BA and Project Columbus II
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Fly to serve your age in the box says 35 yet you say you have worked for BA for 23 years i am very intereste to hear what work did you do for them when you joined at age 12?
Last edited by lord mash; 23rd Feb 2009 at 10:44. Reason: error
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lord mash, you have beaten me to it!
I was also going to comment that flytoserve must be a very impressive sort of person to have got a job with BA when he/she was only 12!
And as for
- 'constantly' for 3 weeks, with 6 weeks off afterwards to recover, is not bad at all. I can't help but feel that these posts must be some sort of joke. 
I was also going to comment that flytoserve must be a very impressive sort of person to have got a job with BA when he/she was only 12!
And as for
constantly miss out on sleep on nightflights
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I feel a little sad that my girlfiend who works 10hr days mon to fri in the PR world in london earns the same as this 6 weeks off 3 weeks on person. (£1100 after tax).
Best not to tell her.
Best not to tell her.
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Without wishing to intrude on a private discussion...
As long as we mods have to read this stuff, may I ask if you might refrain from posting such comments as...
There is a (no doubt small and remote) possibility that some other airlines in the world employ one or two cabin crew that are nearly as wonderful as BA, and we wouldn't want them demotivated when they discover that no matter how hard they try they can never be as good as all BA crew apparently are. Just in case some of the many (previously held-to-be excellent) cabin crew that I work with may read this thread, may I ask for a link to the definitive, unarguable evidence that BA cabin crew are the best in the world?
As long as we mods have to read this stuff, may I ask if you might refrain from posting such comments as...
As for other comments, the reason that British Airways is so successful is down to the cabin crew. They are paid the salary they are paid, as they are the best in the world.
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Flytoserve,
Obviously you're not getting paid anything at all for your 6 weeks off, I don't think you made that clear enough..
She won't be earning something between the figures she mentioned every month. For her part-time time off, the 6 weeks, like I say she will receive nothing.
I hope that makes things a little clearer.
Unfortunately your posts have seemed to help stir things up even more. I do hope that wasn't intentional........
Obviously you're not getting paid anything at all for your 6 weeks off, I don't think you made that clear enough..
She won't be earning something between the figures she mentioned every month. For her part-time time off, the 6 weeks, like I say she will receive nothing.
I hope that makes things a little clearer.
Unfortunately your posts have seemed to help stir things up even more. I do hope that wasn't intentional........
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13 Please,
Fly to serve said she takes home £1100-£2000 per month, not per 3 months.
However, I think she is a wind up merchant, after all no-one could be so high minded as to really believe they are "the best in the world".......
Could they?
Fly to serve said she takes home £1100-£2000 per month, not per 3 months.
However, I think she is a wind up merchant, after all no-one could be so high minded as to really believe they are "the best in the world".......
Could they?
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Classic,
I agree on the wind-up merchant bit, which is why I put a in my previous post.
She really won't be taking home that every month, honestly.
I'm 75%, I was 50% previously for a year.
On your part-time time off, for me it's a week, for 'her' 6 weeks, there will be no pay, nothing, no salary, nada.
As I've read somewhere from someone else, when we're good, we're very good, but my god when we're bad, we're awful. I know, I have to work with these people.
I've read this thread and the previous one, trying to stay out of it, because I don't think this is the place to be discussing our t&c's.
We have a couple of other places which are much more private.
What I will say though,
I've been in BA over 20 years, 17 of them flying as cabin crew. I've had 2 other jobs within the airline, 4 other members of my family have worked or do still work fo BA. So I know a bit more than just the cabin crew side of things. I'd like to say I'm very grateful to have got the job when I did, (eventually on the 2nd go!).
Some of my colleagues think they(BA) always come after crew when they're looking to save money. They don't. Every area of BA is affected by cost-cutting, as it should frankly. Even if we(BA, the country, the world), weren't in tough times, we should still be looking to save money.
There are things I think can definitely be comprised on, altered, to the benefit of the company, and wouldn't cost us(cabin crew) financially. Some things that are in our agreement which really shouldn't be in there these days, and really are a 'nice-to-have', not a 'need-to-have'.
But I'm not going to put them on here, because like I say, I really don't think this is the place.
What I've said about my job in the past before when people have asked, is in some ways it's the easiest job in the world, however, it is very hard work, physically. You do get very tired. And just like hangovers get harder to recover from, I find nightflights harder to recover from these days(!).
