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World of business
Thank you 13, apologies for the spelling, I was a little tired, it happens sometimes, but quite right Cayman. As for the world of business, I have always worked my friend, I am not some sort of workshy person, I believe that everybody who is fit and able should support themselves and their family.
I have seen business both here and also in Germany at close hand, and I tell you something, the managerial ethic in Britain is light years behind my friends. In Germany every business has a workers council and this is activly encouraged by management. They work together for the good of all concerned. The saleries, working conditions, training and moral of the staff are way ahead of this dismal performance we have here (no disrespect to any particular person, many managers do work very hard, but they are confined within the structure they have to work with, any desention is dealt with swiftly and they are out on their ear).
Everything works in Germany my friend. If you go to use a highloader, or a de-icing truck or a computer, it works. Futhermore, they do not run their businesses from 1 budget to another, their planning is always long term they think 10 years into the future. Anyone flown Lufthansa recently, or been on a German train, or driven a German car, why is it so good? because the staff are treated well and in return have great loyalty for whom they work.
Expression is activly encouraged, open debate is encouraged, if you have something to say you say it without and qualms of someone firing you for it.
Now in this country, staff are treated shockingly, as a hinderence and an unwelcome burden on a yearly budget, worker protection legislation such as we have, is viewed with scorn, as something to be got around and avoided, underhand and devious does not even begin to express the almost mandatory requirement for British Management.
Now I am very proud to be British, but the way our business affairs are conducted is routed in hypocrasy and distrust. The absolute trimming of everything to the bare bones, short termness in thinking and planning. I believe it is our 'business men' who really need to learn about business thank you, because, our performance compared to other first world countries is wofull.
Before they start sacking a few staff for having a slagging off session on the internet, and blame them for tarnishing their beautiful company, they should look at themselves and their own conduct and ask is it honourable and if they just might be doing something to tarnish the beauty of not only their company but our country and the world at large.
What they have been doing my friends is called finding scapegoats, for problems that run much much deeper, but we will never see a headline in the newspaper about that.
"British management, the laughing stock of Europe!" lets get that fixed first.
Oh have I said too much? I expect I'll be gettng a call soon, the difference is that I dont fear these people!
I have seen business both here and also in Germany at close hand, and I tell you something, the managerial ethic in Britain is light years behind my friends. In Germany every business has a workers council and this is activly encouraged by management. They work together for the good of all concerned. The saleries, working conditions, training and moral of the staff are way ahead of this dismal performance we have here (no disrespect to any particular person, many managers do work very hard, but they are confined within the structure they have to work with, any desention is dealt with swiftly and they are out on their ear).
Everything works in Germany my friend. If you go to use a highloader, or a de-icing truck or a computer, it works. Futhermore, they do not run their businesses from 1 budget to another, their planning is always long term they think 10 years into the future. Anyone flown Lufthansa recently, or been on a German train, or driven a German car, why is it so good? because the staff are treated well and in return have great loyalty for whom they work.
Expression is activly encouraged, open debate is encouraged, if you have something to say you say it without and qualms of someone firing you for it.
Now in this country, staff are treated shockingly, as a hinderence and an unwelcome burden on a yearly budget, worker protection legislation such as we have, is viewed with scorn, as something to be got around and avoided, underhand and devious does not even begin to express the almost mandatory requirement for British Management.
Now I am very proud to be British, but the way our business affairs are conducted is routed in hypocrasy and distrust. The absolute trimming of everything to the bare bones, short termness in thinking and planning. I believe it is our 'business men' who really need to learn about business thank you, because, our performance compared to other first world countries is wofull.
Before they start sacking a few staff for having a slagging off session on the internet, and blame them for tarnishing their beautiful company, they should look at themselves and their own conduct and ask is it honourable and if they just might be doing something to tarnish the beauty of not only their company but our country and the world at large.
What they have been doing my friends is called finding scapegoats, for problems that run much much deeper, but we will never see a headline in the newspaper about that.
"British management, the laughing stock of Europe!" lets get that fixed first.
Oh have I said too much? I expect I'll be gettng a call soon, the difference is that I dont fear these people!
