Virgin Blue Cabin Crew EBA
shoppingcart,
I've long been a strong supporter of the FAAA. I have been unashamedly vocal (much to my own detriment with management) and supportive of them from the day I joined to the day I ceased flying. Even though I don't fly anymore, I still encourage my network of friends to sign up and support.
I don't doubt the FAAA chose a conservative path in the hope of achieving the best result in good faith. CT (now CS?) is an intelligent and gutsy leader, and knows when a battle can be won or lost, right or wrong.
Nonetheless, now is the time to take action. My beef is not with past decisions and actions, but the seemingly consistent conservative approach that yields few results from a gung-ho and seat-of-their-pants management (a management that respects anything but approaching negotiations in a fair and reasonable manner).
If there was ever a time to show a bit of strength, take action, and give the company a good wake up call, it is now.
FWA sent a strong signal to the company that they are on thin ice.
Industrial action does not have to mean strike - if anything a strong campaign aimed where it will hurt (the 'ego' of the virgin brand) will get results. Whether that be a 'work to rule' or limiting crew to safety only duties (ie no service), it WILL achieve results. You CAN NOT do a service on a boeing with just 2 crew!
What reason does the union give to non-members (to join) otherwise? My point is, unless the union shows some tangible value, membership will dwindle and they will continue to be perceived as pointless, or worse, too close to management (which I think is not the case).
At least rocky either goes down fighting or triumphs against all odds.
Why would I still care? (I'm not flying anymore after all). Well my mortgage still depends on a fair outcome, as does the mortgage of many of my friends.
NOW is the best chance they may ever have. Again - if the company wont take the FAAA seriously at 50% membership, thats a perfect excuse to show them why they should!
I've long been a strong supporter of the FAAA. I have been unashamedly vocal (much to my own detriment with management) and supportive of them from the day I joined to the day I ceased flying. Even though I don't fly anymore, I still encourage my network of friends to sign up and support.
I don't doubt the FAAA chose a conservative path in the hope of achieving the best result in good faith. CT (now CS?) is an intelligent and gutsy leader, and knows when a battle can be won or lost, right or wrong.
Nonetheless, now is the time to take action. My beef is not with past decisions and actions, but the seemingly consistent conservative approach that yields few results from a gung-ho and seat-of-their-pants management (a management that respects anything but approaching negotiations in a fair and reasonable manner).
If there was ever a time to show a bit of strength, take action, and give the company a good wake up call, it is now.
FWA sent a strong signal to the company that they are on thin ice.
Industrial action does not have to mean strike - if anything a strong campaign aimed where it will hurt (the 'ego' of the virgin brand) will get results. Whether that be a 'work to rule' or limiting crew to safety only duties (ie no service), it WILL achieve results. You CAN NOT do a service on a boeing with just 2 crew!
What reason does the union give to non-members (to join) otherwise? My point is, unless the union shows some tangible value, membership will dwindle and they will continue to be perceived as pointless, or worse, too close to management (which I think is not the case).
At least rocky either goes down fighting or triumphs against all odds.
Why would I still care? (I'm not flying anymore after all). Well my mortgage still depends on a fair outcome, as does the mortgage of many of my friends.
NOW is the best chance they may ever have. Again - if the company wont take the FAAA seriously at 50% membership, thats a perfect excuse to show them why they should!
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shoppingcart: it is refreshing to see that there are still some people that can see the situation for what it really is - a headstrong company unwilling to bargain or meet any demands made by its crew.
There are countless free-riders complaining about the FAAA's lack of integrity, the FAAA siding with the company, the FAAA not doing enough to protect their working conditions and not exerting enough power. I am sick of hearing crew complain about the FAAA not doing enough for them when they aren't even paying members! If they are not willing to join the FAAA and appoint them as their bargaining representative in this process, then what exactly are they doing to help protect our conditions?
Virgin Blue management is quite aware of the fact that their cabin crew are NOT united as only half of them are members of the FAAA. If you were a Virgin Blue executive, would you submit to the demands made by a union that only represents half of your workforce?
The union is very conservative when it comes to the negotiation process and when dealing with breaches of the EBA on behalf of its members to ensure they do not affect company profitability in a detrimental manner. They do not want the company fined $30,000 for every breach of the EBA or have the company lose paying passengers as a result of a strike. They want the company to succeed financially as this will ensure that all of our jobs are protected.
