vs_lhr

Please, can we stop propagating this myth that Branson is able to dig down the back of the sofa and satisfy the crew pay demands with a couple of million stuck to a half-eaten toffee.

This is a business. Virgin Group and SIA are both shareholders. When there is a profit in the company, the board can elect to pay its shareholders a dividend. Unless the company was going down the tubes and the shareholders wanted to prop it up to protect their investment, the money doesn't go back the other way. Money in Branson's or Virgin Group's bank account does not belong to Virgin Atlantic.

And before someone pipes up with the laughable assertion that Virgin have all sorts of shady accounting practises that mean they've been squirrelling away mountains of cash that don't appear on the books; remember that all companies have to be independently audited, and since the days of Enron scandals, there's very little chance a company the size and profile of Virgin would be able to hide money away from the scrutiny of the tax man under recent regimes. Obviously certain members of the cabin crew feel they have more expertise in this area than KPMG, Arthur Andersen or Ernst & Young.

What has become abundantly clear is that the current dispute is simply disorganised. The union don't know what they're supposed have been fighting for and have lacked basic communication skills in dealing with the membership. Brian Boyd looks like a man trying to advance his own career in a newly merged union rather than a level-headed negotiator with the crew's interests at heart. It is time to step back from this mess. Accept the deal (surprisingly) still on the table, and be better prepared for the next round of pay talks. Preferably with a different union.

scoobydooo

Yes we could accept a dealwhere we have to sacrifice terms for an RPI increase or we couldstick together and get something closer to what we deserve without having to give up conditions. Everyone has their own agenda. As for there is no more money, they said that when they offered 2% ! cry wolf.

vs_lhr

That's where we differ, Scooby. I respect your opinion, but I don't believe management will produce a better offer, and they are ready to fight.

Given the disorganisation of the negotiation, it would be better to accept this is as far as it can go *at this stage*. Then, in 18 months time, the negotiation will be better placed for further agreement. Like the pilots, this needs to be seen as a progression, not a nuclear strike.

sparkydamar

It has been with great interest that I have followed this thread, as a virgin frequent flyer I was trawling through the web trying to find some info on the proposed strike and I stumbled on your forum. May I just contribute to this well balanced debate that virgin staff I feel are the best in the world and I have flown with many airlines, so I was shocked to hear that they are so unhappy with the current pay conditions, in my experience underpaid and over worked staff do not produce the consistently high levels of service that as a customer have always enjoyed from the virgin teams. It seems to me that reading between the lines that the union is now about to try and heard these bright individuals into some kind of strike action. Maybe the deal on the table is not so bad after all of course time will tell. On the flipside, of course I want these people to get the best possible deal available they deserve at least that, but I have a sneaky suspicion that many of these individuals do not really want this strike, and is this really a case of unions working in harmony with management and staff to broker the best deal for both parties or is this about ego. To finish if my flight is cancelled who am I going to blame, it will not be the virgin staff who have looked after me so many times in the past. IT WILL BE THE UNION

vsfsm

The union recommended the last deal so i hardly think they are trying to cause a strike. A union rep came into my briefings before the last ballott to recommend that we vote yes to the last deal so that it would put us in a good position for the next set of negotiations. As soon as he went out of the room my crew said they would be voting no as they are fed up with waiting until the next deal and the next deal and so on..... I have to say i agreed with them.

I appreciate what the union have done for us in the last 6 years but the majority of our members feel that now is the time for the company to show some loyalty to us and dig deeper. If the money has to come out of the pot thats in place for the pilots imminent pay rise then so be it, then they will have to fight like we have to get what they feel is fair.

The company must have known this was going to happen eventually. Why didn't they plan for it. It is not our fault the management in place are incompetent enough not to have forseen this, all the crew did..

scoobydooo

I forgot to say, Yesterday I read the latest supposedly crew FAQ's on the ifly site. It's like the episode from Kitchen nightmares when the guy wrote his own restaurant reviews and put them on google.

vsgla

If anyone remembers 1st year history they'll remember Lord HeeHaw. He's the Nazi propaganda tool who used to broadcast bogus news reports from Europe into britain telling the Brits that our boys were taking a battering and there would be no point carrying on with the fight because the Germans would win anyway. Well that FAQ page is pretty much just the same. Propaganda to try to scare crew into voting against industrial action.
Well done Heir ridgeway

BostonBill

The FAQ page is stating some facts. Your response is claiming propaganda. This is propaganda itself in implying that the FAQ page is inaccurate and not to be trusted.


I can only see proaganda from both sides. If the same amount of energy were invested in reasoned discussion and dare i say it "compromise" then we'd all win.

stansdead

vsgla

If you remember your history lessons, you would remember the "gentleman" in question was known as Lord HawHaw.

Not Lord HeeHaw.

Lesson over, you must try harder.

TightSlot

Presumably vsgla also intended it to be "Herr" Ridgeway rather than "Heir".



If you're going to be a smartass, then it pays to be smart as well.

Why am I contributing to this thread? - Because vsgla is attempting a (tedious) linkage between Nazism and Virgin Managers: Sadly, Nazi comparisons are almost inevitable during times of industrial unrest - and are always inappropriate and offensive. So don't do it again - ever.

vs_lhr

I would suggest those that are dismissing the FAQs offer some evidence to the contrary rather than claiming they are fabrication.

I am certainly prepared to believe the company will 'spin' to present themselves in a positive light, but to accuse them of bare-faced lies without proof is irresponsible.

vsgla

Sorry, I thought Lord HeeHaw was more appropriate. Cause apparently thats how much money this company makes. The inference that the information on the FAQ is wrong was not intentional but that doesn't mean it's not propaganda.

