The Virgin Strike Thread (Merged)
Now all we need ithe people upstairs to listen.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: EU
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
After lots of thought I have been convinced that I have to vote NO on this. There have been some very informed, wise and honest posts in the last few pages, thankyou to those who have taken the time to do so. Lets all move on, do the job we love and get ourselves better organised for next time.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If I may be permitted another observation... the ballot papers should have started arriving today and the results will be known on the 20th December. It would seem that quite a few of the people making comments on here are under the false assumption that they may actually be on strike over Christmas. Also, it would appear from those who are under that impression, that that is the only reason to vote for a strike as they will then be able to have the holiday off.
I'm sure many of you don't think that way. However, judging from the latest galley FM, the vast majority of you have no idea what it is exactly you are going to be striking over. As has so eloquently been pointed out already by Digitalis, no one has been able, so far, to explain exactly what is going to happen if you actually vote for industrial action.
I must say that the communications from your union leaders has been dismal. Judging by the comments made here, not one of you knows exactly what this is all about. You are talking of voting for industrial action without having any idea of what that actually entails. Considering that your union leader, Brian Boyd, twice "strongly recommended" the offer and you twice had a vote of no confidence in him by rejecting it, I cannot understand how you can now be so confident that you are somehow in a position of strength when in fact, you are in disarray and, as pointed out above, have very little idea of what is actually going to happen whether you get a yes or a no vote with only a marginal majority.
If I could just remind everyone on here what was actually communicated by Brian Boyd. On 26th September just after the 3rd ballot he wrote "...I, along with your pay reps, have met the Company on two occasions. These meetings have culminated in a revised offer and to a position where I truly believe that Unite is able to "strongly recommend" acceptance. I do sincerely hope that after reading the enclosed Company offer, you support my "strong recommendation" for acceptance."
Then, on the 5th October after the 4th ballot, Boyd wrote "Unite has now undertaken a thorough consultation period where we have been available to speak to our members at various locations. You have been given the opportunity to consider the Company's revised offer, and discuss any aspect of it with Unite Officers and Workplace Reps. I do believe that this "Final Offer" represents the best we could hope to negotiate under the current circumstances. It is the highest single percentage wage increase across all UK airline companies in 2007. The guiding principle of Unite is to continually pursue the very best improvements to our members terms and conditions of employment wherever they work, while retaining a realistic approach to what can be achieved. I am of the opinion that we have maintained this principle throughout these negotiations. I am therefore "recommending acceptance" of the offer."
Following the rejection of the 4th ballot, Brian Boyd, was directly quoted as saying "Unite is calling upon Virgin Atlantic to deliver a long term solution to this problem. It has gone on for too long and our members have had enough. Unite has written to the company today to inform them that the union will ballot its members for strike action within the next two weeks."
That was on the 2nd November and two weeks later the company had still not heard from him about any ballot on industrial action. It was only on the 26th of November that official notification of intention to ballot was made. The closing date for ballots to be received is 20th December.
So, some of you on here are telling us that you are confident of achieving your aims whilst being led into industrial action by a leadership that you have no confidence in. I shake my head in despair at the naivety of your actions. I do agree that you need to improve your terms and conditions but, as has already been stated, you need to do so progressively and sensibly. This way is more likely to do long term harm to your ambitions and is likely to put you back several years in industrial relations terms with the company.
I repeat my advice, for what it is worth, that you should take the current offer which is "highest single percentage wage increase across all UK airline companies in 2007" and then regroup. Get yourselves someone who an represent your interests properly. You will have about 18 months which, in all honesty, probably isn't enough time to organise properly and enter negotiations from a stronger position.
All the gung-ho comments from the pro strike commentators on here will not change the outcome of a poorly represented union with very limited, minority support from your membership, going head to head with the company. The resulting defeat, and it will end in tears for the cabin crew, will shred your organisation to pieces. Far better to accept the current offer and live to fight another day.
I just hope that the majority of the cabin crew use their vote and cast it with the knowledge of what the consequences will be, either way. It has already been shown that the apathy of the majority allows the voiciferous minority to lead you into uncharted waters with roughly 29% rejecting the last offer and the rest not voicing an opinion. Think hard and use common sense.