Last edited by Magic Buff; 14th Nov 2008 at 21:23.
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Well I didn't even read his/her post so can't comment on the spelling.........but a little basic education in syntax (paragraphs to make the post easier to read) wouldn't go amiss.
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Seeing the word 'speech' spelt incorrectly, then having someone start ranting about Rememberance Day (quite what the connection there is, I have no idea), I could not be arsed to sit and read through such drivel.
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Says it all really sillymoo
What we are talking about Silly Moo is the freedom of expression. I apologise for my bad spelling. I do know how to write the word speach, but having lived abroad a long time and having spoken languages from other countrys I sometimes get my spelling confused. For this I am sorry! However the sentiment is the same, this is a common tactic of Management. When they are uncomfortable with the substance they take the conversation away at a tangent to avoid this issue.
If you havent read our comments Silly Moo, how do you know it is drivel? Something tells me there is a small pork pie in that statement. Of course you have read it, what you mean is that you dont like it. So come on this is one of the things I am talking about Honesty my friend. If you really havent read it then before you thrown in drivel of your own, I suggest you do. Can anyone smell a hypocrite?
If you havent read our comments Silly Moo, how do you know it is drivel? Something tells me there is a small pork pie in that statement. Of course you have read it, what you mean is that you dont like it. So come on this is one of the things I am talking about Honesty my friend. If you really havent read it then before you thrown in drivel of your own, I suggest you do. Can anyone smell a hypocrite?
Last edited by Magic Buff; 14th Nov 2008 at 21:21.
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syntax (paragraphs to make the post easier to read) wouldn't go amiss.
Magic Buff - take note please - your prose is almost impenetrable: break it up a little and you may well increase your audience.
Of course, you may not, since (from what little I can be bothered to read) you appear to be setting yourself up as some sort of champion of democracy and free speech. This is usually unwise, especially when it is irrelevant to the thread topic.
Now, may we please move on.
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Sorry Mr Moderator
I apologise again for my poor spelling. I am not setting myself up as anything! but I do believe that free speach is relevant to this topic sir, as these people have been fired for using it! I cant see anything more relevant to this discussion and I have noticed that at least some people do agree with me. I will try to tidy up my prose though, thanks for the advice.
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Thank you
On a technical point: They haven't been fired for using free speech. They have been fired for a breech of contract.
Free speech has accepted limitations - see HERE
On a technical point: They haven't been fired for using free speech. They have been fired for a breech of contract.
Free speech has accepted limitations - see HERE
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Same thing really
Ok I see your point, but what they have been punished for is breach of contract, which was I believe 'bringing the company into disrepute.'
Now as I understand it, this 'disreputing' was not done in the workplace, but in their private time when they were expressing their views and opinions between a themselves. It is my view therefore that freedom of speach does come into this. I'm sorry Mr Moderator, technically you may be correct, but morally I believe I am correct. You have the wip hand here, but are we not allowed to raise these points?
Now as I understand it, this 'disreputing' was not done in the workplace, but in their private time when they were expressing their views and opinions between a themselves. It is my view therefore that freedom of speach does come into this. I'm sorry Mr Moderator, technically you may be correct, but morally I believe I am correct. You have the wip hand here, but are we not allowed to raise these points?
Magic Buff
IMHO Tightslot is spot on, and also, sadly IMHO you are starting to sound like one of the "I know my rights, don't bother me with responsibilities" brigade.
Yes, freedom of speech comes into it this issue, but remember so does the passengers freedom to book with an airline whose employee's don't trash their customers on a widely accessable website......
IMHO Tightslot is spot on, and also, sadly IMHO you are starting to sound like one of the "I know my rights, don't bother me with responsibilities" brigade.
Yes, freedom of speech comes into it this issue, but remember so does the passengers freedom to book with an airline whose employee's don't trash their customers on a widely accessable website......
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Oh dear Wiggy
Wiggy for information only my friend, I have born my responsibilities as most of us do through 20 odd years of hard work, I have earned my freedoms.
Now the passengers have their rights and the company has it's rights, but the cabin crew (off duty) have their rights as well.
It is a thin end of the wedge, when do we start getting told we cant talk about work in the pub, or in church or at any other social activity, in case someone overhears us and goes whinging to our bosses demanding to get us sacked.
