BA and Project Columbus III

[Human Factor]

I am sure that those pilots who have been reported are quaking in their boots...

This goes back to BASSA's "name and shame" policy which they don't seem to consider to be at odds with the UK Data Protection Act.

I'm curious. Who are those pilots being reported to? I ask because I guarantee the Flight Ops managers won't give a monkeys. IFCE have no remit regarding pilots and BASSA is cabin crew union.

[OzzieO]

If cabin crew level that accusation at you on what seems to be on a regular basis going by your comment perhaps there is an element of truth in it?

[Carnage Matey!]

You'd be surprised how often the 'lack of CRM' complaint is bandied about. 99.9% of cabin crew who make the complaint don't actually understand what CRM is about, believing instead that it's something to do with the pilots not being allowed to disagree with them.

[Litebulbs]

If you are an employee and a fellow employee tried to enforce an opinion that had no relevance to the job that you were doing, after you have asked them to stop, then they would be bullying you. That is a gross misconduct matter, that if proved may lead to dismissal.

You may seek advice on this issue from your union, but the grievance should be lodged with the appropriate channels of your management structure. If your management structure ignore your grievance, then there are legal avenues that you may pursue.

No colleague has the right to tell you what to eat, or which religion to follow. They also have no right to lecture you about your terms and conditions and why you should change them, if you are feeling in any way, under pressure to defend yourself.

[Da Dog]

Ozzie perhaps you should read my post again..............

You said

If cabin crew level that accusation at you

My post read

I wish I had a UK£ for every time I heard Cabin Crew level that accusation, I would be a very rich man.

To date I don't think I have every known it leveled at me sorry to disappoint you

Rather I haveheard the phrase banded around in the galley and at the bar when Cabin Crew have heard something they don't like

It seems the stock response, but by in large is meaningless and misunderstood.

Oh and the last time I heard it, the phrase was leveled at a CSD

I don't think for any moment that any of my peers have "bullied" anyone, or enforced an opinion an anyone over ICFE cost savings plan as described by Lightbulb (glad you enjoyed the bullying video).

If perhaps you wish to argue the point further, then perhaps all the GM and SM grades in ICFE, together with anyone that hosts an "in touch" session are equally guilty of British Airways Bullying policy.

[wobble2plank]

I stand by my comment that CC conditions are exactly that and really should not concern anyone else

The dreaded 'silo' mentality makes its unwelcome return.

Cabin Crew terms and conditions become everyone's domain when the terms 'I would rather bring BA down with Willie and his gang before accepting a drop in my T's & C's' gets bandied about. That makes it of concern to every employee.

BA does not run to pander to CC whims, the pilots, loaders, despatchers, checkin staff, IT staff, customer service agents etc. etc. all have a vested interest in the result of the BASSA spat.

As someone has already pointed out, there have been never ending pilot verses cabin crew debates here, they are old and we are trawling through old news.

Can anyone post a direct comparison of CC terms from another airline to compare with BA? At least then we have a baseline to work from and can discuss this from a common starting point. Remember, when Virgin crew threatened to strike over pay, Sir Dickie told them if the wanted more money then resign and go to BA.

[speedmarque]

Mystical pilot-only-understood CRM

Me and most of my co-crew are more than aware of what CRM actually is and how it can avoid accidents.

I am aware that the KLM/Pan Am crash in Tenerife was caused by a biligerent Captain and that his crew were relectant to challenge his poor decisions.

BM crash at Kegworth was avoidable if only there was better communication between all the crew.

The AC DC-9 fire that started in a toilet and killed many onboard could have been avoided with proper communication.

The list goes on..................

SOME PILOTS are challenging us on crew buses and in galleys about our situation at the moment. I have experienced it first hand and I am not alone.

Now imagine the atmosphere between the crew that these pilots are creating every day on BA aircraft and tell me it does not constitute a safety threat?

[wobble2plank]

speedmarque

Mystical pilot-only-understood CRM

I don't want to take this thread on a tangent so I will just copy and paste what I wrote on another thread with reference to CRM. Sorry to say that most of your co-workers ARE aware of what it means, and a discussion on a bus of factors involving ALL of our employment doesn't really amount to a CRM problem.

Generally, in an emergency, the workload for the pilots goes up a 'tiny' bit. With the great outside world impacting through vastly increased radio chatter and the requirement to 'keep the aircraft safe'. The spare capacity to deal with other outside influences not directly related to the said problem depends upon the flight crew on the day.

Good CRM enables the Captain to reliably expect a standardised information package delivered to him through SOP channels with a minimum of embellishment to assist in his decision making.