But I wouldn't change my job for the world either. When I mention the tough bits, I'm not moaning, they're just facts.
Happy and safe flying to all...
I agree on the wind-up merchant bit, which is why I put a
in my previous post. She really won't be taking home that every month, honestly.
I'm 75%, I was 50% previously for a year.
On your part-time time off, for me it's a week, for 'her' 6 weeks, there will be no pay, nothing, no salary, nada.
As I've read somewhere from someone else, when we're good, we're very good, but my god when we're bad, we're awful. I know, I have to work with these people.
I've read this thread and the previous one, trying to stay out of it, because I don't think this is the place to be discussing our t&c's.
We have a couple of other places which are much more private.
What I will say though,
I've been in BA over 20 years, 17 of them flying as cabin crew. I've had 2 other jobs within the airline, 4 other members of my family have worked or do still work fo BA. So I know a bit more than just the cabin crew side of things. I'd like to say I'm very grateful to have got the job when I did, (eventually on the 2nd go!).
Some of my colleagues think they(BA) always come after crew when they're looking to save money. They don't. Every area of BA is affected by cost-cutting, as it should frankly. Even if we(BA, the country, the world), weren't in tough times, we should still be looking to save money.
There are things I think can definitely be comprised on, altered, to the benefit of the company, and wouldn't cost us(cabin crew) financially. Some things that are in our agreement which really shouldn't be in there these days, and really are a 'nice-to-have', not a 'need-to-have'.
But I'm not going to put them on here, because like I say, I really don't think this is the place.
What I've said about my job in the past before when people have asked, is in some ways it's the easiest job in the world, however, it is very hard work, physically. You do get very tired. And just like hangovers get harder to recover from, I find nightflights harder to recover from these days(!).
But I wouldn't change my job for the world either. When I mention the tough bits, I'm not moaning, they're just facts.
Happy and safe flying to all...
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Ozzie, I think he alluding to the fact that we should (all) hear something this week.
At a management brief this week the gist of the story was, that letters have been ready to go for the last couple of weeks to all departments, it was only BASSA who had slowed the process down.
It appears that the company want to go to investors day on the 5th March, with all the good news (sarcasm) for its employees out the way.
Whatever it is will be bad news for everyone, I assume form what I am hearing that it could be worse for some!
Expect BA to follow in others footsteps, and possibly use the threat of redundancies to try and gain some big cuts in T & C. Pilots despite what some of us may think will not escape...............
At a management brief this week the gist of the story was, that letters have been ready to go for the last couple of weeks to all departments, it was only BASSA who had slowed the process down.
It appears that the company want to go to investors day on the 5th March, with all the good news (sarcasm) for its employees out the way.
Whatever it is will be bad news for everyone, I assume form what I am hearing that it could be worse for some!
Expect BA to follow in others footsteps, and possibly use the threat of redundancies to try and gain some big cuts in T & C. Pilots despite what some of us may think will not escape...............
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Mr Francis, head of IfCE, has stated that there will be no big announcement. That is not to say that there will not be changes.
Talks about those changes start today and will last for 3 weeks. No news will be released until the conclusion of the talks. Unless talks break down anything written here or elsewhere will be specualtion.
Talks about those changes start today and will last for 3 weeks. No news will be released until the conclusion of the talks. Unless talks break down anything written here or elsewhere will be specualtion.
PPRuNe Person
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PC767 - and what makes you think speculation will stop after talks have broken down? 
This will be BASSA's defining moment. We will see if they are able to come up to speed with this (if they were more on the ball then negotiations would have already started) or if they remain rooted in their 1970s working practices.
This will be BASSA's defining moment. We will see if they are able to come up to speed with this (if they were more on the ball then negotiations would have already started) or if they remain rooted in their 1970s working practices.
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Overstress.
Bassa were available for talks prior to this time. It was the company which was unwilling. It is suggested that the company were not exactly sure what they wanted to talk about. Columbus has now been replaced with Focus on Costs and alot of the management team responsible for Columbus have left BA. Bill Francis is our new manager and no doubt has his own ideas on how to manage his department. He has appears to have acknowledged that cabin crew are interested in their future and has invited the TUs to talks, commencing today. This is a very positive move and is very welcome from the majority of us. No doubt the extremes will be unhappy. Those who feel we should strike on the left and those who feel we've got 'it' coming to us on the right. A reasoned approach has won thus far. Fingers cross it prevails.