However, I do agree with ozangel in regards to a consistently conservative approach not yielding results. Now is the time for the FAAA to take whatever action is necessary to achieve the results they desire and it is also about time that, as cabin crew, we start utilising the strength that comes with unity and use the expertise of a union to ensure that collectively, we are bargaining on an equal footing with our employer.
It's quite simple really, if you're not part of the FAAA, who is representing you?
There are countless free-riders complaining about the FAAA's lack of integrity, the FAAA siding with the company, the FAAA not doing enough to protect their working conditions and not exerting enough power. I am sick of hearing crew complain about the FAAA not doing enough for them when they aren't even paying members! If they are not willing to join the FAAA and appoint them as their bargaining representative in this process, then what exactly are they doing to help protect our conditions?
Virgin Blue management is quite aware of the fact that their cabin crew are NOT united as only half of them are members of the FAAA. If you were a Virgin Blue executive, would you submit to the demands made by a union that only represents half of your workforce?
The union is very conservative when it comes to the negotiation process and when dealing with breaches of the EBA on behalf of its members to ensure they do not affect company profitability in a detrimental manner. They do not want the company fined $30,000 for every breach of the EBA or have the company lose paying passengers as a result of a strike. They want the company to succeed financially as this will ensure that all of our jobs are protected.
However, I do agree with ozangel in regards to a consistently conservative approach not yielding results. Now is the time for the FAAA to take whatever action is necessary to achieve the results they desire and it is also about time that, as cabin crew, we start utilising the strength that comes with unity and use the expertise of a union to ensure that collectively, we are bargaining on an equal footing with our employer.
It's quite simple really, if you're not part of the FAAA, who is representing you?
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crew vs crew
I agree with vbg, shopcart and ozA, on the union issues, in particular, at a time we need them most, Crew should take control, and stand united, whether as a collective group (NOT a consultative committee!) or as union members.
I prefer the latter,-because I'd be darned taking on our company with it's team of legals by my self! Who's going to the court dates off thier own back to oppose the EBA being terminated?? Black listed for sure should any promotions etc come around!
I really don't want to see a culture of union crew vs non union crew but when you put it that way vbgirl, it seem's we are paying for others free loading, not doing anything (correct me if i'm wrong!) to protect our eba and working conditions. Is that not what the company is counting on? a split? come on crew, wake up, get active for yourself and for you team mates... your union fees are tax deductable, and if anything, treat it like insurance.... something that you despise paying for but ultimately need just in case, saving you in the long run!
Now, not to be counterproductive to my previous rant, but where exactly does that $30,000 money go when a fine is imposed??
And quote in The Australian Business (online) yesterday....
Again, we don't want to damage our earnings too much, but a simple publicity campaign like OzAngel said could really go a long way.....
I prefer the latter,-because I'd be darned taking on our company with it's team of legals by my self! Who's going to the court dates off thier own back to oppose the EBA being terminated?? Black listed for sure should any promotions etc come around!
I really don't want to see a culture of union crew vs non union crew but when you put it that way vbgirl, it seem's we are paying for others free loading, not doing anything (correct me if i'm wrong!) to protect our eba and working conditions. Is that not what the company is counting on? a split? come on crew, wake up, get active for yourself and for you team mates... your union fees are tax deductable, and if anything, treat it like insurance.... something that you despise paying for but ultimately need just in case, saving you in the long run!
Now, not to be counterproductive to my previous rant, but where exactly does that $30,000 money go when a fine is imposed??
And quote in The Australian Business (online) yesterday....
Meanwhile, Virgin Blue ground crew have rejected a proposed enterprise agreement, with 69 per cent of the workers voting against the deal.
Virgin is also facing a legal stoush with its flight attendants over a new enterprise agreement.
Virgin is also facing a legal stoush with its flight attendants over a new enterprise agreement.
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couple of things
Firstly, i am a member of the FAAA and therefore support them, at least so far as the concept of union membership goes. I understand your point VB Girl in regards to many crew not being members of FAAA and enjoying the spoils but are they really? What spoils exactly do they enjoy? As has been mentioned, the union in it's 'conservativeness' doesn't impose fines when the company breaches the conditions of our EBA because you say they want the company to remain viable.
