he is playing a very high stakes game and I think as we move to the end game, he will win. He will have a contingency plan in place. I think also that the city is waiting for the result as well and have alot of faith in WW. If it goes the right way for BA and we have a less militant workforce on fixed contracts with industry standard salaries then the investment will come. BA has always been a profitable concern hence an investment opportunity, albeit a long term one. If not then I think we will be tipped over the edge to the Abyss.
As for the managers? If you were to bother to look at management contracts around London you will find that they are all roughly the same. They are performance based contracts leading to a slightly lower basic pay for the position with performance related bonuses. Work hard, do well for the company and you are rewarded. Don't do well and the contract goes. High stakes for high pay. I don't begrudge the managers their contracts, I have been in a similar position (not for the airlines) in the past and I hated it. Lots of pressure and rubbish paperwork and deadlines. Believe me they earn their money in a pressure environment far divorced from the nice work environment we all enjoy on the aircraft.
They have agreed no bonuses for two years. That is their addition. In the future though they will return to their bonus driven contracts in line with the rest of their peer group.
Where do the CC stand within their peer group? Hmmm, somewhat above! Welcome to the short sharp economic correction followed by the long drawn out growth period.
6 days.
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Andy. You do not know. Why would you say otherwise? What have got to gain by not supporting your union and throwing yourself at the mercy of Walsh. Nothing. Why don't you go on a QF cabin crew forum and ask them what they think of Geoff Dixon. Look what happened to them because they did not have a strong union?
The huge majority of BA cabin crew avoid this forum and this thread in particular because the few cabin crew who post here are completely unrepresentative. They are mavericks with nothing to say but stab their colleagues in the back, although of course, if a good deal is worked out they will take it.
Walsh's last missive is very interesting because there is a change of tone. If any of you here were BA staff you would have read it, as it is in your ESS mail. So perhaps a compromise may be available. Walsh is tough and the union has got to make him believe that if he does impose change, the button will be pushed. What some people here fail to realise is that if you are not united behind your union, the chance of a strike is actually increased as Walsh may think that there is a split. If a walk out is assured 100%, then he is more likely to negotiate.
This is why BALPA were so relieved to get a deal, as they know the pilots had no stomach for a fight. Even if the OpenSkies contracts had been pulled out the drawer and laid before them, it would have been inconceivable that they would take any sort of industrial action.Their settlement was purely political to get them onside and as you can see on this thread, they are trying to get everyone else to roll over, as a cabin crew or GSS strike may spoil their summer barbecue plans. What is so funny is that the Flight Crew don't see it that way, they think it was a victory for "intelligent negotiating" which found an "elegant solution". It is laughable.
Wobble. All the problems that BA has had in the last few years is nothing to do with alleged "militant unions". It has been managerial cock ups which I do not need to list again here. Investment will come to BA when there is a change of management. These are the people who have cost BA hundreds of millions and undermined its prestige. It is the employees of those so called "militant unions" who have worked so hard in the face of angry customers, to put things right and get T5 working as it should. Now our reward is to have our T&C's slashed. NO way.
The huge majority of BA cabin crew avoid this forum and this thread in particular because the few cabin crew who post here are completely unrepresentative. They are mavericks with nothing to say but stab their colleagues in the back, although of course, if a good deal is worked out they will take it.
Walsh's last missive is very interesting because there is a change of tone. If any of you here were BA staff you would have read it, as it is in your ESS mail. So perhaps a compromise may be available. Walsh is tough and the union has got to make him believe that if he does impose change, the button will be pushed. What some people here fail to realise is that if you are not united behind your union, the chance of a strike is actually increased as Walsh may think that there is a split. If a walk out is assured 100%, then he is more likely to negotiate.
This is why BALPA were so relieved to get a deal, as they know the pilots had no stomach for a fight. Even if the OpenSkies contracts had been pulled out the drawer and laid before them, it would have been inconceivable that they would take any sort of industrial action.Their settlement was purely political to get them onside and as you can see on this thread, they are trying to get everyone else to roll over, as a cabin crew or GSS strike may spoil their summer barbecue plans. What is so funny is that the Flight Crew don't see it that way, they think it was a victory for "intelligent negotiating" which found an "elegant solution". It is laughable.
Wobble. All the problems that BA has had in the last few years is nothing to do with alleged "militant unions". It has been managerial cock ups which I do not need to list again here. Investment will come to BA when there is a change of management. These are the people who have cost BA hundreds of millions and undermined its prestige. It is the employees of those so called "militant unions" who have worked so hard in the face of angry customers, to put things right and get T5 working as it should. Now our reward is to have our T&C's slashed. NO way.