Absolute rubbish! if someone doesnt like something I say, they have every right to front me about it and say ' I didnt like what you have said!' and we can talk about it.
Now going around grassing you up for something you said out of work, isnt that underhand! maybe they should have had the bottle to confront those people themselves and ask them about it if it annoyed them so much. Maybe they shouldnt have been earwigging on someone else's conversation and got upset when they heard something they didnt like. Or just maybe they thought ah, a bunch of Virgin Cabin crew here slagging off us and the company, I think I will make a name for myself.Or just maybe they should get a thicker skin. Or just maybe they should have been intelligent enough to realise that here are a group of people letting off a bit of steam.
Now these people have performed their responsibilities as far as I understand it. They go to work every day, they work hard, they do as they are told, they probably do many many favours for both the company and the passengers, they probably go home every night knackerd, they pay their Taxes and they havn't broken any laws, all they have done is have a chat with their mates out of work about their job, shame on those who would deny them that right!
Now the passengers have their rights and the company has it's rights, but the cabin crew (off duty) have their rights as well.
It is a thin end of the wedge, when do we start getting told we cant talk about work in the pub, or in church or at any other social activity, in case someone overhears us and goes whinging to our bosses demanding to get us sacked.
Absolute rubbish! if someone doesnt like something I say, they have every right to front me about it and say ' I didnt like what you have said!' and we can talk about it.
Now going around grassing you up for something you said out of work, isnt that underhand! maybe they should have had the bottle to confront those people themselves and ask them about it if it annoyed them so much. Maybe they shouldnt have been earwigging on someone else's conversation and got upset when they heard something they didnt like. Or just maybe they thought ah, a bunch of Virgin Cabin crew here slagging off us and the company, I think I will make a name for myself.Or just maybe they should get a thicker skin. Or just maybe they should have been intelligent enough to realise that here are a group of people letting off a bit of steam.
Now these people have performed their responsibilities as far as I understand it. They go to work every day, they work hard, they do as they are told, they probably do many many favours for both the company and the passengers, they probably go home every night knackerd, they pay their Taxes and they havn't broken any laws, all they have done is have a chat with their mates out of work about their job, shame on those who would deny them that right!
Magic Buff
Gee thanks..., "for information only my friend" I,too,have born my responsibilities,especially when I spent many years defending the precious freedoms you go on about, weaing a uniform of the non Airline variety...I guess you'll now pidgeon hole me as a Reactionary Old f***t despite the fact I subscribe to Private Eye and read the Guardian
Whinging about your Customers in an identifiable manner on the internet should be a firing offence for being b***dy stupid, never mind demonstrating a lack of judgement and lack of "security" awareness.
Anyhow I'm off to exercise my right to Freedom of speech right now, in civvies, in the pub..........I might even grumble about you
Gee thanks..., "for information only my friend" I,too,have born my responsibilities,especially when I spent many years defending the precious freedoms you go on about, weaing a uniform of the non Airline variety...I guess you'll now pidgeon hole me as a Reactionary Old f***t despite the fact I subscribe to Private Eye and read the Guardian
Whinging about your Customers in an identifiable manner on the internet should be a firing offence for being b***dy stupid, never mind demonstrating a lack of judgement and lack of "security" awareness.
Anyhow I'm off to exercise my right to Freedom of speech right now, in civvies, in the pub..........I might even grumble about you
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Does the punishment fit the crime? No. It is a bit of management muscle flexing. You lot pushed us to a near strike, so we are readdressing the balance. Keep in line or you are out the door.
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Not at all
I wouldnt pidgeon hole you sir, not at all, you can be reactionarry or not as the case may be, that is your choice, I dont belittle the work that you have done and I admire you for the fact that you have done your duty to protect our freedoms.
What I stand for is that given that people such as yourselves have done your bit to protect our freedoms, that we should be allowed to exercise those very freedoms, and that is what these people have done, nothing more and nothing less.
So if we are serious about protecting our freedoms, perhaps we should start with the 5th columnists who have infiltrated our society, who would have those freedoms removed from us and punish us for using them.