However, if fines are never imposed then what's the point? No wonder the company walks all over the FAAA, the FAAA allows it to, the FAAA has never taken a hardline approach. How about some tough love? The company is quite happy to milk all it can out of us! This is why crew decide not to join, they see no action, no real consequences for breaches. If a $30,000 fine here and there is going to push the company over the edge then our jobs are in a pretty precarious position anyway. And fear of putting the company in the red? Why is the FAAA so concerned with such folly when the company isn't? Branson himself at the launch of VAustralia made the comment (not verbatim) to the media whilst onboard the inaugural flight from LA "hey we know there's a recession but we're gonna do it anyway! hahaha" So just to clarify, the FAAA is more concerned about the company making a quid than it's quintessential face and millionaire brand-name owner? The FAAA should be working as hard as it can for it's members, regardless of the number it has. It shouldn't matter whether there is 1 or 1500 members, if but one person is paying a fee for a service (representation), then they should receive the service. To argue that the FAAA can't do much because it doesn't have enough members makes me wonder what my fees are paying for? And this is exactly the reason why people pull out! For all their expertise, surely the FAAA should have considered the fact that the people don't join because they hear the same old story..."not enough people are members so we can't do much for you...", "we're only as good as the number of members we have and we don't have many" etc. No wonder people don't join, they feel that there is no point, that their money will be a waste because nobody else is joining. The FAAA, in an effort to rally support, has shot themself in the foot. They promoted membership on the basis that it was needed because hardly anyone was a member...how about promoting membership by advertising what they will do for us? Put your best foot forward, focus on the positive. People want to see results, see what their membership represents, they want action!!! They don't want to know they are signing up to a lacklustre and ineffectual group that hardly anyone aspires to be a member of and that Virginblue doesn't rate (or fear)! The fact that the senior management of the FAAA has not figured this out is beyond me. It makes me wonder whether they use lack of membership as an excuse for poor results...I support a number of charities on a monthly basis and at the end of every financial year i get a summary of where/how my donations were spent, why don't i get that from the FAAA?
That said, at the end of the day - and i do hope VB Management, who don't usually post on PPRUNE...ten points for making me laugh!...are also reading this - if the current (expired) EBA is successfully cancelled and the company chooses to put in place what was so strongly rejected by 77% of the cabin crew - with or without the cash payments - then they too need some advice from specialists' outside of the company. If 77% of your frontline staff are unhappy, how's that going to be for business? Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the correct answer but, somehow management is still crying poor despite the fact that we actually played a large part in Virginblue making a $30million profit. Pity Management decided to go ahead with VAustralia...and thus put the business not VB mind you, in the red by a cool $160million. Why should we suffer the consequences? We've been working our butts off to do well for our guests and provide them with a service they want to come back for. They tell us its to keep our jobs...bull...its to keep VAustralia going. We were doing just fine. And lets not forget, its not just crew that are being asked to take a hit for VA, its also ground crew and any other poor minion at the bottom rung. You have bled us dry boys, find the funds somewhere else, 77% have said as much!
The union is very conservative when it comes to the negotiation process and when dealing with breaches of the EBA on behalf of its members to ensure they do not affect company profitability in a detrimental manner. They do not want the company fined $30,000 for every breach of the EBA or have the company lose paying passengers as a result of a strike. They want the company to succeed financially as this will ensure that all of our jobs are protected
That said, at the end of the day - and i do hope VB Management, who don't usually post on PPRUNE...ten points for making me laugh!...are also reading this - if the current (expired) EBA is successfully cancelled and the company chooses to put in place what was so strongly rejected by 77% of the cabin crew - with or without the cash payments - then they too need some advice from specialists' outside of the company. If 77% of your frontline staff are unhappy, how's that going to be for business? Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the correct answer but, somehow management is still crying poor despite the fact that we actually played a large part in Virginblue making a $30million profit. Pity Management decided to go ahead with VAustralia...and thus put the business not VB mind you, in the red by a cool $160million. Why should we suffer the consequences? We've been working our butts off to do well for our guests and provide them with a service they want to come back for. They tell us its to keep our jobs...bull...its to keep VAustralia going. We were doing just fine. And lets not forget, its not just crew that are being asked to take a hit for VA, its also ground crew and any other poor minion at the bottom rung. You have bled us dry boys, find the funds somewhere else, 77% have said as much!