Good luck, because you are going to need it.
I'm sure many of you don't think that way. However, judging from the latest galley FM, the vast majority of you have no idea what it is exactly you are going to be striking over. As has so eloquently been pointed out already by Digitalis, no one has been able, so far, to explain exactly what is going to happen if you actually vote for industrial action.
I must say that the communications from your union leaders has been dismal. Judging by the comments made here, not one of you knows exactly what this is all about. You are talking of voting for industrial action without having any idea of what that actually entails. Considering that your union leader, Brian Boyd, twice "strongly recommended" the offer and you twice had a vote of no confidence in him by rejecting it, I cannot understand how you can now be so confident that you are somehow in a position of strength when in fact, you are in disarray and, as pointed out above, have very little idea of what is actually going to happen whether you get a yes or a no vote with only a marginal majority.
If I could just remind everyone on here what was actually communicated by Brian Boyd. On 26th September just after the 3rd ballot he wrote "...I, along with your pay reps, have met the Company on two occasions. These meetings have culminated in a revised offer and to a position where I truly believe that Unite is able to "strongly recommend" acceptance. I do sincerely hope that after reading the enclosed Company offer, you support my "strong recommendation" for acceptance."
Then, on the 5th October after the 4th ballot, Boyd wrote "Unite has now undertaken a thorough consultation period where we have been available to speak to our members at various locations. You have been given the opportunity to consider the Company's revised offer, and discuss any aspect of it with Unite Officers and Workplace Reps. I do believe that this "Final Offer" represents the best we could hope to negotiate under the current circumstances. It is the highest single percentage wage increase across all UK airline companies in 2007. The guiding principle of Unite is to continually pursue the very best improvements to our members terms and conditions of employment wherever they work, while retaining a realistic approach to what can be achieved. I am of the opinion that we have maintained this principle throughout these negotiations. I am therefore "recommending acceptance" of the offer."
Following the rejection of the 4th ballot, Brian Boyd, was directly quoted as saying "Unite is calling upon Virgin Atlantic to deliver a long term solution to this problem. It has gone on for too long and our members have had enough. Unite has written to the company today to inform them that the union will ballot its members for strike action within the next two weeks."
That was on the 2nd November and two weeks later the company had still not heard from him about any ballot on industrial action. It was only on the 26th of November that official notification of intention to ballot was made. The closing date for ballots to be received is 20th December.
So, some of you on here are telling us that you are confident of achieving your aims whilst being led into industrial action by a leadership that you have no confidence in. I shake my head in despair at the naivety of your actions. I do agree that you need to improve your terms and conditions but, as has already been stated, you need to do so progressively and sensibly. This way is more likely to do long term harm to your ambitions and is likely to put you back several years in industrial relations terms with the company.
I repeat my advice, for what it is worth, that you should take the current offer which is "highest single percentage wage increase across all UK airline companies in 2007" and then regroup. Get yourselves someone who an represent your interests properly. You will have about 18 months which, in all honesty, probably isn't enough time to organise properly and enter negotiations from a stronger position.
All the gung-ho comments from the pro strike commentators on here will not change the outcome of a poorly represented union with very limited, minority support from your membership, going head to head with the company. The resulting defeat, and it will end in tears for the cabin crew, will shred your organisation to pieces. Far better to accept the current offer and live to fight another day.
I just hope that the majority of the cabin crew use their vote and cast it with the knowledge of what the consequences will be, either way. It has already been shown that the apathy of the majority allows the voiciferous minority to lead you into uncharted waters with roughly 29% rejecting the last offer and the rest not voicing an opinion. Think hard and use common sense.
Good luck, because you are going to need it.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: uk
Posts: 208
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
highest single percentage wage increase across all UK airline companies in 2007"
You have put some considerable time into that post KO, nice piece once again. I think the union can be excused for the delay in notification to the company, based on 2 counts,
1. legally the company has to ensure it has ALL members correct details before the ballot is issued otherwise the company can claim the ballot is not legal. (see legal rules of an industrial ballot)
2. It could be possible the delay was strategically, as a yes vote for industrial action has to be taken within 4 weeks, so optimum timing may have been a factor.
