vs_lhr

Isn't it strange the effect using leading caps on every word has. Kind of like reading staccato.

BTW, I thought we got past the name calling. It's so unnecessary, and the mods (quite rightly) don't approve.

I don't doubt that the situation isn't perfect, but there is a bit of a difference between working and waiting - that's the only reason I don't think it's a good example to cite.

thebigcheese

No name calling my friend, just honesty and dissapointment of many cabin crew who are quick to shout how big and brave they are and how they will back the union 110% but as i say.... when push comes to shove .........

01nofun

Hey the big cheese

Someone after my own heart.

VS_LHR does sometime agree but mostly I get the impression of frustation of wanting to fly - but listen honey I am so of your thinking.

I was one of the few that was roster a flight the day of the first strike - ask me to stand for my colleagues - no contest - ask them to stand for me - ?????

TightSlot

thebigcheese is now an ex-cheese and free to surprise and delight people on other forums

01nofun - suggest you be more careful choosing your new best friends

sinala1

I have to disagree, vs_lhr - this is still time that crew are "at work", not on their way home - many crew then have the 'pleasure' of waiting on their way home as well...

vs_lhr

That's a fair point, and assuming the lack of transport is all Virgin's fault, then crew probably do have a good case for "overtime" (although that's not the best word to use in this situation). Consider my mind changed on this point.

I enjoy flying; Hey - I like planes, but I am past the point of having any desire to be crew. Now in my >ahem< later years, it's a bit late for me to learn the finer points of Delsey Dinners.

016FSM

vs lhr, I'm really intrigued! With the amount of time you spend in this forum, do you ever have time to do anything else like work or eat or play??

Every single time I look at the forum, which it is very easy to become addicted to I admit, you have answered or passed comment on someone's comment. No offence intended but it just amazes me!!

I admire your loyalty to the company though, I hope you get paid a decent wage, I'm sure you do a very good job, whatever it is that you do!!

vs_lhr

016FSM,

If you want to know the real secret, it's because I got an iPhone for my birthday. Being able to use the Net on a bus, in the pub or even - dare I say it - in the loo, is both wonderfully liberating and dangerously addictive at the same time. (BTW, those that tell you their mobile phones can surf the Net may not be lying, but you need to try an iPhone to understand how different the experience is...)

Captb747

back2front.... I will clarify the bus situation for you......Unfortunately the is niot an infinite number of buses on the airport and these buses are used for Crew transportation but also for passenger transportation.

The bus company normally allocates X amount of buses for Crew and X amount (and obviously more) for passenger use.

As is the case more often than not, many crews are waiting for the same bus and frustrating as it is, some crews end up waiting ages for the bus. I know exactly how frustrating it is and it probably wont get any better but at least you know why...

Apologies for the thread drift....

Monty Casino

Well I would like to say that it was actually my message posted on Monday that resolved the strike - but I know that is not true! (The boys at Waterside I am sure were not at all happy)

It is interesting to note from an outsiders point of view:

1. VS management claim it as a victory as they say they had enough crews to operate a near normal service (thus implying the strike would have no effect)

2. Brian Boyd in his letter published here claims it is the highest cabin crew basic in the UK (which implies it was the Union's negotiating skills and VS capitulation which brought this deal in)

Thus both sides claim they win! It's just like listening to those by-election candidates who don't win, come 2nd and then claim it was a significant victory. The emperor's new clothes comes to mind.

I am delighted that a strike has been averted because no longer will cabin crew member be placed in confrontation with fellow cabin crew member.

However, I have considerable experience in industrial relations and the VS cabin crew should present themselves to management as a cohesive negotiating force who can collectively bargain on behalf of ALL crew.

016FSM makes the point the point about a split in the FSM/CSS and junior negotiations and I agree. However, who better to put junior crew opinions forward than someone who has been and experienced work as a junior. So, therefore, a VS "Crewforce" group with no external employed reps and who represented ALL cabin crew could effectively negotiate with management.

With no disrepect to Brian Boyd and his colleagues, they are "employees" of the union, they don't stand at 5am waiting on crew buses that don't show up, they don't have to get up at 3am to prep for flights nor do they have to contend with disruptive passengers, tech aircraft, delays downroute and all the other problems that go with working as cabin crew.

Be under no illusion, there should never have needed to be a threat of strike action because what happened clearly states that the Union and the company could not and WOULD NOT reach agreement without having a power struggle and brinkmanship.

A "Crewforce" would negotiate with VS management on different terms. The company relies on the fact that not all crew are union members and so the modus operandi is "divide and conquer" for negotiations to bully a pro-company result. The union full time reps don't give up their salaries when cabin crew go on strike so, as outsiders, they don't have the interest nor worry nor stress as the crew members do so no matter what they say they can never represent the members as passionately or as commitedly as the crew themselves. The company's approach would be different if negotiating DIRECTLY with ALL cabin crew collectively.

If you are a union member, ask yourself this - what exactly does my union subscription buy me? What do I get for my money? (If you are concerned about industrial injury or representation then "Crewforce" can obtain that for you anyway as every legal and quasi legal firm will want to deal with such an internal representative body)

Don't get me wrong I am not anti union per se. I just think that in this case, the union needs to be the cabin crew themselves. There have been a substantial number of comments that people are unhappy. Now is the time to sort this out for once and for all. (The union will say more people should join as they claim it is their victory - hmmmmm?)

May I just say that I have huge respect for all the VS cabin crew who has discussed this matter here and particularly for people such as 016FSM who has clearly demonstrated to us all that not only is she very good at her job, but she is a credit to Virgin Atlantic. On the basis of the discussion, thoughts and opinions expressed here, the clear and concise manner, she has expressed herself - I would offer her a job tomorrow!

