I am the CPT so you do as i say
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Flying 22 years?
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You need to update your details.....
Mayby Monkey its a company thing.....
NASA used to called CRM "the loop" be it the cockpit loop or crew loop...and to the best of my knowledge its been in existence since WW2 and was used in a military context by heavy bomber crews.
Down the years its been modified..refined..redefined into an airline environment etc etc and has certainly been part of at least two Legacy Carriers training programmes under the banner of "crew co-operation" for the past 30 years
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Mayby Monkey its a company thing.....
NASA used to called CRM "the loop" be it the cockpit loop or crew loop...and to the best of my knowledge its been in existence since WW2 and was used in a military context by heavy bomber crews.
Down the years its been modified..refined..redefined into an airline environment etc etc and has certainly been part of at least two Legacy Carriers training programmes under the banner of "crew co-operation" for the past 30 years
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Abusing the Sky,
All you need to know is that CRM means:
As rmac stated so succinctly, get yourself an ATPL and a Command and then see how easy it is.
I am not getting at you, just stating that there are whole world full of things which you may not know about, need to know about or even have dreamed of, which impact directly on the FC before the CC and that even though you may think that someone is being unfair, un cooperative or even ignorant, you can rest assured that there are a host of very good reasons for someone operating an aircraft in the way that they do.
All you need to know is that CRM means:
Captain's Right Mate
I am not getting at you, just stating that there are whole world full of things which you may not know about, need to know about or even have dreamed of, which impact directly on the FC before the CC and that even though you may think that someone is being unfair, un cooperative or even ignorant, you can rest assured that there are a host of very good reasons for someone operating an aircraft in the way that they do.
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As the FSM, there is no question about your direct experience regarding FC versus CC responsibilities, and the importance of the whole team in terms of maintaining safe flight operations, especially when conditions go sideways. This incident is one which helps puts the whole FC/CC relationship in perspective.
Safety Recommendations
4.15 Training exercises for pilots and cabin crew should be introduced to improve co-ordination between technical and cabin crews in response to an emergency (Made 30 March 1990).
4.15 Training exercises for pilots and cabin crew should be introduced to improve co-ordination between technical and cabin crews in response to an emergency (Made 30 March 1990).
Tough situation to be in. The loss of life was tragic. The only saving grave with these incidents is that the aviation industry learns and makes changes which improves safety for future flights.
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Impressed with all the replies and took my pen and paper and started taking some notes...
Guys, i have no problem with having a boss. In this case, my boss is the CPT. I look up to my CPT and respect his/her title and job cause i know it took a long damn time to get there (for those of you advising me to become one to taste the power, sorry, i am far too weak, pretty confortable with being a hostie, not being locked up in the f/d for hours on end, sorry, it's just not me). I can even accept that, according to some, he is GOD in that a/c. What he says, goes. However, surely that doesn't mean i have to accept being treated like something he stepped in?!....
To be honest, i'm the one who's humble, smiles, says "yes sir no sir" and is more than happy to comply.
But as i said before, imagine the worst case scenario: he/she has a bad day, woke up on the wrong side of the bed, his/hers boiler broke down so he/she had to have a cold shower, starts shouting at you. Then he/she starts calling you names cause you dared to move the pen from here to there... And this happens again in about 1 week when you're rostered to fly together again... And so on and so forth. Then what do you do? That's what i am trying to find out.
Your posts are very much appreciated, thank you all
Guys, i have no problem with having a boss. In this case, my boss is the CPT. I look up to my CPT and respect his/her title and job cause i know it took a long damn time to get there (for those of you advising me to become one to taste the power, sorry, i am far too weak, pretty confortable with being a hostie, not being locked up in the f/d for hours on end, sorry, it's just not me). I can even accept that, according to some, he is GOD in that a/c. What he says, goes. However, surely that doesn't mean i have to accept being treated like something he stepped in?!....
To be honest, i'm the one who's humble, smiles, says "yes sir no sir" and is more than happy to comply.