I too hope everyone exercises their vote this time and with a level head, there has been some good dialogue here of late, sometimes it's good to take a step back and re-asses to ensure you are on the correct course even if that means taking a few steps back.
I wish everyone well.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Virgin Mary and Scooby, print out those posts you think are helpful in the discussions i hope you will have on the aircraft, and in downroute bars and room parties (I hope they still happen!), and let your colleagues read them. If it helps people understand what they're getting into, and prompts some thought about what to do next, then it will have been a worthwhile exercise.
Once again, all the very best of luck.
Once again, all the very best of luck.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Crawley
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When I say too much to lose, I mean I don't want to lose my job and I certainly don't want others too.
Regardless of what everyone says it comes down to an individuals circumstances and I will be better off under the 4.8% deal. I don't live at home and I am going to make a career out of being at Virgin.
As many of people have said before we are not united enough to see this fight through to the end. People may vote for strike action, but how many will be outside The Office or Queens on the picket line? very few I feel.
Take this deal and we can prepare ourselves for the next round of talks. If the ballot comes back as a 'yes' then I shall certainly be going into work and no I am not management.
The damage has already started, lets not make this any worse. I no everything isn't perfect at VS with crew down, IFE etc etc etc and as Steve Ridgeway said some crew think a strike is going to fix these issues, but it wont.
Everyone just think long and hard about your vote!
Regardless of what everyone says it comes down to an individuals circumstances and I will be better off under the 4.8% deal. I don't live at home and I am going to make a career out of being at Virgin.
As many of people have said before we are not united enough to see this fight through to the end. People may vote for strike action, but how many will be outside The Office or Queens on the picket line? very few I feel.
Take this deal and we can prepare ourselves for the next round of talks. If the ballot comes back as a 'yes' then I shall certainly be going into work and no I am not management.
The damage has already started, lets not make this any worse. I no everything isn't perfect at VS with crew down, IFE etc etc etc and as Steve Ridgeway said some crew think a strike is going to fix these issues, but it wont.
Everyone just think long and hard about your vote!
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@ Scooby,
It seems to be a common reaction that everyone who posts on here (and doesn't agree 100% with the pro-strike position) is treated with suspicion. A little unfair, don't you think? The number of crew register here is only going to be a tiny minority of the total workforce, so when something as important as this gives new blood a reason to post their opinion, we should respect it rather than attempt to slyly undermine anyone who's not completely on our side.
I prefer a balanced argument
It seems to be a common reaction that everyone who posts on here (and doesn't agree 100% with the pro-strike position) is treated with suspicion. A little unfair, don't you think? The number of crew register here is only going to be a tiny minority of the total workforce, so when something as important as this gives new blood a reason to post their opinion, we should respect it rather than attempt to slyly undermine anyone who's not completely on our side.
I prefer a balanced argument
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: uk
Posts: 208
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Vs_Lhr
I hear what your are saying, I guess once bitten twice shy, I am more than well aware that management read and contribute to these discussions and have received numerous personal messages suggesting I be careful due to that reason, so it is the cynic in me.
It's not everyone though, when you look back at the people who have popped up and it is their first post and first time contributing to this thread they are usually on the day of a ballot or ballot result all pro company.
I for example will not judge or have a pop at BY_BOY he/she has a high post count is obviously an established poster and from reading his/her historical posts once can see when they joined where they have come from etc etc it is his vote and he/she has made a decision and I respect that.
I am just dubious of the unknown and new posters with zero post count suddenly gettign involved with the debate make me ponder.... Twilight zone music
I hear what your are saying, I guess once bitten twice shy, I am more than well aware that management read and contribute to these discussions and have received numerous personal messages suggesting I be careful due to that reason, so it is the cynic in me.
It's not everyone though, when you look back at the people who have popped up and it is their first post and first time contributing to this thread they are usually on the day of a ballot or ballot result all pro company.
I for example will not judge or have a pop at BY_BOY he/she has a high post count is obviously an established poster and from reading his/her historical posts once can see when they joined where they have come from etc etc it is his vote and he/she has made a decision and I respect that.