Last edited by Stall Pusher; 24th Jun 2009 at 08:48.
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Stall Pusher,
You have held up your rickety ivory tower for so long you've got your head in the clouds.
The adjustment for CC is going to be painful. I really do feel for those who have said that they have become used to the current wage and it will be difficult to re-adjust.
BA CC, for all their worth, are not worth what they are being paid in todays environment. A quick benchmark check will clarify that.
As to:
What is laughable is that once again the Flight Crew have taken external advice (PriceWaterhouseCoopers), have a good clear oversight of the problems, held meetings and forums with the business leaders and ALL members have had the opportunity to quiz both BALPA and BA on the current situation. At the end of this 3-4 month process we have come up with a level headed solution to a major problem.
What has BASSA's approach been? As usual an emotion driven rant that 'it's not all as bad as that' and 'WW is the devil incarnate and wants to rob us of money' followed by 'temporary pain, temporary measures' without once bothering to actually assess the situation fully and carefully. Very little communication with its members, whom BASSA expect to follow their lemming like lead without question. 'We know what's best for you! (as long as you are long haul, senior crew, living abroad)'.
The economic situation is real, the forward bookings are down, yield is through the floor and there is no relief in sight. APD is going up, travel plans and mentality have changed, fuel price is on the way back up and still, still you can't see a problem? The scene is set and now you come up with:
This is exactly the 'gun to the head' approach that has caused BASSA to be so reviled in the past. Public opinion is dead set against BASSA. The company will have a legal contingency plan in force for your 100% strike. It will be deemed illegal and sacking will occur. Add to that SOSR in the following tribunal and you have a real and dangerous job loss scenario. Still you wish to push for 100% strike vote.
Go for it, I don't mind watching a door on a flight for a few weeks.
Yes alot of the financial grief was cause by bad and difficult management decisions. They paid for that with their jobs. The investment community view that sort of thing a 'temporary' glitches with immediate solutions. The constant, overriding threat of union action is a totally different scenario, there is little rhyme or reason to some actions. Strike action over 'ingrowing toenails'? Diversion disruption? etc. etc. etc.
Every time there is a proposed change within the workforce we hit this wall. Time to change.
You have held up your rickety ivory tower for so long you've got your head in the clouds.
The adjustment for CC is going to be painful. I really do feel for those who have said that they have become used to the current wage and it will be difficult to re-adjust.
BA CC, for all their worth, are not worth what they are being paid in todays environment. A quick benchmark check will clarify that.
As to:
This is why BALPA were so relieved to get a deal, as they know the pilots had no stomach for a fight. Even if the OpenSkies contracts had been pulled out the drawer and laid before them, it would have been inconceivable that they would take any sort of industrial action.Their settlement was purely political to get them onside and as you can see on this thread, they are trying to get everyone else to roll over, as a cabin crew or GSS strike may spoil their summer barbecue plans. What is so funny is that the Flight Crew don't see it that way, they think it was a victory for "intelligent negotiating" which found an "elegant solution". It is laughable.
What has BASSA's approach been? As usual an emotion driven rant that 'it's not all as bad as that' and 'WW is the devil incarnate and wants to rob us of money' followed by 'temporary pain, temporary measures' without once bothering to actually assess the situation fully and carefully. Very little communication with its members, whom BASSA expect to follow their lemming like lead without question. 'We know what's best for you! (as long as you are long haul, senior crew, living abroad)'.
The economic situation is real, the forward bookings are down, yield is through the floor and there is no relief in sight. APD is going up, travel plans and mentality have changed, fuel price is on the way back up and still, still you can't see a problem? The scene is set and now you come up with:
If a walk out is assured 100%, then he is more likely to negotiate.
Go for it, I don't mind watching a door on a flight for a few weeks.
Yes alot of the financial grief was cause by bad and difficult management decisions. They paid for that with their jobs. The investment community view that sort of thing a 'temporary' glitches with immediate solutions. The constant, overriding threat of union action is a totally different scenario, there is little rhyme or reason to some actions. Strike action over 'ingrowing toenails'? Diversion disruption? etc. etc. etc.
Every time there is a proposed change within the workforce we hit this wall. Time to change.
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Stall Pusher (and others), I hope that you have a back up plan for paying the bills after the demise of BA.
Let's assume BA cave in (highly unlikely IMHO) then we are at the will of the market, the city won't lend us money or support a rights issue based on us being in financial difficulties - would you put your savings into BA shares right now?? BA is finished.
Scenario 2, BASSA call a strike and we all have a few enforced days off. BA declare bankruptcy. BA is finished.
