Virgin Blue Cabin Crew EBA

[wirgin blew]

Yeah but how much will we lose if they bring in team virgin and give us nothing for ever. They could keep us on the current eba for ever with no pay rises and 135 rostered hours every month till we resign. No overtime. No overnights. Nothing. That would be awesome. I know I am being asked to do more but what other choice is there. We can't keep saying no without consequences at some stage. If it goes to FWA whose to say that VBA won't get what they want anyway which could be worse than this agreement. VB ain't what it used to be thanks to the current style of managent as well as the GFC. New Year new job I think.

[vb_girl]

ozangel - thanks for the calculations. I haven't had a chance to look at the proposal yet but judging from what you've calculated, it still looks like they could do better. Like you said, the AUD has sky-rocketed and Virgin Blue are profiting from this.

This article cofirms what we're all saying:
- Almost a third of VB's operating costs are exposed to the US dollar and it is estimated that a 1 cent increase in the Australian dollar against the greenback equates to a $2.6 million increase in pre-tax earnings for this financial year.
- VB is expected to upgrade their earnings guidance at its annual meeting on November 26th.
- They are forecasting Virgin to post a net profit of $38.5 million this financial year, compared with the airline’s estimates of a break-even result and are tipping the share price to hit 70c a share due to more favourable economic conditions

- Shares in Virgin are around 53c, up from a low of 13.9c in March.
Management seem more than willing to tell us anything to vote through an EBA that locks in further cost-savings. The Australian economy seems to be moving along quite nicely and analysts are tipping another interest rate rise when the RBA meets next Tuesday. This invariably means things are looking much better than when the second last EBA was put to vote.

What does this mean for us? Well, don't be too quick when deciding to vote on a sub-standard agreement. As already stated, the FAAA are 'satisfied' with this draft but they HAVE to be satisfied as FWA directed the company to bargain with the FAAA and crew but only on a few key points that were brought forward in an application made by the FAAA. Unfortunately, FWA did not direct the company to bargain on the whole agreement and who knows what they will decide if another one gets voted down?

[ozangel]

wirgin, they CAN NOT keep you on the current EBA forever - that is nonsense! Don't be so hysterical.

Don't be afraid of letting it go to Fair Work Australia - by their own system, you CAN NOT be more 'worse off' with a new agreement.

So, even FWA wouldn't expose you to a pay cut like this EBA offers.

There has been some pathetic scare mongering going about - don't believe it. If they take 4 years to come up with yet another substandard EBA, how on earth do you think they could organise another work group.

Just look at the job they did of setting up the Sydney base - a disaster! And what about a base in that little hotspot Perth - too hard basket.

Infact, this is a management so incompetent, they can't work out how they could have dual OOL/BNE basings even with such a huge number of crew living on the coast.

Just think of the cash they could actually save (at the same time improving morale) by getting a few of these things right, and sacking a few managers while they're at it.

[The Bullwinkle]

New Year new job I think.

If that's what you're thinking, then at least have the decency to vote NO for the sake of your colleagues who will be staying at Virgin Blue!

[wirgin blew]

ozangel - worse off? Is that worse off than the current EBA or worse of than the modern award? There is a big difference between the two. You have obviously researched it more than I have so please post the information that you have found so that I and others can read. In the mean time the jury is still out whilst the days tick towards a vote.

A substandard pay rise or no pay rise at all? Who is winning here? VBA have saved millions by letting us all fight amongst one another about what we are prepared to do or not do over an EBA. The majority will not strike, hell they wont even complain to the FAAA, Workplace Ombudsman, or FWA. They sit around the back galley crying about things they aren't prepared to do anything about.

Yes I am hysterical its just because everyone wants it all but they aren't prepared to fight for it. They have been given it all from the day they were born and if they don't get what they go off to their rooms and cry about it instead of standing up for themselves.

Voting no for a fourth time will prove nothing other than we are a bunch of whingers unless ppruners and others are prepared to fight for what you want.

I don't want to leave but I don't want to work with people who wont speak up or stand up for themselves either.

Rant over.

PS Bullwinkle your lot rolled over so don't come in here giving us advice. Last time that happened we voted down CAP371 so your folk could vote it in instead. Leave it for us hosties to fight it out this time.

[The Bullwinkle]

Leave it for us hosties to fight it out this time

I hope you do!

[wirgin blew]

I am processing it all and doing research for myself and sharing my feelings of frustration.

Modern award for cabin crew here : http://www.airc.gov.au/awardmod/awards/cabin_crew.pdf

Search for the no disadvantage test refers to the new "better off overall test" which compares agreements to the modern award.

A yes vote we will get what we have on the table. A no vote and we could at worst be on the modern award.

Part of my processing is working out what will be better for me. The eba on the table is better in most areas than the modern award. Especially the 156 hours in a calendar month before overtime. The displacement at any time. The 90 min sign on. Etc.

