BA and Project Columbus
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When I used to work at Bmi Basic was 19,000 and that was 4yrs ago.
Even with a 20 % pay rise on my basic ( and thats what some pilots got for changes to t & C )
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No, they are not really after the crew on the new contract. I think the basic salary isn't even £11 000 per annum. My sister, who is main crew (not even first class trained), has been with BA since 1995 and her basic is around £30 000 per annum!
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New contract/old contract
It may be that they are going after the old contract more, however, if they go cutting out box payments, overtime etc, new contract will be affected. Allowances are the majority of pay. They need to up the basic but somehow, I can't see BA doing anything to benefit any crew. 
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BA apparently want this new contract to save them money simply through volunteers. In order to achieve this, they only need to pay the same money per crew member, but gain efficiencies so that they no longer need so many crew. This can be achieved by having the mixed fleet with different contact terms.
They will probably save even more money, if they slightly up the new contract overall pay so that they get even more volunteers, and hence more efficiency. If they get enough volunteers, the pay for the old contractors will go down considerably, because they will be given as little lucrative work as possible. With sufficient volunteers, BA probably do not even need the old contractors to agree to a new contract, because their allowances will be reduced dramatically.
In my opinion BA are being very clever with all of this. There is no way that confidential Columbus literature was leaked to BASSA by accident. They are just gauging the reaction, and will more than likely offer a final package that is actually quite attractive to the majority of BASSA's members. They want it to be voluntary. Therefore by definition, it must be more attractive to at least some crew.
They will probably save even more money, if they slightly up the new contract overall pay so that they get even more volunteers, and hence more efficiency. If they get enough volunteers, the pay for the old contractors will go down considerably, because they will be given as little lucrative work as possible. With sufficient volunteers, BA probably do not even need the old contractors to agree to a new contract, because their allowances will be reduced dramatically.
In my opinion BA are being very clever with all of this. There is no way that confidential Columbus literature was leaked to BASSA by accident. They are just gauging the reaction, and will more than likely offer a final package that is actually quite attractive to the majority of BASSA's members. They want it to be voluntary. Therefore by definition, it must be more attractive to at least some crew.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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There is no way that confidential Columbus literature was leaked to BASSA by accident.
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I think the Moo and get Smart miss the point - you are paid to work. Sitting at home for more than 2 weeks sick is symptomatic of something far more problematic than simple colds and general sickness. £860pm basic sick pay far exceeds what some pay as the legal minimum: it is your responsibility to get mortgage protection insurance if you are sickly enough to require it.
You might think it harsh, but last time I checked, we were not Communists, and our economy can't afford it even if we were.
I really cannot understand the lack of motivation of some. Yes, there is the unwritten agreement with the company to work hard such that they look after you, and yes that is abused at times, but the posts above are completely imbalanced.
You might think it harsh, but last time I checked, we were not Communists, and our economy can't afford it even if we were.
I really cannot understand the lack of motivation of some. Yes, there is the unwritten agreement with the company to work hard such that they look after you, and yes that is abused at times, but the posts above are completely imbalanced.
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What's first class trained got to do with salary..?? nothing..
Really, your sister is on £30 000, and been flying since '95.??
That's interesting as I've been flying since '92, and if I was full-time, my salary would be £28 000.. Not much different, but different all the same..
Really, your sister is on £30 000, and been flying since '95.??
That's interesting as I've been flying since '92, and if I was full-time, my salary would be £28 000.. Not much different, but different all the same..
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Are not higher levels of sickness a symptom of traditionally poor management and supervision. The symptom is not exclusive at BA to CC but is manifest throughout the company. It must be noted that high levels of sickness are sometimes associated with the variouis activitys taken place within the UK - Wimbledon used to be one of them.
NECC start pay is indeed about £11,000 and let us not forget there are a couple of hundred in the job pool waiting for employment and also many thousands of othes out there. If BA management had a mind to they could swamp the area with new rate staff. PC is not new and not exclusive it is reflected across the company in particular Ramp services, Turnaround Managers and Passenger Services centre at Newcastle, all three areas having been specifically changed and back filled with staff on new and lower rates of pay.