But as i said before, imagine the worst case scenario: he/she has a bad day, woke up on the wrong side of the bed, his/hers boiler broke down so he/she had to have a cold shower, starts shouting at you. Then he/she starts calling you names cause you dared to move the pen from here to there... And this happens again in about 1 week when you're rostered to fly together again... And so on and so forth. Then what do you do? That's what i am trying to find out.
Your posts are very much appreciated, thank you all
Absuing..
Thanks for coming back. OK, I must admit what you describe doesn't sound right or reasonable. Do you know if he/she behaves consistently in a similar fashion with other crewmembers on other flights? Has he/she always behaved like this or has his/her behaviour changed of late? If you are sure the behaviour is consistent, it happens frequently and that it is detrimental to the operation of the aircraft then IMHO you are going to have to talk to one of your managers about it ( Standing by for incoming from some of my Flight Deck colleagues).
My opening line would probably be "I don't know if it's just me, but I'm not getting on very well with one of our Captains", and take it from there. Be very careful about what you say and personally I wouldn't even give the Captain's name until/unless asked. Above all be factual, do not use hearsay (e.g. "she told me that the Captain told her" ) or express too much in the way of personal opinion ( e.g." I think he/she is a *****") just describe what was said to you and events you personally witnessed. Then let your manager suggest a course of action.
Do also bear in mind this Captain may have personal issues that may be effecting their behaviour so don't rush to judgement - you never know what lies beneath.
Thanks for coming back. OK, I must admit what you describe doesn't sound right or reasonable. Do you know if he/she behaves consistently in a similar fashion with other crewmembers on other flights? Has he/she always behaved like this or has his/her behaviour changed of late? If you are sure the behaviour is consistent, it happens frequently and that it is detrimental to the operation of the aircraft then IMHO you are going to have to talk to one of your managers about it ( Standing by for incoming from some of my Flight Deck colleagues).
My opening line would probably be "I don't know if it's just me, but I'm not getting on very well with one of our Captains", and take it from there. Be very careful about what you say and personally I wouldn't even give the Captain's name until/unless asked. Above all be factual, do not use hearsay (e.g. "she told me that the Captain told her" ) or express too much in the way of personal opinion ( e.g." I think he/she is a *****") just describe what was said to you and events you personally witnessed. Then let your manager suggest a course of action.
Do also bear in mind this Captain may have personal issues that may be effecting their behaviour so don't rush to judgement - you never know what lies beneath.
Last edited by wiggy; 5th May 2008 at 16:17.
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Very good post Wiggy. Everyone has good and bad days be it a C4 or a Capt. Victimisation is never a good thing being six miles over our lovely planet or in the crew room.
That said, the skipper, once the doors are closed, is the BOSS. More so even than the CEO of the airline. He/She calls the shots - period, UNLESS its unsafe to follow their orders.
CRM - yes, but a democracy it isn't.
That said, the skipper, once the doors are closed, is the BOSS. More so even than the CEO of the airline. He/She calls the shots - period, UNLESS its unsafe to follow their orders.
CRM - yes, but a democracy it isn't.
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ATS
To follow up on wiggy's comments, a few thoughts.
As a general rule, it seems to me that the ideal course of action would be to bring up the subject directly with the Captain. Assuming he/she isn't of the "Captain Bligh" school of management, he/she may be open to a discussion if it's approached properly and at the right time. I think going to the Managers first, if you haven't tried to sort things with the Captain first, has some risk of escalating the situation.
There may be a time to request a minute of the Captain's time, especially if its adversely affecting the performance of the CC. In order to have this discussion it would be preferable to have it away from the flightdeck so he/she isn't preoccupied with flight operations and it's a private discussion.
Ideally, the discussion would be respectful, professional and serious. It would affirm the authority of the captain. It wouldn't be accusatory, otherwise the discussion may end quickly. If would identify the objective of the discussion as something along the lines of effective, efficient and harmonious flight operations. On those terms the Captain may be prepared to identify what he/she would like to see from the CC which would ease stress. This dialogue would at least offer the potential of identifying the important issues.