I've sent a few questions to the company like. When are the pilots due to start their pay negotiations and. What do the company feel the pilots will see as a fair deal. I don't expect to get an answer to either as these types of questions don't help when your trying to plead poverty. If there's no money what are they going to pay the pilots in a couple of months when they start asking for a fair rise?

Tags

Nothing has been put to the troops as yet!

What makes you think the pilot's will achieve a pay rise?

Our last 2 deals were negotiated when the company produced a far greater ROS than we currently are. That said, part of our pay is geared around a 3 year averaged ROS, with a poor ROS, the pilot's monthly take home will go down.

Personally I think we'll go for "lifestyle issues" and not monetary gain due to VS's current trading position!

In The Pink

Hi Tags

"Lifestyle issues" with an RPI pay increase "tagged" on no doubt.

Shanwick Shanwick

2 days to go before the ballot closes and still haven't received a paper. A call to Unite unveiled the fact that many are in the same position and would be unlikely to receive one before the 20th.

Now that's a professional union.

Resignation en-route!

tin tin

Shanwick, I would say that's is the fault of the individual, not the union!

vsgla, the company will not give you any info on the pilot pay talks as you are not a pilot. Even the pilots would just be referred to our union web site.

stansdead

I have said it before and I will say it again: The Pilots pay talks are not linked to the CC pay talks.

I cannot, for the life of me, understand why some of you are so concerned with Pilot pay talks that have not yet even begun.

You should concentrate on your own battle rather than worrying about other people's.

As Pilots won't get any inflation busting deal ,because quite frankly I believe that VS does not have pots of Cash to pay it with.

Read the Papers, the World is changing economically. And Changing rapidly too. Hard times are ahead.

Digitalis

This is not now, nor will it ever be, a battle between pilots and cabin crew. Those who would make it so need to calm down and get a bit of perspective. Pilots and CC are just two of several workgroups within the company. They may be the largest and most important groups, but there are many others. All are entitled to expect rises which reflect increases in the cost of living, subject to the Company having the funds to pay those rises without risking its own survival. Naturally, the amount that would risk survival will be disputed between the Company and its employees, but there most certainly is a limit, as anyone with an ounce of common sense can work out.

Now, Vslga, exactly as you would be upset if pilots could get answers from the Company about your confidential pay negotiations, so pilots are entitled to have their talks' confidentiality respected. That is why you won't get an answer. And, for the umpteenth time, the pilots' pay was not raised by one set of pay talks, or one years' deal. It took 6 (SIX) years of patient negotiating and getting a bit at a time. That's longer than most CC will work for the Company!

Shanwick Shanwick you make my point (from this post) eloquently: the Union's disorganised and shambolic approach will lose them members, which will have an inevitable negative impact on the CC's ability to negotiate a satisfactory settlement either now or in the future. If the CC - the largest negotiating group in the Company - fail to get a satisfactory deal, there is little hope for anyone else in the Company, especially those who have no Union representation. That is why this is so important to everyone else, and why you (collectively) should back off and keep your powder dry until you are properly organised and led.

vsgla

Why is it the unions fault if a large amount of it's members wait until 2 days before the close of ballott to enquire about their own ballott form? People cannot say they were not aware of the situation and when my ballott didn't arrive when i started hearing that others had, i called a union rep and got the number for our head office. A ballott form was on my doorstep the next morning. Whats so hard about that. This ballott was run for 3 weeks, 1 week longer than traditional ballotts ofthis nature to cater for our industry. So peolpe cannot say they were away on a HongKong Sidney flight and didn't have time. If they were that bothered they would have done everything to ensure they got a ballott.


You guys were not happy at lagging way behind the industry leaders when you went for your last pay deal, so you threatened the company by utilising your entitlement to a ballott. You are now better payed than most other pilots in the industry and still have good lifestyle benefits. At the time, the company pleaded poverty but low and behold. At the last minute the money was found to give you a deal that a majority of your members were happy with. The detrimental effect to the company was furthest from your mind as your members focused on what they felt would put you among the best paid pilots in the industry.

I ask the question again. Why shouldn't the cabin crew do the same.

Why should we take your advise and listen to the company's pained bleeting about affordability when only a few years ago you didn't. It all smacks of self interest as you realise that if we do get the company to find the money or face action, you might not be in a position to push for as much as you hope you might achieve.

You have a small work force in comparison to the cabin crew. You also have a more mature work force who when it comes to situations like this take a greater interset and actually become involved(as a general majority). It is easier therefor for your union to assume that you understand these situations and they can assume that if you don't you will contact them.
Our members number far greater than yours and are generaly a lot younger and less interested in the day to day running of the company than your members and so don't see the benefit that our union has given our comunity.
So imagine how many crew are sitting at home now wondering where the ballott form is and why it hasn't been delivered yet, but who wont think that maybe they should have picked up the phone to enquire about the ballott before now. Also think about the amount of crew who are sitting at home with a ballott but are deciding not to bother sending it back because they are not sure how to vote, rather than going and attempting to gain the info required to make an informed decision. If people can't be to even bother then who's fault is that. Its not rocket science.

So don't sit there banding about insults about our union and it's reps when you have no idea. I have utilised some of the reps in the past and i'm aware of the effort they put in throughout the year. Too many people are jumping on the band wagon and taking the easy excuse. Its not the unions fault, any union is only as strong as it's members.

Shanwick Shanwick

Further to my post (no pun intended) above.

Contact was made with unite about 10 days ago upon receipt of a letter checking that the ballot (only 1 "t" in ballot) paper had been received. Due to living outside the UK, postage takes a little longer than it would to either Crawley or Glasgow. I imagine the missing ballot is due to the lack of international postage applied to the envelope as is the case with every other piece correspondence received from Unite.

Need I say more?