Scenario 3, BASSA call a strike but the support from CC crumbles after a couple of days, BA only allows crew to return to work on New Contracts. BASSA is finished.
Scenario 4, BASSA call a strike and the day before the phone lines at BA are red hot with crew calling in sick (a spineless act IMHO).
Scenario 5, BASSA get humiliated again (like last time) when negotiators from Unite tell them that they are behaving like children. BASSA is finished.
The way I see it, if BA win then you'll probably be looking for another job because you won't be able to stomach the revised T&Cs (those imposed by BA rather than negotiated by BASSA). Alternatively, BASSA win and we'll all be on the dole after insolvency.
It staggers me to say that you still can't see that you are being taken up the creek by BASSA, and they've forgotten to pack the paddle
Let's assume BA cave in (highly unlikely IMHO) then we are at the will of the market, the city won't lend us money or support a rights issue based on us being in financial difficulties - would you put your savings into BA shares right now?? BA is finished.
Scenario 2, BASSA call a strike and we all have a few enforced days off. BA declare bankruptcy. BA is finished.
Scenario 3, BASSA call a strike but the support from CC crumbles after a couple of days, BA only allows crew to return to work on New Contracts. BASSA is finished.
Scenario 4, BASSA call a strike and the day before the phone lines at BA are red hot with crew calling in sick (a spineless act IMHO).
Scenario 5, BASSA get humiliated again (like last time) when negotiators from Unite tell them that they are behaving like children. BASSA is finished.
The way I see it, if BA win then you'll probably be looking for another job because you won't be able to stomach the revised T&Cs (those imposed by BA rather than negotiated by BASSA). Alternatively, BASSA win and we'll all be on the dole after insolvency.
It staggers me to say that you still can't see that you are being taken up the creek by BASSA, and they've forgotten to pack the paddle
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There will not be an illegal strike and therefore no sackings. Why do you assume that? Stop scaremongering and telling untruths. The "gun to the head" approach is exactly what Walsh is doing. Get it right!
Walsh has got form. He is a cost cutter, that's it. Instead of spending all your time attacking cabin crew on this forum Wobble, why don't you look into why Walsh has failed to close the deal on Iberia? Why has he persisted so long with OS, when he is telling everyone the premium market will not recover?
I could go on, but BA cannot afford Walsh. The reason why the share price is so low is because the market has a lack of confidence in HIM! Even Stelios criticised his work for free gaff. Unbelievable.
If there is to be a reform of T&C's, it cannot happen in one go. Although the Single Fleet is still an ambition of the LT, for the moment the survival of the company is paramount. Unions are all about protecting jobs and T&C's, not destroying them. Let's see how good BALPA is when Walsh turns to you again as he surely will.
Flap 33. Where is the scenario that there is an agreement and no industrial action takes place. Why have you missed that one out?
Walsh has got form. He is a cost cutter, that's it. Instead of spending all your time attacking cabin crew on this forum Wobble, why don't you look into why Walsh has failed to close the deal on Iberia? Why has he persisted so long with OS, when he is telling everyone the premium market will not recover?
I could go on, but BA cannot afford Walsh. The reason why the share price is so low is because the market has a lack of confidence in HIM! Even Stelios criticised his work for free gaff. Unbelievable.
If there is to be a reform of T&C's, it cannot happen in one go. Although the Single Fleet is still an ambition of the LT, for the moment the survival of the company is paramount. Unions are all about protecting jobs and T&C's, not destroying them. Let's see how good BALPA is when Walsh turns to you again as he surely will.
Flap 33. Where is the scenario that there is an agreement and no industrial action takes place. Why have you missed that one out?
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SP, the BALPA deal is done. Get over it. Whether you feel it is a good or bad deal is totally irrelevant.
Illegal strike? Possibly not. However, if strike action leads to a possible threat to the stability of the business, which, let's face it WW has been harping on about, is a distinct possibility then the ability to sack workers under SOSR has been well discussed here.
No scaremongering, no untruths just the ability to present the scenario as it could, possibly, pan out. Why haven't BASSA warned their members of this possibility? At the last strike NONE of the crew were aware that they could be dismissed over strike action. Okay they might get a punitive payout at the subsequent industrial tribunal but they would still be without a job. Surely it is the responsibility of a union to present ALL possible outcomes to their membership before issuing what could possibly be a terminal strike ballot. Does BASSA value it's members so little that they will not warn them of the possibility of failure and its consequences. Doesn't sound like a particularly membership protective organisation to me.
This time BA has the I's dotted and the T's crossed. They are ready for the usual BASSA rant.
Sadly, as most other departments have taken the supposed 'roll over and give in' approach we will just sit back and watch. Expect no sympathy as the opportunity has been squandered.