Good luck
* No money back guarantee on this though.
To follow up on wiggy's comments, a few thoughts.
As a general rule, it seems to me that the ideal course of action would be to bring up the subject directly with the Captain. Assuming he/she isn't of the "Captain Bligh" school of management, he/she may be open to a discussion if it's approached properly and at the right time. I think going to the Managers first, if you haven't tried to sort things with the Captain first, has some risk of escalating the situation.
There may be a time to request a minute of the Captain's time, especially if its adversely affecting the performance of the CC. In order to have this discussion it would be preferable to have it away from the flightdeck so he/she isn't preoccupied with flight operations and it's a private discussion.
Ideally, the discussion would be respectful, professional and serious. It would affirm the authority of the captain. It wouldn't be accusatory, otherwise the discussion may end quickly. If would identify the objective of the discussion as something along the lines of effective, efficient and harmonious flight operations. On those terms the Captain may be prepared to identify what he/she would like to see from the CC which would ease stress. This dialogue would at least offer the potential of identifying the important issues.
Good luck
* No money back guarantee on this though.
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I did my 'CRM' course on the VC10 in the RAF too many years ago. It consisted of a 30 second chat from a senior instructor along the lines of:
"Never upset anyone who you think might ever be in a position to buy you a beer, save your life or tiddle in your coffee."
It's worked pretty well for the last 28 years or so.
"Never upset anyone who you think might ever be in a position to buy you a beer, save your life or tiddle in your coffee."
It's worked pretty well for the last 28 years or so.
ZbV
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Unruly and rude PU verbally abuses the CPT
I just wonder what promted the Captain top react the way he did. One could think that PU said something that was offensive. Perhaps it is the PU and that side of the story that needs to be looked into. Rather than calling this thread "I am the CPT so you do as I say", should we perhaps call it the " Unruly and rude PU verbally abuses the CPT" thread?
Agree with that, as Captain I treat everyone with politeness and respect.
It is really, the only way and precludes, 99% of the time my having to even mention my authority.
This attitude is usually reciprocated.
But I spent nineteen years as a Second and First officer so learned the meaning of humility
quite well !
It is really, the only way and precludes, 99% of the time my having to even mention my authority.
This attitude is usually reciprocated.
But I spent nineteen years as a Second and First officer so learned the meaning of humility
quite well !
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the captain is god on the plane and if you cannot abide by what he directs you to do your only other alternatives are to stand yourself down from the sector or report the captain. both options can be dire so make sure you are not in the wrong. by standing yourself down the captain also knows that he, along with you, will be off for a meeting with the chief pilot and cabin manager. this can, sometimes, cause a rethink by the captain. think very very carefully before trying this
the captain is god on the plane and if you cannot abide by what he directs you to do your only other alternatives are to stand yourself down from the sector or report the captain
1. at destination the runway is closed due to an incident with delay indefinite. You are now at minimum diversion fuel. The captain is deperate to get to destination so tells the first officer that we will hang around as the delay should not be too much longer.
2. The senior crew member reports to the captain that the headcount does not match the manifest. The captain says we are going anyway as we need to make the slot or we will go out of hours.
In these cases is the Captain a god? IMHO the most important people on the aircraft are the f/o in case 1 & the senior in case 2. Before anyone asks, both these events have occurred with at least one of the Captains being sacked!
Again IMHO, the problem with Captains tend to be the perception of a Captains role by both crew and the captains themselves.
ZbV
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Captain is not the god or a god.
However what the Captain is responsible for all the crew and their actions onboard the aircraft as well as the safety of the flight. The Captain bears the responsibility for a heavy landing of a first officer, an altitude bust of an first officer. Captain also assumes the responsibility for what go's on in the cabin. Blown slide, people hurt. Who files an ASR and whos details are there in the accident investigation report.