I am just dubious of the unknown and new posters with zero post count suddenly gettign involved with the debate make me ponder.... Twilight zone music
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: EU
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No need to be dubious, its just that from this morning things became more real than ever!! I did not have a clue which way to vote. I needed to get more info and just googled "crew internet forum", read this site all morning, found it very interesting in some places boring in others and just chidish in some
(needed a little help from a flight deck friend at first but soon got the hang of it) I now cant waite to start getting stuck into some flight deck debates
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Virgin Mary,
I can also recommend cabincrew.com and v-flyer.com (for a passenger opinion). There are many different views out there - read them all and take what you will from them; but ultimately it should be your decision alone which way to vote.
I can also recommend cabincrew.com and v-flyer.com (for a passenger opinion). There are many different views out there - read them all and take what you will from them; but ultimately it should be your decision alone which way to vote.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: uk
Posts: 208
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mary
Dont be too quick to judge cc.com, often it is the first sign of things changing, i.e. it can be a bit of galley FM but also often it is the first source of changes afoot, no smoke without fire etc. The latest rumour is on the subject of our allowances not spent down route and brought home becoming taxable :GULP:
Dont be too quick to judge cc.com, often it is the first sign of things changing, i.e. it can be a bit of galley FM but also often it is the first source of changes afoot, no smoke without fire etc. The latest rumour is on the subject of our allowances not spent down route and brought home becoming taxable :GULP:
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Evening/Morning all,
I won't post at length due to the hour and intake of one too many beverages (on leave before the red tops get excited)!
Whilst on the train tonight I read an article in the "Log" - a BALPA publication.
It carried a frank (and brutal in parts) article written by the BMI Company Council chairman (for pilots) on the whole strike process. It was a sobering read. What became very obvious is the disarray UNITE currently finds itself in. One of the main points voiced was that you should only strike if you are confident of winning!
If I'm able, I'll try and download the article from BALPA and reproduce pertinent parts of it (with the author’s permission).
My wife is crew with Virgin, so I have read all her (or indeed lack of) UNION correspondence. You terms and conditions do fall short of what you are due. Having worked in the airlines for 20 years, for several companies, if I thought she was in a position to win this one I'd say so here. Sadly that is not the case. One of the translations of "Union" as per the OED, translates as "the fact of uniting, or the fact of being united" sadly that doesn't tie in with the position you now find yourselves in.
Scooby, if you were a betting man/woman, how many of your colleagues do you honestly think will be stood next to you on that picket line? Forget the "I'll be there" crowd; they'll be the same bunch - plus some, that don't turn up for organised events downroute! Actions speak louder than words!
Scooby, you are obviously a lucid, well educated individual. I think you need to re-evaluate if you think you can win this one, and come out of it in a respected position to be able to go in to a negotiation next time round - if not why not?
I won't post at length due to the hour and intake of one too many beverages (on leave before the red tops get excited)!
Whilst on the train tonight I read an article in the "Log" - a BALPA publication.
It carried a frank (and brutal in parts) article written by the BMI Company Council chairman (for pilots) on the whole strike process. It was a sobering read. What became very obvious is the disarray UNITE currently finds itself in. One of the main points voiced was that you should only strike if you are confident of winning!
If I'm able, I'll try and download the article from BALPA and reproduce pertinent parts of it (with the author’s permission).
My wife is crew with Virgin, so I have read all her (or indeed lack of) UNION correspondence. You terms and conditions do fall short of what you are due. Having worked in the airlines for 20 years, for several companies, if I thought she was in a position to win this one I'd say so here. Sadly that is not the case. One of the translations of "Union" as per the OED, translates as "the fact of uniting, or the fact of being united" sadly that doesn't tie in with the position you now find yourselves in.
Scooby, if you were a betting man/woman, how many of your colleagues do you honestly think will be stood next to you on that picket line? Forget the "I'll be there" crowd; they'll be the same bunch - plus some, that don't turn up for organised events downroute! Actions speak louder than words!
Scooby, you are obviously a lucid, well educated individual. I think you need to re-evaluate if you think you can win this one, and come out of it in a respected position to be able to go in to a negotiation next time round - if not why not?