Bassa were available for talks prior to this time. It was the company which was unwilling. It is suggested that the company were not exactly sure what they wanted to talk about. Columbus has now been replaced with Focus on Costs and alot of the management team responsible for Columbus have left BA. Bill Francis is our new manager and no doubt has his own ideas on how to manage his department. He has appears to have acknowledged that cabin crew are interested in their future and has invited the TUs to talks, commencing today. This is a very positive move and is very welcome from the majority of us. No doubt the extremes will be unhappy. Those who feel we should strike on the left and those who feel we've got 'it' coming to us on the right. A reasoned approach has won thus far. Fingers cross it prevails.
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I have been watching this, and the previous Columbus thread, for a long time and feel that I can't not participate any longer.
For starters, I am BA flight-crew. The likes of PC767 and others leave me fearful for my own future and the future of BA. It has been said many times that the axe is coming down on ALL departments within BA, some are going to be hit harder than others. I know that having done 875 hours last year that there is little that can be gained from improving my, and my colleagues, productivity but inevitably come the final curtain I will be taking less home at the end of the month as a result of pay restructuring (they want rid of the incremental steps, allegedly). Yes we have "heavy" Captains on some flights, some trips could be reduced in length to cut allowance/hotac costs, and I'm sure there are other subtle ways of chipping away at the Flight Operations budget.
The recent snow disruption has demonstrated the problems that BA has with industrial agreements with IFCE. Now you don't have to tell me, at some point BA allowed these agreements to be implemented but I am sure that it was probably pre-privatisation. Can you honestly, hand on heart, defend some of the extortionate allowances you get. For example, Box Payments (I've been asked to chock after a certain time in NRT so as to trigger an extra BP), overtime payments or diversion payments. Come on, if you wanted 9-5 regular hours work elsewhere. As FC I understand how disruption can f**K up your home life but being "hosed down" with cash, does it help??
BASSA have a responsibility to their members, to keep you informed and act in your best interest. My question is this, what do you rather have; short-term pain or long-term survival. I use the word survival because unless we ALL take some responsibility for reducing costs BA won't be around in a year or two from now. It's as critical as that.
I'm glad that BASSA is entering talks, a bit too late I'm affraid, akin to re-organising the deck chairs on the Titanic IMHO. The announcement from BA is due Weds, 25th Feb with or without BASSA approval from what I hear. BA has an investor day in early March, you know - the guys that OWN BA shares, and thy want to present their vision for the future of this great British Brand.
Oh, and as fo the old "The Government won't let us go bust", well I bet they would.... If anyone is relying on that then we really are in trouble.
The sooner we accept that this problem belongs to ALL of us, the sooner we can start work on ensuring the company's survival.
For starters, I am BA flight-crew. The likes of PC767 and others leave me fearful for my own future and the future of BA. It has been said many times that the axe is coming down on ALL departments within BA, some are going to be hit harder than others. I know that having done 875 hours last year that there is little that can be gained from improving my, and my colleagues, productivity but inevitably come the final curtain I will be taking less home at the end of the month as a result of pay restructuring (they want rid of the incremental steps, allegedly). Yes we have "heavy" Captains on some flights, some trips could be reduced in length to cut allowance/hotac costs, and I'm sure there are other subtle ways of chipping away at the Flight Operations budget.
The recent snow disruption has demonstrated the problems that BA has with industrial agreements with IFCE. Now you don't have to tell me, at some point BA allowed these agreements to be implemented but I am sure that it was probably pre-privatisation. Can you honestly, hand on heart, defend some of the extortionate allowances you get. For example, Box Payments (I've been asked to chock after a certain time in NRT so as to trigger an extra BP), overtime payments or diversion payments. Come on, if you wanted 9-5 regular hours work elsewhere. As FC I understand how disruption can f**K up your home life but being "hosed down" with cash, does it help??
BASSA have a responsibility to their members, to keep you informed and act in your best interest. My question is this, what do you rather have; short-term pain or long-term survival. I use the word survival because unless we ALL take some responsibility for reducing costs BA won't be around in a year or two from now. It's as critical as that.
I'm glad that BASSA is entering talks, a bit too late I'm affraid, akin to re-organising the deck chairs on the Titanic IMHO. The announcement from BA is due Weds, 25th Feb with or without BASSA approval from what I hear. BA has an investor day in early March, you know - the guys that OWN BA shares, and thy want to present their vision for the future of this great British Brand.
