vs_lhr

I have always believed that strikes achieve nothing, and the way this has progressed is even more flawed than any normal industrial dispute. Even if there was large support for the strike, in a service industry with strong competition, disruption like this does enormous damage to the business - that's a downturn in revenue that leads to savage cutbacks in order to keep the company afloat. And with the figures VS is working with, it's a very fine line between profit and loss.

The flip side to this is that not only are we going to have the impact of declining business (and already have lost some key corporate accounts because of the threat of the strike during December), but because of the way the union has handled the negotiations, we've got to a strike without anyone asking what deal would actually be accepted. It's total lunacy.

I post a lot because I feel quite passionately about it. I notice you're not jumping down Scooby's throat who has been my worthy counterpart on the pro-strike team for longer than I've even been registered here.

VCCM

But please tell me what is to stop the company walking all over us and slashing our packages (that's your package too) moving forward if the union loses its footing (what it has left of it) ?

Scooby, I liked her, It does appear you are the same as her but in the other camp.

Come back scooby.

magicE

Strange question but does anyone know If BB has been working solely for the CC at Virgin these past few weeks? I just found on the internet that he was involved in the BAA planned strikes aswell, strange that the dates aligned to cause most disruption dont you think.

As a side note it also had a Mobile Number for him. Any one need to give a call???

Jcdcon

They are not "slashing" our packages - that is emotive and not true - they may not be moving in the way that the majority want, but as far as I can tell my package has not reduced.

I always thought Scooby was a man??????

Raffles

I for one find this all so fascinating, as a driver (that’s your speak!) I can’t understand why you don’t all stick together? I know things are tough for you all but why can’t you just stick together and fight for a fair wage that you all deserve? You know that when “the drivers” pay was on the table 98% of them disagreed at the first ballot, but stayed together and reached a settlement that they agreed on! Do you know that it’s tied into flying hours and VS “drivers” are "up there with the competition”. As an example an F/O on an LAX gets around £300, and I believe cabin crew only get £25-42!!! That’s what team work can achieve!!! You know that once the cabin crew fight is over it’s the “drivers” turn, and once again they will get as much as they can from the company!!! As for anyone who has been with the company for a long time, you should know better than anyone of your worth!!!! Hold fast and bide your time until nearer the strike date, and then make your decision. I know that whatever happens, most respected “drivers” will not take an aircraft unless the regulated number of qualified cabin crew are on board. Having flown with lots of you I DO THINK THAT YOU DESERVE MORE MONEY. You are what makes the airline and you make people want to come back again and again!!! Good luck and remember YOU ARE WORTH MORE!!!!!!!!

vs_lhr

Well, the harsh reality is there is nothing to stop them. The fight is lost; the management have made it very clear there is no more on offer.

What happens next? Get rid of the union that caused the problem and get a new one that can not only negotiate a better deal, but also communicate with the membership to understand exactly what that deal should be.

The next negotiation comes up in April, so haste is required.

tinkerbelle

a lot of 3rd party there vs_lhr, aren't we in this together, did you not lose out on 4.8% too ?

dorisday

The support is welcome Raffles

VCCM

JDCON I fully agree, but not sticking to our guns we are giving them carte blanche to do exactly just that as vs_lhr has just said AND that's from someone that is not prepared to strike but recognises we are all in for the ultimate rogering if we dont stand strong.

016FSM

Hey VCCM, how long you been flying for Virgin? I've been here over 21 years and have seen the company go through some pretty bad times!! Many of my friends took redundancy after 9/11 and it was thanks to them that many of us, including me, kept their jobs. And why the redundancies? Because the airline was up you know what creek because there were no passengers!!

After BA went on strike, they kept their passengers because they're a huge outfit supported by the government. The pax we have we have because we built our reputation over many years of hard work, if we lose them, we aint gonna get them back so quick, trust me!!

If this strike hits the company really badly, they will start making cut backs and the first thing to go, will be some of the crew! New routes will be lost and they'll try to save every penny that they can whereever they can.

Have you any idea why so many of the U.S airlines went bankrupt a few years ago? Because their unions were so damned strong that the crew were on strike every 5 minutes and they lost money left right and centre!!

YES, as i've always said, I want a decent wage, but I'm not going to ruin Virgin's reputation and my chance of keeping my job fighting for it!! When you've been here 15 years plus and you're in your 40's, then maybe you'll understand where I'm coming from!! And before anyone says, "I won't be here that long", can I ask why? Cos it's not your intention to make a career out of flying? Well it wasn't mine either, but I did!!!