Interesting to see the ever increasing opinion that few who are prepared to strike will be prepared to stand on the picket line (especially if this mornings weather is anything to go by),I'd be interested to see how many were out in force should a strike go ahead. Also what still worries me is the number of comments referring to crew who just do not realise the gravity of the whole situation and as mentioned a few posts back,there will have to be a bit of give and take,though this doesnt seem to be the feeling amongst some,who expect more money for no change to working conditions,it just aint going to happen is it?
Certain posters taunting non cabin crew about what they (non crew) have to lose is just not on and only serves to increase the 'tarring with the same brush' effect,at the same time its refreshing to hear views that are grounded (no pun intended) and realistic about the situation and show consideration for other areas of the company,certainly restores my faith!
Personally,I have heaps of respect for the job you chaps do,I'd rather unblock a bog than deal with angry punters for 8 hrs upwards and can understand why there is bad feeling towards management when you look at some of the spending decisions lately yet we are all being told to work harder,save more when money is poured into projects like VK that economically just dont make sense in the current climate.However a strike will only make things worse,without wanting to mention the R word.....Apologies for any repetition in this post and I'm hoping it comes across as balanced,best of luck guys.
Certain posters taunting non cabin crew about what they (non crew) have to lose is just not on and only serves to increase the 'tarring with the same brush' effect,at the same time its refreshing to hear views that are grounded (no pun intended) and realistic about the situation and show consideration for other areas of the company,certainly restores my faith!
Personally,I have heaps of respect for the job you chaps do,I'd rather unblock a bog than deal with angry punters for 8 hrs upwards and can understand why there is bad feeling towards management when you look at some of the spending decisions lately yet we are all being told to work harder,save more when money is poured into projects like VK that economically just dont make sense in the current climate.However a strike will only make things worse,without wanting to mention the R word.....Apologies for any repetition in this post and I'm hoping it comes across as balanced,best of luck guys.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Scooby, as has been pointed out, you do seem to be quite intelligent and able to express your thoughts quite sensibly. However, your naivety about the consequences of industrial action and continual need to defend every argument put forward against taking industrial action shows quite clearly that you still have a lot to learn.
As an example, in post #82 you say: "For me personally I am sick that every month after all the bills have 'just' been paid and nothing is left or one is negative (please dont lecture me on curbing my spending habits, I am very careful and save allowances" and in post #103 you say: "The latest rumour is on the subject of our allowances not spent down route and brought home becoming taxable"
It is precisely that kind of naivety that is going to be your downfall if you continue to recommend voting for industrial action without knowing in as much detail as possible what the consequences are. If you did not have the intelligence to comprehend that the taxman will want his share of ANY money you earn or bring back into this country, then as in all cases, ignorance of the law is no excuse when you are in court.
The repeated claims on this thread and others from cabin crew who harp on about saving their allowances and bring them back to the UK is all the ammunition the tax man needs. The fact that your pathetic union have not already informed you of HMC&E's intentions to tax your allowances is yet one more example of why you should seriously consider the consequences of taking industrial action when you have a leadership that is not only ineffectual but quite obviously out of the loop when it comes to passing on advice.
The taxman (HMC&E) is already looking very closely at what the crew are doing with their allowances. If you had a proper union worth their dues you would have been informed of this fact and adjusted your spending accordingly. Instead you and others have already admitted to bringing as much of your allowances home with you. It is not "galley FM". It is a harsh reality that you are going to be clobbered on your allowances and that is not the company's fault.
So, all those who are advocating for industrial action when you are in disarray, unorganised and without the stomach for a fight apart from a few naive militants, should wake up, smell the coffee and take a bit of free advice from those of us who do have a very good union and have managed to improve our terms and conditions. We didn't do it in one go and we made sure that we had ALL the information to hand before accepting the advice of our reps.
We advise you to take the offer you have now and regroup. It will take a lot of dedication from whoever decides to take on the role of reps and it will also require a lot of support and advice from your union. You may not be ready in 18 months, in which case you push just that bit harder and wait until you are ready. Eventually you will improve your T's & C's and you will look back and reminisce about "the old days". Vote for a strike now and you put yourselves back 10 years or more.