Oh, and as fo the old "The Government won't let us go bust", well I bet they would.... If anyone is relying on that then we really are in trouble.
The sooner we accept that this problem belongs to ALL of us, the sooner we can start work on ensuring the company's survival.
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Flaps33. Sorry I leave you fearful for the future. The fact is I agree with the vast majority of your post. But matters must be handled properly and officially in a company the size of BA and also with a predominantly absent work force in IfCE. I've worked for smaller companies, in smaller groups, and change is easier and quicker to manage. Changes cannot just be adhoc, both the company and the crew need protection. If we pick and choose what we fancy when we fancy the operation will eventually start to unfold.
The few flights that caused consternation during the snow were managed with out dated agreements. I've said before, that a switched on management would have identifed changes to be renegotiated long before now. But I believe that our (IfCE) management are only switched on just before they move off elsewhere.
I'm looking forward to a long future with BA, but I'm not going to pay for it, that defeats the object of working for a living. Neither will I pay for past mistakes or senior management pay rises and bonuses when a pay freeze is being suggested for the rest of us. There will, I'm hopefull, be compromise and an agreement to suit all parties.
There is impetus to make changes in the current economic climate. But I remain suspicious of Focus on Costs. Remember this was started whilst we were making record profits under our current terms and is a long term project. This is not just a move to save the company in the short term. If it were BA would have imposed changes long before now as other airlines/companies have.
The few flights that caused consternation during the snow were managed with out dated agreements. I've said before, that a switched on management would have identifed changes to be renegotiated long before now. But I believe that our (IfCE) management are only switched on just before they move off elsewhere.
I'm looking forward to a long future with BA, but I'm not going to pay for it, that defeats the object of working for a living. Neither will I pay for past mistakes or senior management pay rises and bonuses when a pay freeze is being suggested for the rest of us. There will, I'm hopefull, be compromise and an agreement to suit all parties.
There is impetus to make changes in the current economic climate. But I remain suspicious of Focus on Costs. Remember this was started whilst we were making record profits under our current terms and is a long term project. This is not just a move to save the company in the short term. If it were BA would have imposed changes long before now as other airlines/companies have.
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So now that BA have got everyone fearful for there jobs, and the doom and gloom merchants are predicting that the end is nigh, what is this supposed letter supposed to contain? BA always predict hard times ahead and things are tough when they want to bring in changes, oldest trick in the book make your workforce scared for the future and they will agree to anything to save jobs and bingo! You have a compliant workforce again who have blindly signed the future away .
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Or not! more bluster.
"Dear colleague
InFlight Customer Experience Business Plan
At the end of January our company announced its first ever profits warning to the City. We said we expect to make a loss of around £150 million for the full financial year, the largest loss in our history. In these tough economic times, we are burning cash at £2.7million every day, spending far more than we are earning.
Like other airlines, we acted swiftly to respond to this crisis. We cut our spending, reduced managers by 33%, froze non-essential recruitment, temporarily parked aircraft and reduced our capacity. And we carried out a root-and-branch review of every area of our business.
Every part of the airline will play its part to ensure our survival as we face our toughest ever trading environment and today I wanted to write to you personally to let you know the steps we’re taking in InFlight Customer Experience (IFCE).
The bottom line is IFCE need to make a saving of £82 million during the next two years (this is equivalent to our current annual employment costs in IFCE being 14% lower than they are today by year 2).
These are extremely challenging numbers, particularly when 99% of costs in IFCE are employment costs. Together we will need to find a permanent and sustainable solution, which meets the targets we have been set and helps us respond to an increasingly competitive market. As I have indicated, the whole business has significant targets to achieve including Flight Ops, Catering, Engineering, Airports etc, so we are not alone and we must make sure we play our part in full.
During the past six weeks we have reviewed a number of proposals to deliver the employment cost savings. Intensive meetings for the next three weeks opened today with the Trade Unions, via the relevant NSP forum.
Everyone in IFCE has the opportunity to keep up to date through the In Touch Programme. A new Daily Live Web Chat on the Crew Discussion Forum has been set up where you can talk directly with me or any of my leadership team. You can also email the team at [email protected]. Of course, nothing beats face to face communication so please take this opportunity to talk to your manager, or my leadership team at one of our special briefings in the CRC at T5 and Gatwick in the coming week.