The plus point is that BA have been doing this since I joined nearky 40 years ago. It is always a focus when business is poor, however, once it picks up again and with the arrival of the A380 we will hit the panic button again and staus quo will remain until the next crisis. Happy Xmas!
NECC start pay is indeed about £11,000 and let us not forget there are a couple of hundred in the job pool waiting for employment and also many thousands of othes out there. If BA management had a mind to they could swamp the area with new rate staff. PC is not new and not exclusive it is reflected across the company in particular Ramp services, Turnaround Managers and Passenger Services centre at Newcastle, all three areas having been specifically changed and back filled with staff on new and lower rates of pay.
The plus point is that BA have been doing this since I joined nearky 40 years ago. It is always a focus when business is poor, however, once it picks up again and with the arrival of the A380 we will hit the panic button again and staus quo will remain until the next crisis. Happy Xmas!
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I have to say, having read the document, that I see it as a totally factual and unbiased summary of the current situation.
Rather than defending the status quo by deflecting attention elsewhere (like mentioning WW's salary, change from the top, BA pilots deal of a few years ago) why not point out to us where the document is factually incorrect?
Go on, we are all ears?
Rather than defending the status quo by deflecting attention elsewhere (like mentioning WW's salary, change from the top, BA pilots deal of a few years ago) why not point out to us where the document is factually incorrect?
Go on, we are all ears?
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I think Re- Heat missed to point. My basic if I don't fly is 863pm total , not stat sick pay. I get that same total for my 30days leave that I have to take each year. I can not afford to take an annual hol.
If I was ever off long term sick with a chronic illness I'd earn that same amount until stat sick pay kicked in.
Again I state. If a BA pilot takes a 20% pay rise on an average salary of 75,000pa to accept an hourly rate. Thats a 15,000 pa pay rise. If I got a 20% pay rise thatsan extra 172 pm rise.
If I was ever off long term sick with a chronic illness I'd earn that same amount until stat sick pay kicked in.
Again I state. If a BA pilot takes a 20% pay rise on an average salary of 75,000pa to accept an hourly rate. Thats a 15,000 pa pay rise. If I got a 20% pay rise thatsan extra 172 pm rise.
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The Moo,
Do not compare our wages and T&C's to that of the flight crew. It's a completely pointless exercise. We did not spend an average of £75,000 and train for 18 odd months to become cabin crew. We are, technically, unskilled workers and if you look around, especially on the ground, £860.00 is pretty much the average for unskilled workers. The difference between them and us is that, unlike us, most don't have the opportunity to top those wages up with flight pay, commision, allowances etc.
I will agree with you totally regarding holiday pay, as we, legally, shouldn't be penalised for having to take annual leave but that's something that the flight crew have had to fight for and that we will now fight for. On the other hand, while it is damned hard when you're off on long term sick, unfortunately, that's the nature of the job and it is something that we knew about when we signed up for this flying malarky. At least we do get our basic, rather than the statutory sick pay allowance. A lot don't.
I'm not trying to talk our role down but comparing us to others in the company is a waste of time and achieves nothing.
Jsl
Do not compare our wages and T&C's to that of the flight crew. It's a completely pointless exercise. We did not spend an average of £75,000 and train for 18 odd months to become cabin crew. We are, technically, unskilled workers and if you look around, especially on the ground, £860.00 is pretty much the average for unskilled workers. The difference between them and us is that, unlike us, most don't have the opportunity to top those wages up with flight pay, commision, allowances etc.
I will agree with you totally regarding holiday pay, as we, legally, shouldn't be penalised for having to take annual leave but that's something that the flight crew have had to fight for and that we will now fight for. On the other hand, while it is damned hard when you're off on long term sick, unfortunately, that's the nature of the job and it is something that we knew about when we signed up for this flying malarky. At least we do get our basic, rather than the statutory sick pay allowance. A lot don't.
