Virgin - Crew Discussions II
Join Date: Nov 1999
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I struggle to understand some of the naive attitudes on this thread. The loyalty you show is admirable, you have been brain washed with the Virgin ethos, and now you are prepared to work for less than the industry standard. At BA the CC are selfish and militant, but they have probably the best conditions and pay in the industry. Virgin doesn't care about you, Branson puts the profits off shore and claims the company cant afford it, wake up! Its not a big family, sorry to destroy your illusions, its a business and you must fight for the right to be treated and paid like other crew in companies doing a similar job.
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Well done to all of you that voted No..! around 2,000 of you...! WOW..!
All you know is 60% of those who voted were stupid enough to vote No (i.e. vote to lose your jobs in the long run, destroy any goodwill you have with the fare paying passengers etc...)
How many ballots were sent back?
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Ahh Warkman,
I was wondering when you wre going to join us?
What do you think will happen next?
Honest question as I'm actually a fence sitter whose only problem is she loves the company too damn much
Its been both enlightening and worrying reading the views of our staff, would have liked to have seen more Office Staff on here along with engineers for their point of view.
I was wondering when you wre going to join us?
What do you think will happen next?
Honest question as I'm actually a fence sitter whose only problem is she loves the company too damn much
Its been both enlightening and worrying reading the views of our staff, would have liked to have seen more Office Staff on here along with engineers for their point of view.
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To start my post I should state
A) I do think Virgin crew are under valued and deserve fairer reward.
B) Industrial action, up to and including a strike is a very important right of any employee, and this right should be protected but used very very wisely.
Now given that 40% of the workforce voted to accept the deal, that leaves the union in a much weaker position than most people seem to realise.
Now the facts get even harder to swallow!
If there is now a vote for a strike, we can only expect an even smaller percentage of the total crew establishment to take part in that strike. This means that any strike will be pretty ineffectual. The best any strike will do is keep a FEW aircraft on the ground. Do the maths. This is simply not enough to get what is wanted! And COULD mean the resulting settlement is even less than is on the table now. Dare I say, it could even cost a few people their jobs!!
Unless Virgin cabin crew are a TOTALY UNITED workforce, industrial action this time around will be TOTALY USELESS.
And the ballot has proved that Virgin cabin crew are definitely NOT TOTALY UNITED. Some were perfectly prepared to accept the the last deal.(and that is their right) This changes the game plan entirely.
If there was a 92% rejection of this offer, no doubt there would be more support for industrial action, but this did not happen.
Troops, the battle is lost but the war is not. You fought a good fight.
Read the writing on the wall
Separate the wood from the trees
Get a different strategy next time around
Do anything you need to
but....
DON'T MARTYR YOURSELVES IN A POINTLESS STRIKE THAT "NOW" CANNOT GET YOU WHAT YOU WANT
A) I do think Virgin crew are under valued and deserve fairer reward.
B) Industrial action, up to and including a strike is a very important right of any employee, and this right should be protected but used very very wisely.
Now given that 40% of the workforce voted to accept the deal, that leaves the union in a much weaker position than most people seem to realise.
Now the facts get even harder to swallow!
If there is now a vote for a strike, we can only expect an even smaller percentage of the total crew establishment to take part in that strike. This means that any strike will be pretty ineffectual. The best any strike will do is keep a FEW aircraft on the ground. Do the maths. This is simply not enough to get what is wanted! And COULD mean the resulting settlement is even less than is on the table now. Dare I say, it could even cost a few people their jobs!!
Unless Virgin cabin crew are a TOTALY UNITED workforce, industrial action this time around will be TOTALY USELESS.
And the ballot has proved that Virgin cabin crew are definitely NOT TOTALY UNITED. Some were perfectly prepared to accept the the last deal.(and that is their right) This changes the game plan entirely.If there was a 92% rejection of this offer, no doubt there would be more support for industrial action, but this did not happen.
Troops, the battle is lost but the war is not. You fought a good fight.
Read the writing on the wall
Separate the wood from the trees
Get a different strategy next time around
Do anything you need to
but....
DON'T MARTYR YOURSELVES IN A POINTLESS STRIKE THAT "NOW" CANNOT GET YOU WHAT YOU WANT
Join Date: Mar 2004
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I have tried not to post to allow everyone to make their own minds up without outside interferance. 
I think that there are many of the younger ones who find all of this exciting and will vote for a strike rather like the Rover workers did, when Red Robbo told them to, its something new and exciting, well, untill you see you pay slip or lack of it after a month on strike, plus the fact it will take you years to get back to where you were that £1,000 per month you lose will never come back.
I think VS will try to run routes, less of them, with some flights piggy backing each other (i.e VS15 with VS27) the buisness routes will be their importatnt routes, more UC and gold pax, can't afford to lose them.
So these will be done on minimum staff and perhaps foreign based crew/aircraft? or wet leases perhaps?
It depends on the other sections, will the checkin outsourced staff refuse to service flights? will the cockpit jockies fly those flights? will the baggage handlers and other services refill those flights? probably, most are outsourced now.
Many on the B&S routes may not get away at all, leaving them peed off with both VS and the CC, leading to them jumping ship on their once a year trip to MCO and LAS.
This will lead to crap in the news, less people wanting to fly VS, will mean less jobs and contract terminations.
With the state of the industry (FGS, MYT etc shedding jobs) many will have to leave to get jobs outside the industry.
No-one wins in strikes, apart from rival airlines, especially with the Open Skies coming. Get buisnessmen onto a Delta flight or BA etc, will you ever get them back? Remember the way that VS had to give goodies away after 911 to get bums on seats?
One thing is for sure, it will be a gorgeous picket line!