Quite rightly you would expect my team to demonstrate strong leadership over these issues and we want everyone in IFCE to understand the core principles we will adopt throughout this period of change:-
Keep our focus on the customer and ensure we stay one step ahead of the competition by continuing to deliver world class customer service every time
Minimise the impact on our current crew and ground teams
Take everyone in IFCE with us on this difficult journey by actively communicating in an open, honest and timely manner.
Look for ways to improve people’s work/lifestyle balance in IFCE alongside any changes we make
Changes must deliver genuine, sustainable and long term productivity improvements in the way we work
Those of you who I’ve met over the last few weeks have said that you recognise the need for change but ask that I do all I can to minimise any personal impact to you financially. To achieve this I believe we need to focus on contracts for future crew whilst looking at how our existing people can be as productive as possible.
This is a very tall order but the circumstances have never been so serious. However, we are confident that there can be a path through but we will need your full support to achieve it. There is a real need to move quickly on what our future cost model should look like and it will have to be radically different from today’s to make these kind of savings permanent.
This is a very challenging period for the whole company and you will know of the external financial crisis that all employers are facing. We also appreciate that this letter contains some tough messages but we will need everyone’s support in IFCE to deliver our contribution if we are going to survive in the short term and be competitive in the long term.
I will communicate directly with you again as soon as I have further news.
Yours sincerely,
Bill Francis
Head of InFlight Customer Experience"
InFlight Customer Experience Business Plan
At the end of January our company announced its first ever profits warning to the City. We said we expect to make a loss of around £150 million for the full financial year, the largest loss in our history. In these tough economic times, we are burning cash at £2.7million every day, spending far more than we are earning.
Like other airlines, we acted swiftly to respond to this crisis. We cut our spending, reduced managers by 33%, froze non-essential recruitment, temporarily parked aircraft and reduced our capacity. And we carried out a root-and-branch review of every area of our business.
Every part of the airline will play its part to ensure our survival as we face our toughest ever trading environment and today I wanted to write to you personally to let you know the steps we’re taking in InFlight Customer Experience (IFCE).
The bottom line is IFCE need to make a saving of £82 million during the next two years (this is equivalent to our current annual employment costs in IFCE being 14% lower than they are today by year 2).
These are extremely challenging numbers, particularly when 99% of costs in IFCE are employment costs. Together we will need to find a permanent and sustainable solution, which meets the targets we have been set and helps us respond to an increasingly competitive market. As I have indicated, the whole business has significant targets to achieve including Flight Ops, Catering, Engineering, Airports etc, so we are not alone and we must make sure we play our part in full.
During the past six weeks we have reviewed a number of proposals to deliver the employment cost savings. Intensive meetings for the next three weeks opened today with the Trade Unions, via the relevant NSP forum.
Everyone in IFCE has the opportunity to keep up to date through the In Touch Programme. A new Daily Live Web Chat on the Crew Discussion Forum has been set up where you can talk directly with me or any of my leadership team. You can also email the team at [email protected]. Of course, nothing beats face to face communication so please take this opportunity to talk to your manager, or my leadership team at one of our special briefings in the CRC at T5 and Gatwick in the coming week.
Quite rightly you would expect my team to demonstrate strong leadership over these issues and we want everyone in IFCE to understand the core principles we will adopt throughout this period of change:-
Keep our focus on the customer and ensure we stay one step ahead of the competition by continuing to deliver world class customer service every time
Minimise the impact on our current crew and ground teams
Take everyone in IFCE with us on this difficult journey by actively communicating in an open, honest and timely manner.
Look for ways to improve people’s work/lifestyle balance in IFCE alongside any changes we make
Changes must deliver genuine, sustainable and long term productivity improvements in the way we work
Those of you who I’ve met over the last few weeks have said that you recognise the need for change but ask that I do all I can to minimise any personal impact to you financially. To achieve this I believe we need to focus on contracts for future crew whilst looking at how our existing people can be as productive as possible.
This is a very tall order but the circumstances have never been so serious. However, we are confident that there can be a path through but we will need your full support to achieve it. There is a real need to move quickly on what our future cost model should look like and it will have to be radically different from today’s to make these kind of savings permanent.
This is a very challenging period for the whole company and you will know of the external financial crisis that all employers are facing. We also appreciate that this letter contains some tough messages but we will need everyone’s support in IFCE to deliver our contribution if we are going to survive in the short term and be competitive in the long term.
I will communicate directly with you again as soon as I have further news.
Yours sincerely,
Bill Francis
Head of InFlight Customer Experience"