That is the 'emergency' scenario.

As for cabin problems, I fully expect that the No.1/Purser/CSD will have briefed their teams to follow the correct procedures and the correct lines of communication in the event of any disruption in the cabin. The CC are trained specifically to deal with that scenario in the same way that I am trained to deal with aircraft problems. I have the confidence and respect for them that they will do their job correctly and to the best of their ability on the day just as I would hope they have the same confidence in me. As such CRM allows delegation of those decisions and responsibilities to the No.1/Purser/CSD.

The CRM training we receive has always been together with CC and highlights the problems, workload and time pressures put on those in front and behind the cockpit door. It has always worked well and most come away with a highlighted sense of what goes on in the others departments.

CRM is not 'fluffy bunny' it is efficient use, direction and co-ordination of all crew assets. It is particularly needed to enable a crew to function as a cohesive unit in the event of a major malfunction where time, stress, fear and anxiety may try to overturn training, experience and professionalism.

Ignore it if you wish but, to be honest after flying for years before this 'CRM' stuff started, it is one of the few good things to come out of the Human Resources department!

Just my spin.

CRM aside, we are all still entitled to our opinions, if you feel so deeply that is should not be discussed on a bus, or that the debate is getting to such a heated point that you feel it could impact upon your ability to do your job then, under CRM, it is YOUR responsibility to say so. CRM covers all of us, don't just blame the flight crew for discussing something you don't like.

[Litebulbs]

Da Dog,

It will be part of a managers job to be cost aware. Talking to crew about the need to control that cost should be expected.

It is not a pilots job to do that on contractual issues. If a crew member wishes to seek your advice on contractual issues then fine. If you want to give opinion on the same issues, then fine too. If you are not asked, then don't offer.

[speedmarque]

Oh Wobble really

I'm not against DISCUSSING anything, it's the heated, bullying, Im-right-you-are-just-cabin-crew-so-dont-understand-the bigger-picture arrogance and attitude of SOME of our colleagues that we are objecting to and reporting.

It's not safe behaviour.

[wobble2plank]

Speedmarque,

That is not anything to do with CRM at all. A discussion about pending changes which, oddly enough, everyone is interested in, especially as we have our own changes pending, has nothing at all to do with CRM and everything to do with perception. If you want to argue then accept that people may hold as deep feeling for the subject in the other direction as you do in yours. Discussions (arguments) are never one sided.

IF you feel that it is too 'in your face' then that is a personal element to the discussion that you need to address and not to umbrella under CRM. It constantly amazes me that personal issues are bandied about as CRM when all it really is is a personality clash between two people. In the unfortunate event of an emergency I am sure that you're training would enable you to complete any tasks required of you without letting a personality issue come to the fore. If not then I feel that you need to address that issue before you fly.

Bullying is a totally different subject and one that should NOT be placed under the same heading as CRM as they are totally different things.

Enough thread creep, can we please get back to discussing what resolutions are available to BAs' wish list instead of inane 'but I don't like the way they talked to me' discussions.

[TorC]

As Eurofleet CC I have, over the past few days, had several conversations with Flight Crew on this subject. I really am not sure where others are getting all this "bullying" thing from. The conversations I've had have been generally respectful, informative, supportive and constructive. If anything, these conversations have shown a wider awareness and understanding of the situation faced not only by the company, but by all of us employed by it than I find to be the case when conversing with my fellow Cabin Crew, be that face-to-face, or via other online forums. It would also seem that the figures attributed to Flight Crew by BASSA, are somewhat erroneous.

For those of you who wish to divert your energies into finger-pointing and harping back to fines/T5/Openskies etc I'd suggest that you really do need to focus more on the reality of here and now, and try to participate in a somewhat more constructive manner.

I'm seeing a lot of calls for "strike" or "work to rule" on other forums, but very little useful, informed or constructive discussion. I did venture a somewhat broader opinion and the result was far more harrowing than anything I've ever witnessed in conversations onboard the aircraft, on a bus, or in a bar.

[Juan Tugoh]

Speedmarque has hit the nail on the head, it is the attitude of some of our colleagues - on both sides of the door that are a problem. The "I'd rather see this company fail than give an inch on T&Cs" brigade are dinosaurs and are just as bad as any pilots being forceful in their views. Both attitudes need to be moderated - extemists on both side of the debate do not help matters.

[speedmarque]

Ladies and Gentlemen...............

..........I give you exactly the dangerous attitude I have been talking about


inane 'but I don't like the way they talked to me' discussions.

:

Personality clashes (or however else you choose to trivialise safety issues) HAVE CAUSED ACCIDENTS. The fact that you casualise these worries me and furthers my point.