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CBR_1 maybe you should become a delegate and put your mouth where your money is.
The FAAA delegates are representing you as volunteers. They are trying to get everyone's support in an "office" where some of the employees couldn't care less what happens in the EBA. They only care about the next weekend off, their next pay check, when do we sign off and what time is pick up. They want it all handed to them on a platter because thats the way they are. Don't you get why they asked you which way to vote. They didn't read the document and are relying on others to make a decision for them. Its still like high school.
There is no point bagging the union letting you down when it is your so called "friends" out online that dont have your back. The FAAA will be there as your representative when you need them, where will your "friends" be?
In the mean time why don't you approach the FAAA about being more helpful out online with recruiting and informing crew. There are plenty of crew doing that now. Once we are all on the same page then with the majority of crew at your back you can take what ever action is legal.
You could even run for FAAA VBA CC Team Leader perhaps your hardline stance will make our managers see the light of day.
The FAAA delegates are representing you as volunteers. They are trying to get everyone's support in an "office" where some of the employees couldn't care less what happens in the EBA. They only care about the next weekend off, their next pay check, when do we sign off and what time is pick up. They want it all handed to them on a platter because thats the way they are. Don't you get why they asked you which way to vote. They didn't read the document and are relying on others to make a decision for them. Its still like high school.
There is no point bagging the union letting you down when it is your so called "friends" out online that dont have your back. The FAAA will be there as your representative when you need them, where will your "friends" be?
In the mean time why don't you approach the FAAA about being more helpful out online with recruiting and informing crew. There are plenty of crew doing that now. Once we are all on the same page then with the majority of crew at your back you can take what ever action is legal.
You could even run for FAAA VBA CC Team Leader perhaps your hardline stance will make our managers see the light of day.
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between a rock and hard place?
CBR_1 thanks for the hard line approach you took at the modern Award case, although I didnt see your name on the transcript
By the way thanks for speaking out and all the lobbying you did for the increase to our overnight allowance; that fight was tough, love, but worth pursuing. At least now part of my income is still up with the cost of living.
I was wondering who attended Fair Work Australia and spoke up for us about the way VB is not bargaining properly - so that was you?
I hope you are going to volunteer to be a witness at the termination court case and speak out as well. How great will it be with hundreds of us up there. Great thanks for organising all of this.
Its such a shame it costs more than $33000 in legal fees to get a fine imposed of $33000 through the courts. Some of us are prepared to run raffles to raise the money we need to pay the legal eagles who would have to run it, could you donate the prizes?
A union representing 1 person in a battle which they know is widespread doesn't ring true. To make a case, we've got to have a case. The spokesperson has to be able to speak out with authority. With only 1 person or a handful backing them, that isn't going to fly.
I hope the current delegates who are volunteers are willing to keep speaking out for us for another year.
By the way thanks for speaking out and all the lobbying you did for the increase to our overnight allowance; that fight was tough, love, but worth pursuing. At least now part of my income is still up with the cost of living.
I was wondering who attended Fair Work Australia and spoke up for us about the way VB is not bargaining properly - so that was you?
I hope you are going to volunteer to be a witness at the termination court case and speak out as well. How great will it be with hundreds of us up there. Great thanks for organising all of this.
Its such a shame it costs more than $33000 in legal fees to get a fine imposed of $33000 through the courts. Some of us are prepared to run raffles to raise the money we need to pay the legal eagles who would have to run it, could you donate the prizes?
A union representing 1 person in a battle which they know is widespread doesn't ring true. To make a case, we've got to have a case. The spokesperson has to be able to speak out with authority. With only 1 person or a handful backing them, that isn't going to fly.
I hope the current delegates who are volunteers are willing to keep speaking out for us for another year.
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Maybe the FAAA really are hardworking volunteers who are interested in maintaining fair work conditions for crew. Maybe they are challenged by a lack of interest in their work.
And maybe those crew who don't choose to be members are not freeloading selfish individuals who don't give a damn. Maybe they are people who for their own reasons and using their own brains have decided that FAAA representation is not for them.
CBR has a valid point, even if it's not one you want to hear. Calling anyone outside your membership "the enemy" and putting them down as apathetic and freeloading does not make your association attractive to new members.
And maybe those crew who don't choose to be members are not freeloading selfish individuals who don't give a damn. Maybe they are people who for their own reasons and using their own brains have decided that FAAA representation is not for them.