I'm not trying to talk our role down but comparing us to others in the company is a waste of time and achieves nothing.
Jsl
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If a BA pilot takes a 20% pay rise on an average salary of 75,000pa to accept an hourly rate.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Personally, I broke even moving to the hourly rate. My basic pay went up by around 5%.
Very few pilots saw their basic pay go up by anything like 20% to be honest. The ones who did best from the deal were junior Captains who had historically been significantly underpaid to that point. The proof being senior longhaul co-pilots who, when the allowances were being taken into account, were taking home more than junior Captains on the same fleet. There was no incentive either for these people to bid for shorthaul commands as that would also have meant a pay cut, particularly moving down to LGW. Now, you will not find a Captain who takes home less than a co-pilot on the same fleet and LGW pilots on the same deal as LHR pilots, albeit with a pay cap. Overall, a forward step IMHO.
Very few pilots saw their basic pay go up by anything like 20% to be honest. The ones who did best from the deal were junior Captains who had historically been significantly underpaid to that point. The proof being senior longhaul co-pilots who, when the allowances were being taken into account, were taking home more than junior Captains on the same fleet. There was no incentive either for these people to bid for shorthaul commands as that would also have meant a pay cut, particularly moving down to LGW. Now, you will not find a Captain who takes home less than a co-pilot on the same fleet and LGW pilots on the same deal as LHR pilots, albeit with a pay cap. Overall, a forward step IMHO.
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My understanding is that there were a small number of pilots who received such pay rises. These individuals were senior Concorde pilots who around that time, moved to longhaul due to the aircraft going out of service. People who flew Concorde, did not do so for the money, hence it was not especially well paid. Transferring to a better paid fleet was by far the biggest contributor to those individuals' 20% pay rise.
Quoting 20% pay rises for the pilots, is basically like the cabin crew getting a 3% pay rise across the company one year, and then quoting that you got a 20% pay rise because a few crew transferred from LGW to LHR long haul around the same time, with the associated increase in their pay.
It's a good figure to throw around, to try to create envy, and to try and get yourself a payrise or defend your pay, but in reality, these pilots achieved their large pay rises by effectively changing jobs.
Quoting 20% pay rises for the pilots, is basically like the cabin crew getting a 3% pay rise across the company one year, and then quoting that you got a 20% pay rise because a few crew transferred from LGW to LHR long haul around the same time, with the associated increase in their pay.
It's a good figure to throw around, to try to create envy, and to try and get yourself a payrise or defend your pay, but in reality, these pilots achieved their large pay rises by effectively changing jobs.
Join Date: May 1999
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And what has ANY pilots salary got to do with cabin crew deals? They are totally differant jobs requiring totally diferant qualifications. Apart from working on the same aircraft the similarity stops there. You would have more credability within the company from the top down if you/BASSA stuck to facts and compared like with like. All the spin and childish literature frm BASSA makes you look ridiculous to be honest; something i dislike as i know there are many well educated and rounded CC out there.
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3Greens is correct. What BA wish is to pay us are T & C akin with the UK average. I would hazard a guess that that is thousands of pounds per annum less than we at BA get. CC are 14,000 strong correct me and as such will retain some clout for the foreseeable future. We have to realise that the day of great changes gets closer. Shoiuld be OK till 2012!
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where the document is factually incorrect?
I see a fractious, but uncontestible, defeat for BASSA/CC89 in 2009, and the relentless transfer of all 'lucrative' routes (you know what they are) to the new fleet over the next 2-3 years.
BASSA (especially) is well overdue being brought down a peg or ten. Their lack of recognition of reality is going to come home to roost. Without it, BA's future is in doubt [14,000 CC x £10,000pa = £140,000,000 pa].
There are in addition, still 5,000 staff to be got rid off (@£25,000 pa = £75,000,000).
Thumbs up to Willie on this.
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Topbunk, You go first then. How much are you willing to give back to Willie per month? How about just taking enough to live on? Would you have Openskies fly your sectors on their T & C's?
