Discrimination against a Visa holder in Cabin Crew requirements
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Discrimination against a Visa holder in Cabin Crew requirements
My wife is trying to get into the airlines as cabin crew.
She is an American citizen with a UK visa stamped in her USA passport. She can live/work in this country, and has a NI number. She works for a UK employer currently paying tax and national insurance.
Certain Airlines say that you need the right to live and work in the UK, and have an EU passport. I cannot think why an EU passport is "always" required, as my wife has the same privilages with the visa in her US passport.
Are these airlines discriminating against a UK visa holder?
The answers I keep getting back from the airline in question is, "its a company policy!" however they are all too retarded to actually realise that just because it's a company policy doesn't make it legal. One email responce said you can apply with a visa, and the next said you can't. Another tried to explain to me that the only reason an EU passport is required was to obtain a NI number-they said the only was to obtain an EU number was to get sponsored, which is totally untrue as my wife isn't sponsored and has the NI number. Leads me to think this company has no clue about this type of senario.
I am keen to seek legal advice on the matter, but thought I'd ask here first to see if anyone else has had simular problems.
HB
She is an American citizen with a UK visa stamped in her USA passport. She can live/work in this country, and has a NI number. She works for a UK employer currently paying tax and national insurance.
Certain Airlines say that you need the right to live and work in the UK, and have an EU passport. I cannot think why an EU passport is "always" required, as my wife has the same privilages with the visa in her US passport.
Are these airlines discriminating against a UK visa holder?
The answers I keep getting back from the airline in question is, "its a company policy!" however they are all too retarded to actually realise that just because it's a company policy doesn't make it legal. One email responce said you can apply with a visa, and the next said you can't. Another tried to explain to me that the only reason an EU passport is required was to obtain a NI number-they said the only was to obtain an EU number was to get sponsored, which is totally untrue as my wife isn't sponsored and has the NI number. Leads me to think this company has no clue about this type of senario.
I am keen to seek legal advice on the matter, but thought I'd ask here first to see if anyone else has had simular problems.
HB
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Long Haul
One question for you would be what were the destinations on the long haul airline your wife applied to?
If they were flying over say Cuba and had to land would they automatically stamp the crews passports. So would that present a problem for the airline if afterwards she was due to fly to the USA!! With a British/EU passport you can always apply for a second passport so that any stamps in it would not stop entry into any other country.
I hope that makes sense and is only a question, not a reason for her to not get the job, but maybe something to look into!
If they were flying over say Cuba and had to land would they automatically stamp the crews passports. So would that present a problem for the airline if afterwards she was due to fly to the USA!! With a British/EU passport you can always apply for a second passport so that any stamps in it would not stop entry into any other country.
I hope that makes sense and is only a question, not a reason for her to not get the job, but maybe something to look into!
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Hi thanks for the reply-although you may have misread my post. She doens't have a UK/EU passport. She has a USA passport with a UK visa in it.
In any case, these are the questions I've been asking, and no one at this company can give me a reason why a EU passport is required. There seems to be a lot of guessing of various reasons, but nothing concrete, and nothing concrete that doesn't discriminate in my opinion.
HB
In any case, these are the questions I've been asking, and no one at this company can give me a reason why a EU passport is required. There seems to be a lot of guessing of various reasons, but nothing concrete, and nothing concrete that doesn't discriminate in my opinion.
HB
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Hello.
(I ain't expert on anything I state, just opinion, ok?)
Just as I need 'native speaker passport' and English tuition degree for teaching visa to bunch of Asian and Latin American countries.
If it's UK based company and person is holder of passport of country that doesn't require any special visa to travel to, it shouldn't be a problem.
Shouldn't...
Their policy is to get rid off hassle like your wife's case from what I understand.
You know, having right to live and work in the UK doesn't have much to do with 'EU passport' and exercising rights of free movement across Schengen zone. Just to remind, UK and Ireland are not part of it so that they can exercise their own border control and protection (for good reasons).
Another thing is, if she only has right to be in the UK and doesn't have permanent residency or refugee status, she isn't free to live (or work as well) in another EU/EEA country according to Treaty - one would need to check exact details of this.
Having passport that allows for visa waiver style tourist entry doesn't seem desirable to them.
Maybe, part of that requirement is that she actually works in various EU countries. Who knows. I don't know such EU labour laws.
From what I know, non-US cabin crew need C1/D visa on flights to US. That's not exactly illustrative, but shows that being airline crew one works in another countries temporarily as a part of duties. Hence I'd say it's about free movement not just visa waiver (as you experienced on your travels around Europe). C visa is temporary for airline/vessel crew and not work visa.