Our union will not crumble, we have made our point and the airline now knows we are ready for a fight, but a fight that we can win, not that will see us rub our own noses in Sh*t cos we end up being made redundant!! Let's get rid of B Boyd, he's useless, find someone else who knows what their members are asking for, not one who recommends a deal to find that over 70% of their members reject it!! The company knows we mean business. If we don't strike, the company will see that we don't want to ruin them and that's why we backed down, NOT because we gave in!!

016FSM

Hey Raffles, I see where your coming from and the reason most of us stuck our heels in was because we were following in your footsteps when flight deck said "the money or we strike" and you got the money!!

You get 2 nts in Jnb we only get 1, you get around £300 for an LA we get less than £40, next you'll be telling me you get paid for doing SEP in the office and have a day off after it

The difference is, you guys are a much closer knit community than we are as crew and you all stick together. That's almost impossible to do as crew, there so many mixed opinions, such a huge mix of ages, a wealth of different backgrounds and experience that nobody really knows who's in favour and whose against. Even on here there are so many differing views and opinions, and only a handful of VS crew compared to how many there actually are read/post on here!

I can just imagine ringing in to support the strike, turning up at the picket line to find that the strikers in the end are in the minority and the company manages to operate a near perfect schedule!! How stupid will we look then! But i'll tell you one thing, if this strike doesn't go ahead and then you guys end up getting another 'decent' pay rise, they'll be mass hysteria from the crew and THEN every single crew will be on that picket line!!!!!!

The company are not going to give in to our demands. You guys didn't get a strike date arranged and Branson didn't intervene. The Co NEED you, it's not so easy to replace flight deck, we CAN be replaced very very easily!!! That's the unfortunate truth!!

But it really does add fuel to the fire when you say an LA is worth £300 to the flight deck and we get £42!! That is the trip pay, not for anything else other than doing the trip! So the flight deck guys deserve £300 for doing the same trip that we get £42 for, that's FSM's, cabin crew don't even get as much as that!!

VCCM

I nearly didn’t post this because I don’t want the "ants post" to get lost, it is soooo good.

Dear 016FSM,

I have read your posts with interest especially the transition from your first post to current/last post, a serious transformation.

I don’t think BA is supported by the government anymore are they?
I have a good idea of how many carriers in the states have gone bust. None of the reasons in reports I have read have ever cited explicitly it was due to strong unions and strikes every 5 minutes. Reasons cited have included specifically, 9/11 & low consumer confidence post this, the linked mini (pretty major) stock market crash ,credit bubble, further low confidence (tails falling of planes, shoe bombers) expansion of low cost carriers and to ice the cake increasing fuel prices. Most don’t officially go bust, the chapter 11 laws there help them (via government, which I still don’t believe BA would get today, well, not without SRB or MOL throwing a wobbly). Some have now come out of chapter 11 status through changing their business models and a return to consumer confidence.

Remember that many crews took drastic pay cuts to help these airlines. As a result they are still flying under the same name, however there has been some pain as the managers realised they have managed to crew flights at reduced costs and tried to keep this going when no longer required. This then turned to bite them and has then led to disgruntled workforces, the most recent example Air France resulting in strike as management didn’t want to give their new found millions through employee savings back to the employees. (Give an inch and they take a mile).

If the strikes hit home hard then yes cut backs could happen, not only in crew but perhaps in other areas of the company where there is obvious expense that is not required. Many areas spring to mind that have been discussed throughout the history of "the famous Virgin PPruNe debate", however of all of those the cheapest is crew. (How many managers does it take to…. jokes spring to mind).

I would love John Harvey Jones (Troubleshooter) to come into Virgin and carryout a business health check; I think the results would be staggering.

I have been here a considerable time also and have chosen to make flying my career, as for ruining the company in trying to achieve what we are worth, why should the blame fall on our shoulders? This is a two way process - we should have been more stubborn in previous years as our colleagues were. For years the company has underpaid. Initially yes it was discounted as the sense of “family in red” was there, however that is long gone now and with the sharp increase in the cost of “everything” without the associated increase in pay, what used to work by saving and scraping to get by is no longer viable, there simply isn’t any room left, so something has to give, either my years of service or the company. This has been a time bomb ticking down for some time it hasn’t come out of the blue (or red).