Do your own research people. Fair Work Australia has a great website.

[ozangel]

Wirgin - the award is NOT an alternative for Virgin Blue! Statements like that are just pure scaremongering - i'm hoping your not pushing someone elses wheelbarrow in an attempt to spook the cows into jumping off the cliff.

If the company were to adopt anything like the award, half the crew would pack up and leave and the other half would not be turning up to work in protest. The company know this.

You are not paid the award now either - for the very same reason. Don't you think that if the company saw this as an option, they would have taken it up years ago? In truth, Virgin Blue started off on something pretty close to it, and the crew who fought before you certainly didn't get the conditions cabin crew have today by whining and moaning about others who whine and moan - and taking 4 days to process the fact that there is a cabin crew award that is worse than what's on offer?!?

Accept this and your wage is set to decrease by OVER 10% for the work you do.

What increases in workload have occured?
1) Live2Air - extra PAs, constant troubleshooting, and dealing with extra complaints.
2) Premium Economy - You now work for a 2 class airline, that demands a higher level of service from you, increased skill set, etc.
3) Embraers - You now work on multiple aircraft types, commanding of you extra study, extra skills, and increased flexibility.
4) Wet Lease - international flying, with international paperwork, and international passengers.
5) Reduction to 4 crew - theres a ridiculously huge increase in workload that was never compensated for.

Tell em they're dreamin'.

[shoppingcart]

Don't you think that if the company saw this as an option, they would have taken it up years ago?

OzAngel, its only just begun.
Well, it starts on 1 January next year.
We take the bargain on offer or we try for another bargain.
This years product is compared to Australian wages and hours.
Next years product is compared to Asian wages and hours. After all, Mr Keating wanted us to be globally competitive on labour.
What a shame Fair Work Australia put all that effort into a great web design and didnt spend any money on training the people making the decisions about fatigue and hours of work.

[flight04]

Vb Cc Syd Recruitment

Well virgin are now recruiting again for CC SYD base.

Dose this mean they think the next vote will be a YES vote??????

[vb_girl]

2 crew complement on E170!

Has anyone heard about the reduction of the crew complement to 2 cabin crew on the E-Jet 170?

Apparently, they are in the process of editing the training videos and new procedures. This will be yet another increase in workload and productivity that they are planning but not telling us about. If there is no truth to this rumour, then I can't see why a clause that mandates minimum crew complements on each aircraft type can't be included in the current proposal. However, I am certain the company would be hesitant and talk their way around it.

I am not sure what the exact process is if this EBA gets rejected and VBA continues with its application to terminate our current agreement, but it definitely requires further investigation as the rumours that we will be put straight onto a less than favourable award sound incorrect.

Consider some of the reasons VB profits were down last year (taken from the company's own Annual Report by a friend of mine):
- 41% increase in marketing costs due to the launch of V Australia (costs shouldn't be as high for the 2010 financial year)
- 27% increase in fuel costs (which is currently being alleviated by the strong AUD and drop in oil prices)
- Labour and staff related costs increased only 11% to $595 million compared to a 19.3% increase in productivity (productivity is forecast to increase further this financial year, with several EBAs in negotiation for pit crew, ground crew and cabin crew)
- Despite intense competition in the market, there was a 14.1% capacity and yield was only down by 2.4% compared to the previous year
- Cost saving initiatives introduced throughout the year saved $90 million dollars and is set to achieve a further $150 million dollars in savings next year
- Cash flows from operating activities were $101 million, compared to $294 million in the prior year, reflecting the decline in yields and the start up costs associated with V Australia.
- The share price is up 40% since 30 June 2009.

And the icing on the cake after all the talk about the abuse in the EBA roadshows, General Manager of People, Mr R Tanner's total salary package was worth $551,000 for 2009 (up from $355,00 in 2008).

His salary consisted of:
- $275,00 in cash salary and fees
- $124,000 Short Term Incentive cash bonuses
- $36,000 in superannuation benefits, compare the $1385 he received in super each fortnight with the amount you see on your payslip
- $69,000 in options
- $47,000 in Medium Term Incentive bonuses
- this figure does not include Long Term Incentive bonuses

We need to look at the bigger picture. Are crew complements going to be reduced? Are our sign-on times going to be reduced from 1 hour across the board? What happens if we vote 'no' again? Are we happy with the package they are offering and does it take inflation into account? Are we happy to deliver yet 'another' productivity increase without adequate compensation? What other cost-saving initiatives does VB have in store for us?

In my mind, it is now very clear why R Tanner was so heated in the EBA roadshows, his Short Term Incentive, Medium Term Incentive and Long Term Incentive bonus targets were under threat as every cost-saving he makes across the people department means more money in his pocket.