I dare not to guess which airline, but some bigger ones do have bases outside UK and then if one stays in Germany, France or Spain for prolonger periods ie living there, the 'papers' come into play. So some might want their staff to be flexible should such need arise.
I got EEA1 registration cert in the UK. I can get married and bring my non-EU wife from L America or Asia to UK. She could be completely legal with residence card in here, but if it's marginal or poor country, chances are she'd need Schengen visa to most of Europe and no right to work there.
(I ain't expert on anything I state, just opinion, ok?)
Just as I need 'native speaker passport' and English tuition degree for teaching visa to bunch of Asian and Latin American countries.
If it's UK based company and person is holder of passport of country that doesn't require any special visa to travel to, it shouldn't be a problem.
Shouldn't...
Their policy is to get rid off hassle like your wife's case from what I understand.
You know, having right to live and work in the UK doesn't have much to do with 'EU passport' and exercising rights of free movement across Schengen zone. Just to remind, UK and Ireland are not part of it so that they can exercise their own border control and protection (for good reasons).
Another thing is, if she only has right to be in the UK and doesn't have permanent residency or refugee status, she isn't free to live (or work as well) in another EU/EEA country according to Treaty - one would need to check exact details of this.
Having passport that allows for visa waiver style tourist entry doesn't seem desirable to them.
Maybe, part of that requirement is that she actually works in various EU countries. Who knows. I don't know such EU labour laws.
From what I know, non-US cabin crew need C1/D visa on flights to US. That's not exactly illustrative, but shows that being airline crew one works in another countries temporarily as a part of duties. Hence I'd say it's about free movement not just visa waiver (as you experienced on your travels around Europe). C visa is temporary for airline/vessel crew and not work visa.
I dare not to guess which airline, but some bigger ones do have bases outside UK and then if one stays in Germany, France or Spain for prolonger periods ie living there, the 'papers' come into play. So some might want their staff to be flexible should such need arise.
I got EEA1 registration cert in the UK. I can get married and bring my non-EU wife from L America or Asia to UK. She could be completely legal with residence card in here, but if it's marginal or poor country, chances are she'd need Schengen visa to most of Europe and no right to work there.
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UK Visa
Hey HB
I understand the frustration. I am moving from the US to the UK and joining an airline there from one here (LAX) but i have an EU passport. A friend from Canada who wants to move can get a 4 year ancestry visa as Canada is Commonwealth but that is not enough ...
Does your wife's visa have ANY form of restriction on it - such as valid initially only for 2 or 4 years? Even though married to you - and I guess you are a British citizen - and it will be extended or endorsed at some future time to be "Given Indefinite Leave To Remain In The UK" ?
The airlines are not interested, sadly, in whatever situation seems to guarantee extention or upgrading of the visa later on. It has to be the "Unlimited/Can Do What You Want" variety before getting the job.
Because of so many alternative lifestyles existing amongst airline folk, they are not at all interested whether she is here with her husband or her lesbian partner or off her own bat on a visa gained some other way, Student, current job, whatever. And they won't hire anyone who might have to leave at short notice because a visa for whatever reason runs out or invalidates. Future indicators are not important to them, it's what she can do now.
The Airlines sometimes consider foreign (Non EU) citizens provided that their visa is indefinite and unrestricted in anyway. The nationality of the passport must also be valid for -every- country that the airline flies to without restriction or limitation. At my assessment in the UK there was a young guy with "Indefinite Leave to Remain" but on an Israeli passport... Israel is a special case I guess BUT his anguish and disappointment would also have been easier for him to cope with had he not applied online and checked the box that said UK/EU.. hoping to explain to the airline on arrival for the assessment. I must say the airline I am going to held wonderfully encouraging and "human" interviews and took the time to explain the situation. I know - for a fact - that one or three of the Biggies would have said NO simply because he said YES to a question he should have said NO to. They would - I am sure - have assumed that he did have the right visa but did not have the ideal passport. I am not saying your wife did this, but these days with the airlines you have to dot every i and cross every t and then go back and be sure....
Something else to consider is that crew assessments and what they are looking for are often impossible to understand. It is a total mystery to me, and I have been in this business for 20 years. Sometimes you need to apply to several airlines because what happens at each one will be unlike the next and nothing to do with the previous. I could write a book on my journey through the recruitment halls, and this book would be thick enough to stun an ox.....
It takes alot of perserverence.
I understand the frustration. I am moving from the US to the UK and joining an airline there from one here (LAX) but i have an EU passport. A friend from Canada who wants to move can get a 4 year ancestry visa as Canada is Commonwealth but that is not enough ...