CBR has a valid point, even if it's not one you want to hear. Calling anyone outside your membership "the enemy" and putting them down as apathetic and freeloading does not make your association attractive to new members.
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youn missed my point
Talk about shooting the messenger! Just to clarify...
I am out there encouraging others to get on board every chance i get, and have been for years, my "friends" out on line up until recently have asked me to show them, or tell them what the union is doing for them? Because for so long they saw no action. You can sling it at me if you like, but for many years prior to recent times i.e. the past 6 months or so, we saw and heard very little from the union. I came to roadshows on my days off, i asked the tough questions, i can assure you i have been, and am continuing to be pro-active. So please don't suggest i get up off my butt and do something, i am.
and in response to your very witty post shoppingcart (and i say that sincerely, nicely written!)
No, i wasn't there in person, but that's what my union fees pay for. The FAAA is meant to do those things on it's members behalf. I shouldn't be made to feel guilty for not doing it myself, I have employed the FAAA for that purpose. Isn't that the point of membership?
being more helpful out online with recruiting and informing crew. There are plenty of crew doing that now. Once we are all on the same page then with the majority of crew at your back you can take what ever action is legal.
and in response to your very witty post shoppingcart (and i say that sincerely, nicely written!)
although I didnt see your name on the transcript
By the way thanks for speaking out and all the lobbying you did for the increase to our overnight allowance; that fight was tough, love, but worth pursuing. At least now part of my income is still up with the cost of living.
I was wondering who attended Fair Work Australia and spoke up for us about the way VB is not bargaining properly - so that was you?
By the way thanks for speaking out and all the lobbying you did for the increase to our overnight allowance; that fight was tough, love, but worth pursuing. At least now part of my income is still up with the cost of living.
I was wondering who attended Fair Work Australia and spoke up for us about the way VB is not bargaining properly - so that was you?
Last edited by CBR_1; 4th Sep 2009 at 00:50.
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Places everyone, and .... action!
There has been action
pay increases fought for while waiting for the company to research (cough) Crap 371 and bring to us the greek god of systems Kronos, my hero.
attemps to rekindle negotiations while the company locked them out of their private discussions with the non union reps
a recent increase to allowances
A union is the sum of its parts - a few voices, even those of the union leaders wont be believable enough. We will need a whole crowd to move the opinions of those who will be deciding our fate. To be able to stop the termination, the union leaders will have had to have done everything legally correct. This behind the scenes action shouldnt be seen as lacking.
Even if you dont think representation is for you, you might not have realised that the peaceful protest which has given you the hours and pay you have now has been going on behind the scenes on your behalf all along. For action to occur, we cant be part of the backstage crew. We all have to play a role. Even if it means shelling out some of our hard earned dollars at the box office to make an impact.
Lets get the right message out there, turn things around to those who maybe dont understand what action involves; a whole crowd of people who will all benefit by turning our 77% vote to a sea of faces in front of the vote.
pay increases fought for while waiting for the company to research (cough) Crap 371 and bring to us the greek god of systems Kronos, my hero.
attemps to rekindle negotiations while the company locked them out of their private discussions with the non union reps
a recent increase to allowances
A union is the sum of its parts - a few voices, even those of the union leaders wont be believable enough. We will need a whole crowd to move the opinions of those who will be deciding our fate. To be able to stop the termination, the union leaders will have had to have done everything legally correct. This behind the scenes action shouldnt be seen as lacking.
Even if you dont think representation is for you, you might not have realised that the peaceful protest which has given you the hours and pay you have now has been going on behind the scenes on your behalf all along. For action to occur, we cant be part of the backstage crew. We all have to play a role. Even if it means shelling out some of our hard earned dollars at the box office to make an impact.
Lets get the right message out there, turn things around to those who maybe dont understand what action involves; a whole crowd of people who will all benefit by turning our 77% vote to a sea of faces in front of the vote.
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To argue that the FAAA can't do much because it doesn't have enough members makes me wonder what my fees are paying for?
And maybe those crew who don't choose to be members are not freeloading selfish individuals who don't give a damn. Maybe they are people who for their own reasons and using their own brains have decided that FAAA representation is not for them.