[Carnage Matey!]

In my experience the people who complain of a "Im-right-you-are-just-cabin-crew-so-dont-understand-the bigger-picture arrogance" are usually the ones who espouse the "BASSA are 100% right and I'll back them whatever" atttitude and have just had their arguments (or lack of) shot down in flames. The "bullying" threat is BASSAs attempt to stifle debate out on the line where they can't control speech like they do on their own forum. Can't have the troops thinking for themselves now, can we?

Speedmarque - you're still not getting the CRM thing are you?

[speedmarque]

Off on a trip now

Thanks to all contributors, I have enjoyed the debate/sparring.

For the record I am not a BASSA rep or even really a fan of how the union is run. But I am a member and believe they do an ok job most of the time. I dont agree to their "tabloid" style sometimes and do not blindly follow all they say.

To those carrying on the discussion, remember everybody is entitled to an opinion, even if it disagrees with yours. Superiority and refusing to listen to others opinions says more about you than the people you are trying to ridicule.

Cheers

[wobble2plank]

Speedmarque,

nothing could be further from the truth. My final comment was in respect to this thread 'tangentalising' from the main discussion onto one of 'ohh I don't like the way they talked to me'.

I am well aware that the Staines crash was caused, partly, by a heated discussion about pensions between the pilots. This scenario led to the inception of a course which was designed to deal with 'stressful encounters' prior to flight.

As the course was developed it enrolled more and more subjects until it became a generic 'dealing with a flight from briefing to clear' course. As the HR department got hold od it they needed an an acronym for it and called it CRM Course.

My entire point is that CRM is just a small part of the entire 'CRM' course and contains a bewildering array of information pertaining to the safe conduct of the flight (Aircraft Captains primary responsibility). Hence, whilst it is not considered good to have heated debates before the flight between crew members, it comes under the CRM course heading but is NOT CRM, purely one of the tools given to the aircraft commander who, if it was them, should have known better or, if not, should, possibly have intervened and suggested that the discussion take place at a more suitable time.

Throwing the 'BASSA will report you' card in completely kills off your ability to explain exactly why these proposals are unacceptable. That would, surely, be shooting yourself in the foot. A bit like misreading my previous post and quoting in red.

[Da Dog]

Litebulbs you could not have summed it up better.

Strangely speedmarque I have over the last 3 weeks or so never initiated a conversation on Cabin Crews current difficulties, the conversation has always been forced upon me, and the other flight crew I am with, and yes its been on the bus, and on the flight deck, and in the galley and in the bar. If someone asks my opinion I'll give it. But it won't be the sympathy you might expect.

In fact 1 purser was so enraged, I would question their ability to go flying!
It cuts both ways.

Perhaps your just letting the BASSA stereotype of Flight Crew cloud your judgment on what someone says and what they mean by it

After all BASSA wouldn't want to stifle open debate through fear and intimidation........ would they??



Interesting observation by TorC about the other forum, I have to laugh but if anyone dare argue against the "norm" or offer a rational point of view backed up by reasonable argument, they are immediately verbally stomped all over..... the best put down so far "when did you marry flight deck!!"

[Re-Heat]

I stand by my comment that CC conditions are exactly that and really should not concern anyone else

I beg to differ - it is the shareholders' cash, and how the pie is cut determines whether the remainder of the workforce actually has a job to do next year.

[PC767]

So we return to the message. Cabin crew will be soley responsible for the collapse of BA and the unemployment of all staff.

Round and round in circles.

Others, and not necessarily cabin crew, believe that Walsh will be repsonsible for the demise of BA. His unreasonable man gung-ho attitude, his belief in Openskies the airline, and his thrust that a permanent long term solution will be forced onto IfCE whilst every other departments will have short term solutions in place and subsequent reviews.

Alot of cabin crew I converse with are of the opinion that an immediate and temporary solution needs to found now. An agreement with a guaranteed reassessment and a return to normality at an agreed financial trigger. What is being proposed is very much viewed as an opportunistic smash and grab on permanent t&cs. I will again point out that these new terms were within the leaked 'colombus' document. A project which pre-dated the current recession. A project commenced during a time of record profits. How wonderful it must be for the leadership team that the economy has collapsed.

If BA is in a real crisis, rather than a protectionist mode, why oh why does the company still persevere with Openskies. Shelf the concept for now! Recently our Manager of Americas, stated, in defence of Openskies, it annoys Air France. How in turbulent times can a company motivate its workforce with mixed messages. We'll waste money to annoy the French, but cost cuts have to be permenantly made to our own crew.