It seems this is no longer about achieving cost savings to save Virgin Blue from failing during a recession, it is about achieving cost-savings so that managers and executives can achieve their Incentive bonus tragets and exercise their share options



* Please link this thread on your Facebook accounts to get more of our colleagues reading PPRune and informing themselves about what is happening

[CBR_1]

good points

You make some excellent points VBGirl and ozangel.

In regards to reducing the number of crew on the E170, the company has always said that would be an option they would utilise should they see the need. So given that, i would suggest it isn't rumour and speculation more a question of when? They have made a point of never saying never to this one - we know how that has got them in trouble in the past...anyone? Sydney base....

Long story short in regards to this new EBA is that as the cost of living goes up, our wage is going to be left behind. To have mere 3% pay increases - and let's not forget that is a 3% increase on a 2007 valued wage - rather than 3% or cpi, whichever is greater (as the pilots do) is simply taking the p*ss. And overnight allowances going up $3 each year and all other allowances being fixed...???? What the...?

Any wonder people are talking about looking for a new job come the new year.

I used to love working for virginblue. That was when i believed the rhetoric.

[The Bullwinkle]

It seems this is no longer about achieving cost savings to save Virgin Blue from failing during a recession, it is about achieving cost-savings so that managers and executives can achieve their Incentive bonus targets and exercise their share options

That is what it has always been about!

There was never going to be a single redundancy!

It was purely a scare campaign.

I'm glad people are beginning to see the light!

[shoppingcart]

the long run

The union notices earlier this year said the gains vb were wanting were long term. The recession only set rules what bargainers could ask for this year for example not increase unemployment and not cause companies to go bust by high pay claims.

The roadshow I went to; crew complements came up and the union told us that there was a protection in there, called substantial workplace change-I think it was -where any reduction to crew complements by vb 737 or ejet means we can be compensated for this somehow.

If we tell 'em they're dreamin by voting no, will everyone be prepared to go on strike to get the difference between this offer and what we want?

Unless everyone is prepared to strike then they'll tell us we're dreamin.

Resigning on mass to go to a new job wont scare them into offering more money, we'd have to go way further than posting on pprune forums and take industrial action.

[shoppingcart]

weighing it up before voting

worse off? Is that worse off than the current EBA or worse of than the modern award? There is a big difference between the two. You have obviously researched it more than I have so please post the information that you have found so that I and others can read. In the mean time the jury is still out whilst the days tick towards a vote.

here it is- "the agreement does not, or would not result, on balance, in a reduction in the overall terms and conditions of employment of the employees who are covered by the agreement. The agreement is compared to the relevant general award or an award designated by Fair Work Australia" Approval process | Fair Work Australia

OzAngel from 1 Jan the Award that they use is changing.

right now they use- Consolidated Award

from 1 Jan they use-
Award Modernisation - Airline operations
Modern Award-Aircraft Cabin Crew Award 2010

check-out the hours of work in both of them. Hello AIRC/FWA, we are not machines. The union sees it as:

"The company’s agenda item of greater hours of work resulted in the Association bargaining for protective conditions around working additional hours, along with receiving adequate remuneration for any additional work performed, whether voluntary or involuntary. With the daily limit of 9:45 preserved, a number of protective limits to the hours of work at roster publish stage or through disruption/assignment of duties of APT/RASS/denominated AVL, and the number of cumulative hours a Crew member may be rostered or work, the Association is satisfied that the negotiated outcome under the October Proposal has delivered what is most important to Crew"

I can't see why a clause that mandates minimum crew complements on each aircraft type can't be included in the current proposal

that clause is 1-7-2 "In the event of major workplace changes that are likely to have a significant effect on Cabin Crew members, Virgin Blue will consult with Cabin Crew Members and allow opportunity for representation for the purpose of that consultation, in accordance with the Fair Work Act and Regulations.'

I am not sure what the exact process is if this EBA gets rejected and VBA continues with its application to terminate our current agreement, but it definitely requires further investigation as the rumours that we will be put straight onto a less than favourable award sound incorrect.

found out- 1. it gets heard by FWA 2. in the mean time between the no vote and the termination decision we would have to act as a group of "employees wishing to take industrial action to support their claims" to get what we see as fair in the EBA 3. we don't get paid when we take industrial action 4. FWA decides whether it should be terminated 5. if its terminated then our contract becomes the base workplace instrument and because the workrules in our EBA are no longer there, FWA decides what we work under and we know what hours of work they think are fair.

I going with what the union and VB have decided is fair because I don't trust the system to look out for me.

[virginbluepilot]

Face the facts, this company needs to remain profitable to be successful as a business, when it was you all were paid bonuses or did you forget.
We have started an international airline that will be more profitable with 7 B777's than Virgin Blue would be operating with 55 aircraft.
Virgin Blue has big shoes to fill now that we are on show to the world as a domestic airline of Australia.