As to:
we shall see what we shall see. At the least the company might still be there to see that bridge crossed.
WAR is the preserve of those who fail at diplomacy and is always an ugly solution.
Illegal strike? Possibly not. However, if strike action leads to a possible threat to the stability of the business, which, let's face it WW has been harping on about, is a distinct possibility then the ability to sack workers under SOSR has been well discussed here.
No scaremongering, no untruths just the ability to present the scenario as it could, possibly, pan out. Why haven't BASSA warned their members of this possibility? At the last strike NONE of the crew were aware that they could be dismissed over strike action. Okay they might get a punitive payout at the subsequent industrial tribunal but they would still be without a job. Surely it is the responsibility of a union to present ALL possible outcomes to their membership before issuing what could possibly be a terminal strike ballot. Does BASSA value it's members so little that they will not warn them of the possibility of failure and its consequences. Doesn't sound like a particularly membership protective organisation to me.
This time BA has the I's dotted and the T's crossed. They are ready for the usual BASSA rant.
Sadly, as most other departments have taken the supposed 'roll over and give in' approach we will just sit back and watch. Expect no sympathy as the opportunity has been squandered.
As to:
Let's see how good BALPA is when Walsh turns to you again as he surely will.
WAR is the preserve of those who fail at diplomacy and is always an ugly solution.
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Hey SP. I have said it before, and sadly I will say it again. Walsh is the incument CEO. Get used to it.
I got back on Sunday. It was an interesting trip. CSD, very pro BASSA, right from the get-go at the briefing.............hours later much quiet comment in the galleys..........."what are you going to do?"......."can you afford a strike?"..........."I need this job!!"............"I can't become unemployed"....etc.
The resolve is not as strong as you make out.
So, SP, 2 simple questions. How long (in actual days) are you prepared to stay on strike for? How long can you afford (in actual days) to stay on strike for?
I got back on Sunday. It was an interesting trip. CSD, very pro BASSA, right from the get-go at the briefing.............hours later much quiet comment in the galleys..........."what are you going to do?"......."can you afford a strike?"..........."I need this job!!"............"I can't become unemployed"....etc.
The resolve is not as strong as you make out.
So, SP, 2 simple questions. How long (in actual days) are you prepared to stay on strike for? How long can you afford (in actual days) to stay on strike for?
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It's the same with crew who believe that if WW is replaced things will go back to normal. A new CEO would leave our terms and conditiond. There would be no recession or financial crisis. Bookings would go back to normal. Everything would be as normal!
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If there is to be a reform of T&C's, it cannot happen in one go. Although the Single Fleet is still an ambition of the LT, for the moment the survival of the company is paramount. Unions are all about protecting jobs and T&C's, not destroying them. Let's see how good BALPA is when Walsh turns to you again as he surely will.
Cause and effect my dear SP.
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Originally Posted by Stall Pusher
There will not be an illegal strike and therefore no sackings. Why do you assume that?
Walsh has got form. He is a cost cutter, that's it.
why don't you look into why Walsh has failed to close the deal on Iberia?
[quote]I could go on, but BA cannot afford Walsh. The reason why the share price is so low is because the market has a lack of confidence in HIM![quote]
Share price has been between £1.11 and £1.85 in the last few months. Maybe people have more confidence in him than you think. You can repeat the "people don't trust Walsh" mantra all you like, but it won't make it true. Personalising the argument won't make it go away.
If there is to be a reform of T&C's, it cannot happen in one go.
I wonder how many crew are currently wishing CC89 were still around?
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It is obvious that crew have got concerns, people are worried. No one wants a strike of course.
Why don't you come along to the union meeting Andy and express the views you hold have there? I am sure they will be welcome.
Just to add that what Walsh wants from the cabin crew community is more than all the other departments put together. The divide looks unsurmountable. It is not looking good.
Well Carnage. There is still AMICUS 89. I am surprised that the cabin crew here do not belong to it.
Why don't you come along to the union meeting Andy and express the views you hold have there? I am sure they will be welcome.
Just to add that what Walsh wants from the cabin crew community is more than all the other departments put together. The divide looks unsurmountable. It is not looking good.
Well Carnage. There is still AMICUS 89. I am surprised that the cabin crew here do not belong to it.
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It is obvious that crew have got concerns, people are worried. No one wants a strike of course.
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Just to add that what Walsh wants from the cabin crew community is more than all the other departments put together. The divide looks unsurmountable. It is not looking good.
Insurmountable SP, Insurmountable, unsurmountable isn't a proper word. Typing issue again, the keys are next to each other.