Digitalis

Scoobs, 016_FSM and anyone else with influence over crew: don't leave the Union! Unite is the only union empowered to negotiate for Virgin CC. If you leave the Union, you forfeit your right to have a say in any future negotiations and you become a spectator only. You are right to be angry with the Union, but you should focus that anger into getting things changed within the Union itself - starting with Brian Boyd as your chief negotiator, and rapidly followed by the fractious, infighting, unfocussed and disloyal committee of your colleagues who did so much to undermine the Union, the Crew and the Company.

As for separate negotiations for CSSs and FSMs, that requires the Company to accept that they are a separate working group with different representative needs. When the Company went through the process that resulted in the CC becoming unionised, that point was raised and rejected. I'm not sure how it'd go down now, but you need to look carefully into the legalities and ramifications. It may be that union representation would not have been possible had the CC not been treated as a single workgroup, and it may be that that hasn't changed.

01noFun and thebigcheese your Union lost because it was disorganised, unfocussed and failed to communicate its aims from the strike - not to mention that it totally failed to understand what it was you wanted! Blaming individuals for having no faith in the proposed action and choosing (as is their right) not to take part is missing the point spectacularly, and profits no-one.

back2front

captb747 thank you for the explanation re: crew bus aircraft to terminal. I understand the logistics are possibly difficult at LHR but my previous airline also flew into LHR and I don't recall every waiting for the bus. That was a good few years ago though and obviously the infrastructure at LHR has become increasingly over stretched.

VS should still be taking a look at what going wrong though as I'm sure they are being charged a hefty sum by the company providing the buses.

Monty Casino

Crew buses should never be a problem since if the bus operator has planned his workload properly he should have sufficient capacity to soak up delays.

There used to be a guy at Manchester who offered the best crew transport airside and landside but sadly he has moved on to to other things and it's back to the same old c**p!

The flight deck should call up on taxi in and ensure bus is there!

vs_lhr

You'd think, wouldn't you; although I suspect if the pricing pressure is anything like VS, then they don't have spare buses at peak times, nor spare drivers sitting around with nothing to do. One of the problems of negotiating suppliers down to the wire is that leaves them little margin for error when things go wrong (and unplanned surges in demand, due to things such as delays would often be out of their control).

But this is thread creep, and I wouldn't want to upset the forum gods

Monty Casino

I know that guy at Manchester bid for the LHR-LGW shuttle and was seriously undercut by you know who to get it!

Resource management is not about price. it's about the skill of managing your resources! If the ops controller knows what they are doing, you never get delays and have sufficient spare to absorb delays!

016FSM

hey vs lhr, what a thought, you contributing to this thread from the comfort of your very own thrown otherwise known as the bog!!

I've seen the new iphone and it is blooming amazing!! Oh technology!!!! I'm beginning to feel like my parents and now have a better understanding of what they meant when they said they didn't understand how to programme the video!! Bloomin' heck

vs_lhr

Surely if that was the case, we'd never have a delay on any aircraft either?

Resource management has to consider cost, hence why the MAN guy was undercut. If you build too much redundancy into the operation, you price yourself out of the market.

Monty Casino

Well done to everyone for seeing sense - it was obviously my post on Monday afternoon that persuaded union reps and management to sit down over a Starbucks & cinnamon bun and sort it all out!

Well done to 016FSM and cohorts for presenting well informed and balanced discussion throughout in these forums. You are a credit to yourselves and great ambassadors who are passionate about their jobs!

016FSM

Hey guys, in Richard's letter, he invited us to email him with our views on the pay deal, why we rejected it and what our concerns were. He said that he would read all emails and try to reply to as many as he could. Well, here's the reply he sent to me: (I deleted the first line because it has my name)

Thank you for taking the time to send me your thoughts regarding the cabin crew pay situation.

Our salary package is a competitive one and we can only do what we can afford although, for some this sadly won’t be enough to make them want to stay at Virgin Atlantic. It is however a myth that Virgin Atlantic crew are the worst paid in the industry. This is simply not the case.

I understand that the Virgin Atlantic management team did make themselves available at crew check in areas to find out what the issues were with the previous pay offers. They then restructured the award based on the feedback that they had received from crew. Unfortunately, this last offer was also rejected despite being strongly recommended by the union.

We offer many benefits that other airlines simply don’t. Virgin Atlantics’ staff travel package is the best in our industry and remains so, despite the increases in fuel prices and tax hikes that we have seen in recent years.

It’s really important that we don’t let our customers down during the strike periods. Ensuring we keep the airline flying will also give us the best chance of being able to resolve cabin crew pay.

I hope that despite the issues you are unhappy about, you will feel able to support the operation during the strike dates.

Kind regards

Richard

Monty Casino

016FSM that looks very much like a stock reply.

It didn't do VS any good to have its washing hung out in public but the situation was exacerbated by the division amongst the staff about the union. The boys at BA must have loved it!

It is the interest of all the cabin crew to act as a cohesive unit and to negoiate collectively directly with management. That way a "divide & conquer" strategy from management would not work! The union, with no disrepect to them, are paid employees and are remote to your thoughts, feelings opinions and problems. Cabin crew should deal, as the flight decks do, as a cohesive unit which has the backing of ALL cabin crew.

The "dispute" should never have got to where it did. The union reps failed to negotiate properly as did the company, hence the threatened stirikes.

As I said earlier in the week, VS relies on its cabin service to promote its airline - if VS customers have the perception that the staff are treated like S**t, then they will think they will be treated like s**t as well.

Richard should forget all these grandiose "save the earth" schemes - if people were really concerned about this, they would never fly and there would be no need for Virgin Atlantic! Look after the staff and let the staff contentedly look after the customers! People will think much more highly of Virgin, if you have the balls to do so!