To remain competitive it costs money for innovations to stay ahead of our competitors, For all of us to enjoy the fruits of success takes sacrafice and determination to do better and until this prevails your not going to get any better than whats on the table before you...
FWA cant even begin to comprehend the work you do because its text book uni students working in the government that have no real life experience dictating facts and figures and leaving out the human equation.
so if you want certainty vote YES for this or you will be left with no better outcome, no pay rise for almost 3 to 4 years straight and continue to be rostered max hours with several early sign on's and 11.30 days!

and you can forget wet lease flying because they will need to make further savings in labour using kiwis instead

If you want to be paid like a doctor than go get an OP 1 or 2 and a study a degree or better yet get a trade you will then have your monday to friday 8-5 and be getting paid x2 times what you get at virgin!!! unfortunatly you will have to suck it up or move on

[CBR_1]

god bless you, virginblue pilot

Face the facts, this company needs to remain profitable to be successful as a business, when it was you all were paid bonuses or did you forget.

no, i didn't forget. It was one profit-share bonus, correct? How long has this company been in business? 9 years you say? so one profit-share bonus, wonderful. How many bonuses have been paid to the heads of the company over the past 9 years? I dare say more than one. Before you argue that their good work got us into/kept us in the black, let me assure you, so did my good work.

We have started an international airline that will be more profitable with 7 B777's than Virgin Blue would be operating with 55 aircraft.

We did not start an international airline, they did. And unless you have a crystal ball that is giving you the answers, how do you know it will be more profitable than virginblue? International airfares may be the cheapest they have ever been, and the aus$ may be great at the moment - thus making an overseas trip more viable for some BUT, unless you have a spare couple of grand up your sleeve for an overseas trip (airfares only and not including children), when times get tough, for most australians, internal holidays become the holiday of choice. That's one of the reasons VB made a profit of $30million in the last financial year, depsite the GFC!

To remain competitive it costs money for innovations to stay ahead of our competitors

Pray tell VBpilot, the innovations you speak of that are costing us money and keeping us ahead of the game? Has the virginblue group recently come up with a cost saving venture the other airlines across the world haven't? I don't get your point here? VB is the king of copying - southwest, jetblue, etc. Please elaborate, educate me.

I agree with you that this may be the best EBA we can hope to get, but that doesn't mean that it is the right one. As you have clearly stated, the people that bargain on the company's side (at least), have no clue about what we (and i include tech crew in that 'we') really do on a daily basis - or better put, what we contend with, on a daily basis.

And, if you are going to make the assumption that we are all a bunch of non-tertiary educated employees',

If you want to be paid like a doctor than go get an OP 1 or 2 and a study a degree or better yet get a trade you will then have your monday to friday 8-5 and be getting paid x2 times what you get at virgin!!! unfortunatly you will have to suck it up or move on

you can go jump! I don't mind pilots "dipping into" our forum and putting forth their opinions - the more sides to see an issue from the better - BUT, to cast an aspersion on our ability/education and suggest we go out and get a real qualification that you assume we don't have is simply ignorant on your behalf. There are plenty of people out there in the world (hey, even in virginblue!) that earn as much as you if not more, that don't have a tertiary education - so who is the fool? I can only hope you do what you do because you love to fly - just like me.
and FYI, the amount it cost you to become a commercial airline pilot and and the amount it costs one to go to uni - for most degrees - is about the same. Ever heard of HECS? The only difference between HECS and your costs to become a pilot is the fact that you had to pay yours prior, rather than after, getting the qualification. Maybe if you spoke to most crew, you would discover they have a degree. It may not be a degree that relates to the job they are currently doing, but it no doubt adds to their presence in the cabin and therefore why shouldn't they question their pay and conditions? And even if they haven't studied at a tertiary level, they work hard in a challenging job. You tech crew bitch about how hard your job is all the time and you are on 4 times as much as we are. The difference is, we don't undermine your grievences, we agree with them. Maybe you should walk a cabin or two in our shoes one day before you tell us to "suck it up or move on".

[ozbiggles]

VBPilot.... are you a VB pilot?
When ever someone posts something to pour fuel on a fire I always check their other posts, I suggest others do it too. Much to say on Cabin crew EBAs but not much else.
Hmmmm.

[ozangel]

CBR_1 - FANTASTIC post... exactly right!!

Good point ozbiggles - its probably a DM upset that a no vote might cost them their morning platter of nibblies while they discuss the real things that make an airline run, like how 'high fives' are up 10% this week, while planning next weeks DM development course on 'Advanced Meddling and Procrastination - skills for micromanagers'.

[The Bullwinkle]

'Advanced Meddling and Procrastination - skills for micromanagers'

Touche'