Wether some people like it or not, Captain is in charge and bears the reponsibility. Sometimes being a Captain calls for unpopular desicions. However occasionally these have to be made. I've made em and asked myself many a times, would I have done something differently? A few times in retrospect, yes I could have, but then again a Captain bases decisions on the information available at the time and hindsight, well we all know how easy it is to judge from an armchair.
Again people have bad days and sometimes it is extremely difficult to keep personal feelings in the background.
However what the Captain is responsible for all the crew and their actions onboard the aircraft as well as the safety of the flight. The Captain bears the responsibility for a heavy landing of a first officer, an altitude bust of an first officer. Captain also assumes the responsibility for what go's on in the cabin. Blown slide, people hurt. Who files an ASR and whos details are there in the accident investigation report.
Wether some people like it or not, Captain is in charge and bears the reponsibility. Sometimes being a Captain calls for unpopular desicions. However occasionally these have to be made. I've made em and asked myself many a times, would I have done something differently? A few times in retrospect, yes I could have, but then again a Captain bases decisions on the information available at the time and hindsight, well we all know how easy it is to judge from an armchair.
Again people have bad days and sometimes it is extremely difficult to keep personal feelings in the background.
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I would like to ask the flight crew out there.
How would you approach a captain who has contravened safety and security regulations laid out by both the CAA and FAA?
Inviting a young lady up to the flight deck to visit on a flight out to the states, after the cabin manager objects he tells the cabin manager that he is the captain and he will do what he likes on his aircraft. And that he can make things difficult for the cabin manager if he reports it to the company.
The F/O keeps his head down and gob shut!
What would you do?
How would you approach a captain who has contravened safety and security regulations laid out by both the CAA and FAA?
Inviting a young lady up to the flight deck to visit on a flight out to the states, after the cabin manager objects he tells the cabin manager that he is the captain and he will do what he likes on his aircraft. And that he can make things difficult for the cabin manager if he reports it to the company.
The F/O keeps his head down and gob shut!
What would you do?
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obnoxious captain
unfortunately there are many of them outhere, remenber you don't have to like the guy you just have to work with him, the important thing to remenber is that your ticket is on the line as well , so in some case you have to speak up and be a little more assertive , be sure that you don't cross the border.
I always include in my brief with new FO's that I am open to communication and positive criticizing, after all we are all humans and make mistakes.
cheers
I always include in my brief with new FO's that I am open to communication and positive criticizing, after all we are all humans and make mistakes.
cheers
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We had two captains fired for that, this goes beyond stupidity, due to TSa regs, the FO should have say NO , Captain comes with privileges and responsability, how about if a pax would record it and disclose that to the media, this was the case here in the states.
cheers
jc
cheers
jc
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Av8rboyz
Hi there,
if this was me as a cabin manager i would report it to the company because a CPT cannot invite a pax up to the flight these days as the door is locked and no-one has access inless its the operating crew members.
If the CPT invites a pax that he fancys a bit of in the flight desk and the Cabin Manager says tries to say no its aganist the rules then the CPT pull out the good old phrase i am the CPT you do what i say. then says to the Cabin Manager if you report this he would make you life hell.
Then this is a threat and should be report to the company because next time he does it you may not be as lucky. That why there is a locked door theses day to prevent unauthorised access.
so next time do not just put your head down and walk away think about all them pax lifes you have oboard plus your crew.
if this was me as a cabin manager i would report it to the company because a CPT cannot invite a pax up to the flight these days as the door is locked and no-one has access inless its the operating crew members.
If the CPT invites a pax that he fancys a bit of in the flight desk and the Cabin Manager says tries to say no its aganist the rules then the CPT pull out the good old phrase i am the CPT you do what i say. then says to the Cabin Manager if you report this he would make you life hell.
Then this is a threat and should be report to the company because next time he does it you may not be as lucky. That why there is a locked door theses day to prevent unauthorised access.
so next time do not just put your head down and walk away think about all them pax lifes you have oboard plus your crew.