Does your wife's visa have ANY form of restriction on it - such as valid initially only for 2 or 4 years? Even though married to you - and I guess you are a British citizen - and it will be extended or endorsed at some future time to be "Given Indefinite Leave To Remain In The UK" ?
The airlines are not interested, sadly, in whatever situation seems to guarantee extention or upgrading of the visa later on. It has to be the "Unlimited/Can Do What You Want" variety before getting the job.
Because of so many alternative lifestyles existing amongst airline folk, they are not at all interested whether she is here with her husband or her lesbian partner or off her own bat on a visa gained some other way, Student, current job, whatever. And they won't hire anyone who might have to leave at short notice because a visa for whatever reason runs out or invalidates. Future indicators are not important to them, it's what she can do now.
The Airlines sometimes consider foreign (Non EU) citizens provided that their visa is indefinite and unrestricted in anyway. The nationality of the passport must also be valid for -every- country that the airline flies to without restriction or limitation. At my assessment in the UK there was a young guy with "Indefinite Leave to Remain" but on an Israeli passport... Israel is a special case I guess BUT his anguish and disappointment would also have been easier for him to cope with had he not applied online and checked the box that said UK/EU.. hoping to explain to the airline on arrival for the assessment. I must say the airline I am going to held wonderfully encouraging and "human" interviews and took the time to explain the situation. I know - for a fact - that one or three of the Biggies would have said NO simply because he said YES to a question he should have said NO to. They would - I am sure - have assumed that he did have the right visa but did not have the ideal passport. I am not saying your wife did this, but these days with the airlines you have to dot every i and cross every t and then go back and be sure....
Something else to consider is that crew assessments and what they are looking for are often impossible to understand. It is a total mystery to me, and I have been in this business for 20 years. Sometimes you need to apply to several airlines because what happens at each one will be unlike the next and nothing to do with the previous. I could write a book on my journey through the recruitment halls, and this book would be thick enough to stun an ox.....
It takes alot of perserverence.
Last edited by 90027; 24th Feb 2008 at 09:39.
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Thanks for that email.
The problem I've found hard to understand is that this cabin crew contract was for an 11 month contract. It's irrelevant whether they intend to keep the crew longer then that, her visa is valid for 2 years initially and does not expire within the next 11 months.
We could separate and she'd still have a valid visa for +11 months.
I think it's discrimination, and the simple fact that the airline does not give me a straight answer makes me wonder. Again-just because an airline writes that an UK/EU passport is required-DOES NOT MAKE IT LEGAL.......
Too many people are missing the point! Being a company policy does not make it "ok"- why else do companies get sewed?
The problem I've found hard to understand is that this cabin crew contract was for an 11 month contract. It's irrelevant whether they intend to keep the crew longer then that, her visa is valid for 2 years initially and does not expire within the next 11 months.
We could separate and she'd still have a valid visa for +11 months.
I think it's discrimination, and the simple fact that the airline does not give me a straight answer makes me wonder. Again-just because an airline writes that an UK/EU passport is required-DOES NOT MAKE IT LEGAL.......
Too many people are missing the point! Being a company policy does not make it "ok"- why else do companies get sewed?
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Frustration
I don't know about the legalities of all visas. I do know when my American ex-sister-in-law (living here with my brother, US/EU citizen) got divorced her visa-by-marriage expired right away. But that's not the point in the case of BA -- and I am not defending them -- I think they have such a huge workforce it has to be a blanket policy.
My recommendation (and I know you haven't asked for it) is to leave BA alone now until 6 months or whatever it is have gone by - and focus on the others who are recruiting here. And not just for fixed term or seasonal periods either. Previous flying experience is not necessarily the lynchpin to getting in some place else when the season or contract is over so someone leaving BA at the end of their 11 months is not guaranteed to be snapped up by another airline.
Once you are in the business it's hard to quit, and if you loved it it would be almost as devastating not to get your contract renewed as it is to be rejected at the start.
I'm not much help but like I said, tell her to get back on the horse.
90.
My recommendation (and I know you haven't asked for it) is to leave BA alone now until 6 months or whatever it is have gone by - and focus on the others who are recruiting here. And not just for fixed term or seasonal periods either. Previous flying experience is not necessarily the lynchpin to getting in some place else when the season or contract is over so someone leaving BA at the end of their 11 months is not guaranteed to be snapped up by another airline.
Once you are in the business it's hard to quit, and if you loved it it would be almost as devastating not to get your contract renewed as it is to be rejected at the start.
I'm not much help but like I said, tell her to get back on the horse.
90.