The EBA vote may have been the only chance for the group without a bargaining representative to voice their opinion about the proposed working conditions as based on the company's policy of listening to crew and using the skewed results from the closed-ended questions in the post-voting surveys to make decisions, they gave us what we wanted the third time round!
Last edited by vb_girl; 7th Sep 2009 at 13:04.
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What's in for us?
My apologies as my last post did not go through so I’m a little disappointed I’ve had to retype it
Now I must admit I agree with Peg, the union has never done me any favours in times of need, infact backtracked and told me they did not make such statements or recommendations.
Nonetheless, I joined the union as it provides a voice for crew and an “insurance” for my job should crew ever need to strike which may well happen considering the new Award presented from the “Award Modernisation” process.
I have also attempted on many occasions to be a voice for crew to dispute extra duties imposed on us which may be considered illegal. It is unfortunate that crew do continue to be afraid of management and disciplinary action and thus continue to accept 11 or 12 hour duties imposed.
Remember back to our initials/EP days where we were told 80% was pass mark (as per CASA regs) but even when we passed (say 85% for example) we were told the company expected over 90% and demanded a “chat” with crew to determine the cause of such “dismal performance” in their eyes.
This is one silly example of the company making us out to feel bad for trying our best. They have continued, with success to adjust crew to doing long hours. A slow transgression results in crew getting used to such duties and the company making an easy transition for themselves to a crappy EBA/ Agreement.
Let’s not forget back in 2007 when Virgin budgeted for an expected loss of $200 million per year for V Australia. It’s only $160 million posted now and they expect to save $5 million on a new EBA for Virgin Blue Cabin Crew. They are already doing better than expected. Crew shouldn’t be accepting the “CRY POOR” from management. Let’s not even mention the share offer to management back in June!
What about our Christmas present for 2008? A Link on the internet to a music clip! Thanks for comin!
Hmmmm wonder what we'll get for 2009, maybe an email from management saying everybody has agreed to forgo presents for this year as we will donate $10,000 to x charity. Ahhhh....yes cynical I am.
Now I must admit I agree with Peg, the union has never done me any favours in times of need, infact backtracked and told me they did not make such statements or recommendations.
Nonetheless, I joined the union as it provides a voice for crew and an “insurance” for my job should crew ever need to strike which may well happen considering the new Award presented from the “Award Modernisation” process.
I have also attempted on many occasions to be a voice for crew to dispute extra duties imposed on us which may be considered illegal. It is unfortunate that crew do continue to be afraid of management and disciplinary action and thus continue to accept 11 or 12 hour duties imposed.
Remember back to our initials/EP days where we were told 80% was pass mark (as per CASA regs) but even when we passed (say 85% for example) we were told the company expected over 90% and demanded a “chat” with crew to determine the cause of such “dismal performance” in their eyes.
This is one silly example of the company making us out to feel bad for trying our best. They have continued, with success to adjust crew to doing long hours. A slow transgression results in crew getting used to such duties and the company making an easy transition for themselves to a crappy EBA/ Agreement.
Let’s not forget back in 2007 when Virgin budgeted for an expected loss of $200 million per year for V Australia. It’s only $160 million posted now and they expect to save $5 million on a new EBA for Virgin Blue Cabin Crew. They are already doing better than expected. Crew shouldn’t be accepting the “CRY POOR” from management. Let’s not even mention the share offer to management back in June!
What about our Christmas present for 2008? A Link on the internet to a music clip! Thanks for comin!
Hmmmm wonder what we'll get for 2009, maybe an email from management saying everybody has agreed to forgo presents for this year as we will donate $10,000 to x charity. Ahhhh....yes cynical I am.
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I have also attempted on many occasions to be a voice for crew to dispute extra duties imposed on us which may be considered illegal. It is unfortunate that crew do continue to be afraid of management and disciplinary action and thus continue to accept 11 or 12 hour duties imposed.
The BOC pairings manage to squeeze into the fatigue assessment calculation at sign on but at sign off, most crew are way off the chart due to losing a whole night of sleep and not having had enough sleep in the previous 48 hrs.
There are some crew who manage to sleep when they get into PER at night and then again before the BOC flight. However there are many crew who go without sleep or have to resort to using sleeping aids such as Stillnox, Temazapam and Restavit to get some sleep before these flights.
Why are crew too scared to submit a fatigue report or utilise hotel rest at Melbourne airport after operating these BOC flights even when they've had less than 4 hrs sleep in the past 24 hrs at sign off?