Actually with a view to turning us into a timmid group of YES Men who will never question and just obay what our masters tell us and who work slavishly for them.
This would be great of course, the only problem being is that they are in it not for the benefit of all, but purely for the enrichment and empowerment of themselves.
Well sir the British people have never been ones to take that lying down from anyone and you of all people should see this.
The British are a nation of wingers and moaners, it is a national passtime and all Facebook has done is give us another forum on which we can whinge and moan. God bless the whinging and moaning and may it survive and prosper. it is what makes us great.
What I stand for is that given that people such as yourselves have done your bit to protect our freedoms, that we should be allowed to exercise those very freedoms, and that is what these people have done, nothing more and nothing less.
So if we are serious about protecting our freedoms, perhaps we should start with the 5th columnists who have infiltrated our society, who would have those freedoms removed from us and punish us for using them.
Actually with a view to turning us into a timmid group of YES Men who will never question and just obay what our masters tell us and who work slavishly for them.
This would be great of course, the only problem being is that they are in it not for the benefit of all, but purely for the enrichment and empowerment of themselves.
Well sir the British people have never been ones to take that lying down from anyone and you of all people should see this.
The British are a nation of wingers and moaners, it is a national passtime and all Facebook has done is give us another forum on which we can whinge and moan. God bless the whinging and moaning and may it survive and prosper. it is what makes us great.
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I agreee Magic Buff we are a nation of moaners.
I would have to disagree with the fact that we are a nation of wingers, I think you will find that under Martin Johnson our forwards are a lot stronger, as tradditionally they always have been. This is why the Australians have been pushing for rugby union rules to go down the same route as the rugby league rules as that would favour their style of play.
As for having a pop at my company with my mates/colleagues over a pint down the local, or even on board is not unheard of. Publishing your thoughts (including unfounded accusations with regards the safety of some aircraft) on a public site such as Face Book is just plain stupid. With that level of intelligence I am surprised they passed the selection process.
I would have to disagree with the fact that we are a nation of wingers, I think you will find that under Martin Johnson our forwards are a lot stronger, as tradditionally they always have been. This is why the Australians have been pushing for rugby union rules to go down the same route as the rugby league rules as that would favour their style of play.
As for having a pop at my company with my mates/colleagues over a pint down the local, or even on board is not unheard of. Publishing your thoughts (including unfounded accusations with regards the safety of some aircraft) on a public site such as Face Book is just plain stupid. With that level of intelligence I am surprised they passed the selection process.
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Aussies.
Well the Aussies have known us as a nation of moaners for many a good year, 'Prisoners Of Mother England,' and all that.
I am going to use an old quotation here please forvgive me if it is not spot on.
"I may not like what you say, but I will defend until my last breath your right to say it."
This is what I am standing up for!! now some people may think they were stupid for saying these things on Facebook, and maybe from a tactical point of view and a purely self interested point of view (as in their bosses might find out) then it could be seen as nieve.
However if the company has nothing to hide why stop it's staff talking on Facebook, only those with something to hide need to have secrets, maybe the general flying public would like to know about that dont you think?
The fact that they have used draconian measures to prevent them tells me they have rather a lot to hide. Hmm I wonder what that could be, anyone want to help me with that?
It also seems that they have made an example of these staff to deter any of their other staff from exercising their freedom of speach, so it is not Just 13 people who are being punished, it is thousands and of course this sends out a loud signal to everyone else in the industry, that if you use you freedom of speach and dare to critisize the company you work for then you will be fired, affecting hundreds of thousands, and then to the working population of the whole country, affecting millions.
All of this without any legal footing or recourse to parliament or anybody except their own managing directors.
How dare they and who do they think they are? we elect people to parliament to decide on such issues. It is not up to some slimy little unelected self intersted pompous twerp who just happens to have a massive house in the home counties and about 3 yaghts in the Carrabean, to decide who can say what and were and when, if I were those people I would go all the way with this, right to the European court, because they would win!
Now why should people in their private time having a moan about work have to worry about what their bosses think, it isnt up to their bosses to decide what they can think and say.