If the company has had so many offers from people coming to help, why is it offering incentives also?

Sadly, I do not share your outlook of the company’s actions if the crew back down at this stage; I believe it will only make them more disrespectful towards the crew ,believing that bullying is acceptable, money can buy everything and crew cant afford to strike. The company think that most crew are so small minded that enough will work for short term gains irrelevant of what this will mean in the long term. I however grant the crew with much more savee than that and think most will find the attempt to "buy them off" as a further expression of disrespect and insult and be counter productive

Sorry that was so long, 400 words to say, sorry I disagree

A Red Ant.

016FSM

Hey VCCM, I hear what you're saying, and you're right, my opinions have changed as a result of reading the comments on here and other forums. I DO believe that I and the rest of us deserve more money, I do believe that we should ALL stick together and dig our heels in once and for all, if the flight deck guys can do it, why the hell can't we?

Having said that, I'm realistic and I can't see it happening. B Boyd has made a real hash of things, the flight deck union laid their cards on the table and told the company what they wanted, all we have said is we want more!! When Oliver Twist said that, he was thrown out on his ear and I think that is what the company are now doing to us!!

IF we had a strong and competant union who were directing and representing us well, I think we could pull it off, like the flight deck did and probably will again, but with the shambles that these negotiaions has been with BB representing us, I don't believe we can. I also believe whole heartedly as I have said a number of times, that I think the crew who strike will have a little black mark by their names and will suffer and I really don't want to be a marked man by the company. If I knew that everyone was sticking together, I would give my support 100% but I think the strike days are going to be a bloody mess! That's why my opinion has changed and I now think we should re consider, get new union representation and then when negotiations next come around, we'll be in a much stronger position. How can we fight the company when our union representative shook hands with the management and agreed TWO deals, one of 2%, BOTH OF WHICH the crew rejected!!

I keep looking at BA's strike in which they had 96% in favour and still they got nothing in the end!!

vs_lhr

Sorry, Tinkerbelle, I thought I'd already made it clear (perhaps it was in the previous thread there have been so many posts!), I'm ground based. I have an interest in this because crew actions directly effect me.

vs_lhr

Nice synopsis of the film Ants, but in that scenario it was theft and extortion that the locusts relied on to get the harvest. Crew are employees of the company. As a whole you can see everyone as the ant colony; ideally everyone is working toward the same goal without promoting a 'them and us' culture.

If you really think you are being exploited by the company to such an extent, then clearly you would be doing yourself a favour by getting out as quickly as possible. No one should have to put up with the conditions you describe - that it somewhat akin to a Victorian workhouse.

Kelas

Interesting to see a few of you say "Virgin is the cabin crew". If only! you guys fall way short of the best in the industry in regards to customer service. You will not get your pay rise for 2 reasons: 1) there are plenty of school leavers who would love to do your job at the rate you are currently being paid 2) you're not a united front. How can you be expected to be taken seriously if you don't all want the same thing.

If you want a higher paid job then move!

TightSlot

A few posts deleted today, and one user thread banned after calling others 'scabs' - take note that the use of this word is always unacceptable.

As the big day gets closer, hormone levels tend to rise: You've all been behaving well and posting like adults so far: Please continue doing so.

Once this dispute has been resolved, one way or another (and it will be resolved eventually, even if it takes a strike to do so) many of you will have to work together once more - Try and avoid saying things that might make the process of working with others more difficult.

Digitalis

Nice film synopsis - but it was 'Bugs Life', not 'Ants'! Oh, the pleasures of parenthood - I get to be an expert on kids' films!

VCCM, I don't think anyone here is disagreeing that our CC deserve greater reward. I strongly get the feeling, however, that most CC don't appreciate just exactly what the deal agreed by the Union actually represented in percentage terms. It most certainly wasn't a bare 4.8%. Yes, I know that even the 8.5% to 10.5% increase (depending on rank) that had been due to be paid from April 2008 did not wholly address the problem, but it would have been a bloody good start - and, with unity and coherent leadership, a good Union would have been able to achieve much more over the next few years. Sadly, your Union was not up to the job. That's not your fault, nor is it the Company's (their job will always be to keep costs down to maximise profit). It is the Union's fault. That is where you should direct your anger; they have failed you, and they are continuing to fail you by advocating a strike that has no clear objective.