They're afraid of the consequences
"If you request confidentiality, your DM will not be notified"
I have three points to make in response:
1) The DMs would clearly be able to put two and two together if they looked at your roster.
2) In principle, the concept negates the need for DMs in the first place (assuming they still believe their own spin that the DMs exist as a first port of call for improving the workplace and developing yourself)
3) Not one cent should be compromised until they sack the lot of them, and run the department in a financially sensible and lean manner.
In response to yesterdays argument about percentage of membership:
1) 50-60% of crew taking protected industrial action is just as good as a higher percentage.
2) The union is doing it self NO favours bleating on about how they only represent 50-60%, and refusing to take a hard line approach with the company. I'm sick of it - no more excuses! Be happy with what you got - and maybe if you show your worth through some hard lined tactics, you will again be relevant.
I am sick of hearing comments like 'who represented you at the AIRC?' etc - of course its the bloody union!! Don't expect a back pat for doing just half your job?!
I have three points to make in response:
1) The DMs would clearly be able to put two and two together if they looked at your roster.
2) In principle, the concept negates the need for DMs in the first place (assuming they still believe their own spin that the DMs exist as a first port of call for improving the workplace and developing yourself)
3) Not one cent should be compromised until they sack the lot of them, and run the department in a financially sensible and lean manner.
In response to yesterdays argument about percentage of membership:
1) 50-60% of crew taking protected industrial action is just as good as a higher percentage.
2) The union is doing it self NO favours bleating on about how they only represent 50-60%, and refusing to take a hard line approach with the company. I'm sick of it - no more excuses! Be happy with what you got - and maybe if you show your worth through some hard lined tactics, you will again be relevant.
I am sick of hearing comments like 'who represented you at the AIRC?' etc - of course its the bloody union!! Don't expect a back pat for doing just half your job?!
how about enforcing fines against the company - sure it costs money - but it shows the company the union is not the lethargic pushover it appears to be.
Jeez - really - it does NOT take almost 5 years to negotiate a pay deal unless something is seriously wrong!! What a disgrace!
maybe follow that up with protected industrial action - a few bouts of safety related duties only (the planes still fly!) but theres none of that famous virgin blue service.
How bout even going so far as asking the membership what actions they would be willing to participate in?
I'm not talking about a strike, so do not suggest that my ideas would bankrupt the company.
How bout a change in attitude as well - quit all this underdog crap. GREAT the FAAA went in to bat at the commission - well done - now finish the job!
The union is its membership - and I respect that unless the membership makes a move, the union as a collective can't. If the union is lethargic, its because its membership is lethargic. HOWEVER membership fees are being paid so that some sort of co-ordination exists at the top end, and I would argue that this 'top end' has become somewhat disjointed from the membership it represents.
I would love to hear a solid and realistic argument as to why some hard line action can not happen? And spare me the bleeding hearts bs about percentages - if 50-60% of the crew are taking protected action and only doing safety duties then surely the remaining percent face an impossible task getting a service done. WHO KNOWS!? Maybe it will even spur some of those potential FEE PAYING members that we so fondly refer to as 'freeloaders' to consider joining an organisation doing something tangible and visible to improve the situation.
Just to clarify, I am as pro-union as they come, I just hate to see the FAAA at their own funeral plot with shovels and their own home brewed 'punch'.
Isolating its biggest supporters, and feigning deafness when the cries for action dictate a forward direction is not the way to go.
On a side note - in further response to vbgirls post above:
Of course crew are afraid - they are answerable to a bunch of unqualified clowns (DMs) who don't even have the tact to keep their personal opinions on crew going fatigued to themselves. The personal (possibly tirets induced) spray I heard from one BNE DM about a crew going fatigued (personal comments included), was nothing short of disgraceful! Of course he has a job still - and the sad thing is, most of you will be able to guess who it is without me even mentioning the initials.
A week later I mentioned what happened and what was said in CRM, and I was shot down by the facilitator (a pilot I once had a great deal of respect for) as a liar, despite many witnesses present.
Jeez - really - it does NOT take almost 5 years to negotiate a pay deal unless something is seriously wrong!! What a disgrace!
maybe follow that up with protected industrial action - a few bouts of safety related duties only (the planes still fly!) but theres none of that famous virgin blue service.