Your vote, your choice.
As an example, in post #82 you say: "For me personally I am sick that every month after all the bills have 'just' been paid and nothing is left or one is negative (please dont lecture me on curbing my spending habits, I am very careful and save allowances" and in post #103 you say: "The latest rumour is on the subject of our allowances not spent down route and brought home becoming taxable"
It is precisely that kind of naivety that is going to be your downfall if you continue to recommend voting for industrial action without knowing in as much detail as possible what the consequences are. If you did not have the intelligence to comprehend that the taxman will want his share of ANY money you earn or bring back into this country, then as in all cases, ignorance of the law is no excuse when you are in court.
The repeated claims on this thread and others from cabin crew who harp on about saving their allowances and bring them back to the UK is all the ammunition the tax man needs. The fact that your pathetic union have not already informed you of HMC&E's intentions to tax your allowances is yet one more example of why you should seriously consider the consequences of taking industrial action when you have a leadership that is not only ineffectual but quite obviously out of the loop when it comes to passing on advice.
The taxman (HMC&E) is already looking very closely at what the crew are doing with their allowances. If you had a proper union worth their dues you would have been informed of this fact and adjusted your spending accordingly. Instead you and others have already admitted to bringing as much of your allowances home with you. It is not "galley FM". It is a harsh reality that you are going to be clobbered on your allowances and that is not the company's fault.
So, all those who are advocating for industrial action when you are in disarray, unorganised and without the stomach for a fight apart from a few naive militants, should wake up, smell the coffee and take a bit of free advice from those of us who do have a very good union and have managed to improve our terms and conditions. We didn't do it in one go and we made sure that we had ALL the information to hand before accepting the advice of our reps.
We advise you to take the offer you have now and regroup. It will take a lot of dedication from whoever decides to take on the role of reps and it will also require a lot of support and advice from your union. You may not be ready in 18 months, in which case you push just that bit harder and wait until you are ready. Eventually you will improve your T's & C's and you will look back and reminisce about "the old days". Vote for a strike now and you put yourselves back 10 years or more.
Your vote, your choice.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brighton
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having just registered, this is my first post on Pprune although I have been visiting this website on and off for many years.
I've never posted as I just prefer to read and enjoy the many points of view of all concerned.
I have finally decided to take the step as like so many, I am frustrated with what is going on around us at Virgin.
Like 3000+ others, I have just received my ballot for industrial action. As we all know, it really is a big decision to make. I have been at Virgin for over 16years and have always believed we should have a voice, it's a slightly croaky one at the moment, but nevertheless a voice.
I fully believe that work needs to be done on perfecting that voice before we try to use it effectively. This is why I fully agree with Kasual Observers last paragraph, post #106:
We advise you to take the offer you have now and regroup. It will take a lot of dedication from whoever decides to take on the role of reps and it will also require a lot of support and advice from your union. You may not be ready in 18 months, in which case you push just that bit harder and wait until you are ready. Eventually you will improve your T's & C's and you will look back and reminisce about "the old days". Vote for a strike now and you put yourselves back 10 years or more.
That's probably the best piece of advice I have read hence my registration and reply...
ted
I've never posted as I just prefer to read and enjoy the many points of view of all concerned.
I have finally decided to take the step as like so many, I am frustrated with what is going on around us at Virgin.
Like 3000+ others, I have just received my ballot for industrial action. As we all know, it really is a big decision to make. I have been at Virgin for over 16years and have always believed we should have a voice, it's a slightly croaky one at the moment, but nevertheless a voice.
I fully believe that work needs to be done on perfecting that voice before we try to use it effectively. This is why I fully agree with Kasual Observers last paragraph, post #106:
We advise you to take the offer you have now and regroup. It will take a lot of dedication from whoever decides to take on the role of reps and it will also require a lot of support and advice from your union. You may not be ready in 18 months, in which case you push just that bit harder and wait until you are ready. Eventually you will improve your T's & C's and you will look back and reminisce about "the old days". Vote for a strike now and you put yourselves back 10 years or more.
That's probably the best piece of advice I have read hence my registration and reply...
ted