It's the kind of thing that used to go on in Eastern Europe, everyone spying on everyone and then denouncing them, if this is the way our society is going then we need to buck our bleeding attitudes up pretty damn fast.
There seems to be an awful number of people knocking about who have been sucked in and either dont want people to have their freedoms, or have been conned into believing that it is not important, well there will always be some of us who represent an uncomfortable thorn in their side.
Just call me Winston, and 2 plus 2 EQUALS 4, and it will never ever be 5.
I am going to use an old quotation here please forvgive me if it is not spot on.
"I may not like what you say, but I will defend until my last breath your right to say it."
This is what I am standing up for!! now some people may think they were stupid for saying these things on Facebook, and maybe from a tactical point of view and a purely self interested point of view (as in their bosses might find out) then it could be seen as nieve.
However if the company has nothing to hide why stop it's staff talking on Facebook, only those with something to hide need to have secrets, maybe the general flying public would like to know about that dont you think?
The fact that they have used draconian measures to prevent them tells me they have rather a lot to hide. Hmm I wonder what that could be, anyone want to help me with that?
It also seems that they have made an example of these staff to deter any of their other staff from exercising their freedom of speach, so it is not Just 13 people who are being punished, it is thousands and of course this sends out a loud signal to everyone else in the industry, that if you use you freedom of speach and dare to critisize the company you work for then you will be fired, affecting hundreds of thousands, and then to the working population of the whole country, affecting millions.
All of this without any legal footing or recourse to parliament or anybody except their own managing directors.
How dare they and who do they think they are? we elect people to parliament to decide on such issues. It is not up to some slimy little unelected self intersted pompous twerp who just happens to have a massive house in the home counties and about 3 yaghts in the Carrabean, to decide who can say what and were and when, if I were those people I would go all the way with this, right to the European court, because they would win!
Now why should people in their private time having a moan about work have to worry about what their bosses think, it isnt up to their bosses to decide what they can think and say.
It's the kind of thing that used to go on in Eastern Europe, everyone spying on everyone and then denouncing them, if this is the way our society is going then we need to buck our bleeding attitudes up pretty damn fast.
There seems to be an awful number of people knocking about who have been sucked in and either dont want people to have their freedoms, or have been conned into believing that it is not important, well there will always be some of us who represent an uncomfortable thorn in their side.
Just call me Winston, and 2 plus 2 EQUALS 4, and it will never ever be 5.
Gender Faculty Specialist
but in their private time when they were expressing their views and opinions between a themselves
Source Wikipedia:
In practice, the right to freedom of speech is not absolute in any country and the right is commonly subject to limitations, such as on "hate speech". This is because exercising freedom of speech always takes place within a context of competing values.
I would go all the way with this, right to the European court, because they would win!
I have born my responsibilities
Last edited by Chesty Morgan; 15th Nov 2008 at 08:26.
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Whinging about your Customers in an identifiable manner on the internet should be a firing offence for being b***dy stupid, never mind demonstrating a lack of judgement and lack of "security" awareness.
Strong contenders for the Darwin Awards 2008
Magic Buff, your puerile discourses on "Freedom of Speech" are becoming tiresome, any chance of you might cease transmitting?
No, thought not!
Dick
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Dick sums it up!
Well Dick, I am not about to shut up just because you would like me too. My "purile discourses" are very valid, and you are using one of the classic tactics in how to avoid confronting an issue.
What you do is avoid a subject by taking it off at a tangent, by belitteling the views and opinions of others that you disagree with, talk about things like spelling mistakes etc. This is called using a smokescreen.
Why are you afraid to confront and discuss the real issues at stake here ?
Of course you can say what you want and whilst I may not like what you say, I firmly stand by your right to say it, it is a shame that you do not extend the same courtesy to others. Maybe you may learn things from it !
No thought not!
What you do is avoid a subject by taking it off at a tangent, by belitteling the views and opinions of others that you disagree with, talk about things like spelling mistakes etc. This is called using a smokescreen.
Why are you afraid to confront and discuss the real issues at stake here ?
Of course you can say what you want and whilst I may not like what you say, I firmly stand by your right to say it, it is a shame that you do not extend the same courtesy to others. Maybe you may learn things from it !
No thought not!