How bout even going so far as asking the membership what actions they would be willing to participate in?
I'm not talking about a strike, so do not suggest that my ideas would bankrupt the company.
How bout a change in attitude as well - quit all this underdog crap. GREAT the FAAA went in to bat at the commission - well done - now finish the job!
The union is its membership - and I respect that unless the membership makes a move, the union as a collective can't. If the union is lethargic, its because its membership is lethargic. HOWEVER membership fees are being paid so that some sort of co-ordination exists at the top end, and I would argue that this 'top end' has become somewhat disjointed from the membership it represents.
I would love to hear a solid and realistic argument as to why some hard line action can not happen? And spare me the bleeding hearts bs about percentages - if 50-60% of the crew are taking protected action and only doing safety duties then surely the remaining percent face an impossible task getting a service done. WHO KNOWS!? Maybe it will even spur some of those potential FEE PAYING members that we so fondly refer to as 'freeloaders' to consider joining an organisation doing something tangible and visible to improve the situation.
Just to clarify, I am as pro-union as they come, I just hate to see the FAAA at their own funeral plot with shovels and their own home brewed 'punch'.
Isolating its biggest supporters, and feigning deafness when the cries for action dictate a forward direction is not the way to go.
On a side note - in further response to vbgirls post above:
Of course crew are afraid - they are answerable to a bunch of unqualified clowns (DMs) who don't even have the tact to keep their personal opinions on crew going fatigued to themselves. The personal (possibly tirets induced) spray I heard from one BNE DM about a crew going fatigued (personal comments included), was nothing short of disgraceful! Of course he has a job still - and the sad thing is, most of you will be able to guess who it is without me even mentioning the initials.
A week later I mentioned what happened and what was said in CRM, and I was shot down by the facilitator (a pilot I once had a great deal of respect for) as a liar, despite many witnesses present.
Last edited by ozangel; 8th Sep 2009 at 08:03.
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thanks for sharing
glad it didnt take the union 5 years to get me a better pay deal!
thanks to union top end action - I got a 9% increase for all the new (daily) initiatives while management experts were putting a bandaid on all the systems that couldn't run the new initiatives.
The top end didnt want to even hint industrial action because they wanted us to be able to jump over the Evil Work Act - workchoices. Apparently no threat of protected action left the door open to vary the current agreement, but in July it was slammed shut when the company applied to exterminate it.
Lots of unions are being reported in the media lately about losing their legal battles and being turfed out because they haven't got all their ducks in a row. But not ours, no disgrace or bad press there.
Glad the union had my back, my mortgage and kept my union fees down by not having to pay a legal bill which didnt progress anywhere.
No disgrace from where i'm sitting checking my bank statement, only well thought through business sense, possibly thought through in the other part of their job.
thanks to union top end action - I got a 9% increase for all the new (daily) initiatives while management experts were putting a bandaid on all the systems that couldn't run the new initiatives.
The top end didnt want to even hint industrial action because they wanted us to be able to jump over the Evil Work Act - workchoices. Apparently no threat of protected action left the door open to vary the current agreement, but in July it was slammed shut when the company applied to exterminate it.
Lots of unions are being reported in the media lately about losing their legal battles and being turfed out because they haven't got all their ducks in a row. But not ours, no disgrace or bad press there.
Glad the union had my back, my mortgage and kept my union fees down by not having to pay a legal bill which didnt progress anywhere.
No disgrace from where i'm sitting checking my bank statement, only well thought through business sense, possibly thought through in the other part of their job.
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news
Last weeks EBA meeting didnt go ahead.
FAAA Delegates are meeting with management tomorrow instead.
I hope the deadlock can be broken on the total package otherwise the media might use its magic key and unlock it for everyone to see.
Annual report for 2008-2009 released - so everyone is on a pay freeze huh? Not according to the annual report. Take a look at senior management salary packages for the last recession ridden year (cough)gone by. I hear the pitter patter of back pay a-comin.
FAAA Delegates are meeting with management tomorrow instead.
I hope the deadlock can be broken on the total package otherwise the media might use its magic key and unlock it for everyone to see.
Annual report for 2008-2009 released - so everyone is on a pay freeze huh? Not according to the annual report. Take a look at senior management salary packages for the last recession ridden year (cough)gone by. I hear the pitter patter of back pay a-comin.