Incidentally, we should clear up any misconception about the difference between what pilots receive for an LA (or any other flight) and what CC get. A very significant proportion of pilots' pay is productivity- and profit-related. That is, they are paid in proportion to the flying hours achieved (up to a contractural limit of 750 hours annually, or more under certain individual agreements), at a rate that is in part determined by the company's profitability - and therefore it's highly likely to reduce next year! It is not 'extra' pay as it is fully pensionable. Hence any flight attracts Flying Hours Pay in direct proportion to the time spent in the air. A similar deal for CC was rejected by the Union, I understand. But I doubt they asked you about that!

Not true. The pilots never threatened to strike. They simply showed a united, educated and implacable front to the Company, and demonstrated exactly why it would benefit the Company to come up with a deal to satify their demands. There was never any threat to strike. but, equally, there was never any doubts that had such a threat been made it would have carried the weight of unity and clear intent.

As for the CC strike days themselves, no picket lines will be allowed inside the airport area. That applies to any workgroup, not just Virgin, and will be enforced by the Police. Whether it applies to BAA-run car parks, I'm not sure, but you can be certain that no-one will be impeded if they intend to work on the strike days. The atmosphere among those who do work is likely to be very upbeat and fun. I am certainly looking forward to working during the strike - should it hold, which I suspect it won't.

red_eye_rat

As no reply came to this would it be safe to assume that no-one knows what deal is being saught. Few here seem to agree with each other, fewer still with anything the union proposes.
That seems a strange state of affairs with the strike less than a week away.

Kasual Observer

Gosh, how things have deteriorated. The likelihood of the strike achieving its aims (?) is looking more and more doubtful as each day passes. Conversations with my CC colleagues when on flights and downroute give me the sense that they are finally realising that they have made a big mistake and that they have been left high and dry by their pathetic union.

I just wish that there had been a bit more common sense from more of you. I refer back to my original post on this topic here. I don't want to say "I told you so" but back in October, you were given friendly advice that many failed to comprehend.

The comparisons with the film "Ants" or how we, the pilots, conducted our negotiations is not realistic. We had almost unanimous support from the pilot workforce for our union negotiators. Also, we have a union that is made up of very professional people with excellent support and training packages for our reps. In addition, our union (association) is almost exclusively dedicated to our workgroup and we are not some sub-division of a larger, generalised union.

Also, we did not achieve our aims in one big leap. It took may years of negotiations and incremental steps for us to get our last 3 year pay deal. To watch how your union and its pathetic negotiators have managed to screw things up that so badly for you is not nice. We all agree that you deserve better conditions. What we don't agree on is how your union have gone about it.

So, what can you do about it now? Not much I suspect. The damage has been done. Your terms and conditions as well as working relationships between crew and management will have been set back as much as ten years or more. Those that turn up for work on strike days, and I suspect that it will be a majority, will probably earn enough over the strike days to cover the loss of the 4.8% offer. Those that do strike will almost certainly lose a lot more than just the 4.8% they could have had whilst they regrouped and went into the next round in a much stronger position.

Finally, for those that are going to have a whinge at the fact that a pilot will earn £300 or more just for operating an LAX should consider that we are not paid a "flight supplement". We negotiated an hourly rate for part of our package and we did so from a position of absolute strength, not maybe 30% of our workforce. If you want to earn the money we do than you have to make the effort and do the studies and training we did. It's not rocket science and the majority of us don't even have a university education.

We have achieved our current decent salary by having around 98% membership of a good pilots association (union) who are dedicated to what we do and not just some branch of a general workers union. We incrementally negotiated to where we are today and didn't expect a result in one go. We made proposals to the company that included concessions from us. However, we also showed the company where they could make concessions and how much of our salary could be paid for in increased productivity.

Maybe it's too late for you cabin crew to get your acts together but you should at least try and salvage something by phoning and emailing en-mass to your union reps or better still, your managers and see if you can get a reasonable offer back on the table and show willingness to talk about it. It certainly won't be better than the original deal and most likely will be worse because the company will want to recover some of the losses that the strike announcement has had on the commercial side of the operation.

Unless you are totally united and organised and ready to go into negotiations next time in such a position then you are doomed to many more years of poor terms and conditions and lacklustre, vindictive management. Judging from the posts on here, you all need a serious kick up the arse for not being cohesive enough and for not listening to free advice in the first place.

I told you so!