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There is some airlines who take on people who do not have this rule as my friend is from austrailia and she told me once all the airline she could work for with out a EU passport and they were easyjet, air newzeland and quantas. As she doesn't have an EU passport. Hope this helps
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i presume the 11 month ww contract you are refering to is the current one on offer by BA,
i think it states in the contract that the employee must have "unrestricted worldwide travel" i don't know all the rules or pretend to but if she did have to land in cuba then the us she'd be up XXXX creek without a paddle.
couldn't she try for dual nationality or a british passport or somethin?
i think it states in the contract that the employee must have "unrestricted worldwide travel" i don't know all the rules or pretend to but if she did have to land in cuba then the us she'd be up XXXX creek without a paddle.
couldn't she try for dual nationality or a british passport or somethin?
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I think the point Hour Builder is making is that the policy appears not be based on legality. It may be convenience for the airline to have all crew with UK/EU passports but he wants to know what would happen if it was challenged. This is a very good question. If other airlines such as Zoom, QF, NZ, BD and VS can have crew on various passports, why can't BA? In effect BA are turning away Aussies, Kiwis, Canadians and South Africans with UK heritage, all people who could really make a contribution to the crew culture.
I've got two Aussie mates, one with UK heritage, one with Greek heritage. The one with Greek hertigage - who has never set foot in Greece - has more rights in the UK than the other one and this includes the right to fly for BA.
I've got two Aussie mates, one with UK heritage, one with Greek heritage. The one with Greek hertigage - who has never set foot in Greece - has more rights in the UK than the other one and this includes the right to fly for BA.
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well not that i'm saying i think it is fair but....
if it is in the nature of the job to have unrestricted worldwide travel then anyone that doesn't isn't elidgable, i know a crew member who had to get a new passport because it had an israeli stamp in it, and if the us don't/aren't willing to reissue if for example a crew member travels to cuba then is that illegal or is it just unfortunate that this mean the crew member would be limiting the operation?
if it is in the nature of the job to have unrestricted worldwide travel then anyone that doesn't isn't elidgable, i know a crew member who had to get a new passport because it had an israeli stamp in it, and if the us don't/aren't willing to reissue if for example a crew member travels to cuba then is that illegal or is it just unfortunate that this mean the crew member would be limiting the operation?
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why is it illegal?
Discriminatory,- undoubtedly, the employer has to treat UK citizens fairly, but just as US immigration can turn away anyone they feel like (and they do! )
AFAIK, they can discriminate as much as they like! She has been given the privelige of a UK VISA. the employer demands a EU passport.
In the same way a car-driving license will be accepted, a Goods or Public Service licence is not.
AFAIK, they can discriminate as much as they like! She has been given the privelige of a UK VISA. the employer demands a EU passport.
In the same way a car-driving license will be accepted, a Goods or Public Service licence is not.
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US Passport
Hi HB
I am not sure this is the reason about your wife passport but i would say that
when we come through customs as crew in some airports its says EU/Passports and we normally come through as a crew 10-11 people. If you wife has a American passport this would mean she would have to go to another Passport control point . And may have to wait which would hold the
crew up on departure or arrival at the airport. The airlines may think this is a problem . I am not saying this is correct but the only thing i can think off
I am not sure this is the reason about your wife passport but i would say that
when we come through customs as crew in some airports its says EU/Passports and we normally come through as a crew 10-11 people. If you wife has a American passport this would mean she would have to go to another Passport control point . And may have to wait which would hold the
crew up on departure or arrival at the airport. The airlines may think this is a problem . I am not saying this is correct but the only thing i can think off
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I think you need to invest in an hour or so with an experienced employment lawyer who will be fully familiar with a scenario such as this.
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Passport requirements
Would anyone know why the treatment is diferent for pilots?
I know many diferent airlines are not bothered by the pilots' passports.
I've even seen ads for pilots vacancies stating visa requirements would be sorted out by the airline.
As I see the issue, airline companies are not legally based when they restrict non- EU/UK cabin crew from working for then, but only discriminating on a offer/demand base.
Please let me know wich kind of passport ou visa allows someone to travel freely worldwide? Not even Beth II is able to do it...
I know many diferent airlines are not bothered by the pilots' passports.
I've even seen ads for pilots vacancies stating visa requirements would be sorted out by the airline.
As I see the issue, airline companies are not legally based when they restrict non- EU/UK cabin crew from working for then, but only discriminating on a offer/demand base.
Please let me know wich kind of passport ou visa allows someone to travel freely worldwide? Not even Beth II is able to do it...
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In countries like USA, if a spouse is on dependent visa, the visa becomes invalid when they divorce. If the employer has to spend on additional visa issues, then they can legally opt not to employ that person. I have seen cases in USA where many companies don't want to hire people on H1B visas as it would entail additional expenditure for them. I guess it might be similar in EU/UK too.