I think that there are many of the younger ones who find all of this exciting and will vote for a strike rather like the Rover workers did, when Red Robbo told them to, its something new and exciting, well, untill you see you pay slip or lack of it after a month on strike, plus the fact it will take you years to get back to where you were that £1,000 per month you lose will never come back.
I think VS will try to run routes, less of them, with some flights piggy backing each other (i.e VS15 with VS27) the buisness routes will be their importatnt routes, more UC and gold pax, can't afford to lose them.
So these will be done on minimum staff and perhaps foreign based crew/aircraft? or wet leases perhaps?
It depends on the other sections, will the checkin outsourced staff refuse to service flights? will the cockpit jockies fly those flights? will the baggage handlers and other services refill those flights? probably, most are outsourced now.
Many on the B&S routes may not get away at all, leaving them peed off with both VS and the CC, leading to them jumping ship on their once a year trip to MCO and LAS.
This will lead to crap in the news, less people wanting to fly VS, will mean less jobs and contract terminations.
With the state of the industry (FGS, MYT etc shedding jobs) many will have to leave to get jobs outside the industry.
No-one wins in strikes, apart from rival airlines, especially with the Open Skies coming. Get buisnessmen onto a Delta flight or BA etc, will you ever get them back? Remember the way that VS had to give goodies away after 911 to get bums on seats?
One thing is for sure, it will be a gorgeous picket line!
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Warkman
Other staff groups cannot get involved, this is called secondary industrial action and is illegal. Sometimes strikes (or just the threat of one) can work, but only at the right time. The right time for virgin crew is clearly not now. I just hope people will open thier eyes and minds to realise this.
Other staff groups cannot get involved, this is called secondary industrial action and is illegal. Sometimes strikes (or just the threat of one) can work, but only at the right time. The right time for virgin crew is clearly not now. I just hope people will open thier eyes and minds to realise this.
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This is going to be a rough ride for those crew who are prepared to strike. Unlike BA where most departments are in a union and have stood up for what they want.
In Virgin it is really only the cabin crew and pilots, there will not be much empathy for crew who are prepared to strike from other departments and passengers with flights booked. As a result I expect to read many more posts on all forums (is that the plural of forum ?) against industrial action.
In Virgin it is really only the cabin crew and pilots, there will not be much empathy for crew who are prepared to strike from other departments and passengers with flights booked. As a result I expect to read many more posts on all forums (is that the plural of forum ?) against industrial action.
Join Date: Nov 2007
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along with engineers for their point of view.
As warkman has already said if you strike for a week then that is a 2% payrise lost, if you strike for a month then you need 8%+ and you will still be no better off for a year and you will have lost your collegues their jobs. Does that really make sense.
A lot of the other staff I have spoken to are very worried about the possible outcome of a strike and see the crew as (get ready for the flames) selfish. We all work hard and very often have to go even further than the mile beyond the extra mile to keep you all flying. Ok perhaps we earn more but we are at work more and we do can't just do our job for a couple of years before moving on as it takes us at least 7 years to qualify properly. On a hourly rate comparison a technician who has just completed his/her 4 YEARS basic training can expect about the same as CC. To get any amount more he/she has to then sit about 2 years worth of complete b****rd exams in their own time and financed by themselves. They then have to buy all their own tools which can easily run into the thousands. Try seeing that from our perspective.
How many crew are intending to stay for as long as they possibly can? Perhaps that is why we all took 2% this year with not much fuss. It is a longer term prospect for many of us. Some years you win, some you lose. Whatever the case we don't deserve to lose our jobs because the cc are willing to strike without properly thinking through the consequences.
One thing that stick in everyone's throat is sickness. If CC were a bit more moderate with their sickness then there would be an HUGE amount more in the pot to go around (for everyone) . Ok there are always some who are sick more than others but the average per head in CC is horrifying (much much higher than the national average). I know that it is an industry wide thing but why not change it. The CBI estimates £600 per day (total) cost to business for sickness. Work the figures out for yourselves. Perhaps an acceptance of the deal and some work to cut sickness, crew down etc would put you in a much stronger position. It is not that hard really. When you are ill you go sick and when you want a day off you take leave and when you are due into work and can't be bothered you do what the rest of the world does and grit your teeth and go in.
(Braces himself!) Ok then off you go ................
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I feel very dissapointed by the result of the latest ballot. I was however under the impression that if a better offer wasnt made (which I doubt it will be) Then we would automatically strike and there would be no ballot for that.
If this is not the case then as much as I dont feel a strike would be at all beneficial I think it would frustrating to know that there are people who voted no for the pay deal and no to strike as well, whats the point in that? Its just greed and no balls!
The last pay offer was not that bad, especially if you take into account the other non pay conditions ie bidding for guarenteed days of stby month etc.. perks which we dont currently have.
I agree with warkman and tin tin, We are not in a strong position, 60% is not a huge ammount of no votes, especially when you consider that not all ballot papers will have been returned and approx another 30% of the workforce are not even union members.
If this is not the case then as much as I dont feel a strike would be at all beneficial I think it would frustrating to know that there are people who voted no for the pay deal and no to strike as well, whats the point in that? Its just greed and no balls!
The last pay offer was not that bad, especially if you take into account the other non pay conditions ie bidding for guarenteed days of stby month etc.. perks which we dont currently have.
I agree with warkman and tin tin, We are not in a strong position, 60% is not a huge ammount of no votes, especially when you consider that not all ballot papers will have been returned and approx another 30% of the workforce are not even union members.
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Chaps, if you do vote to strike, can you please make sure that you don't strike around the 14-16th or 20-23rd of Dec. I've not had a holiday since January, and I'm going away around then on staff travel loads permitting.
Cheers.
Cheers.
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I can totally see your point of view Grease 7, its a bit like comparing ourselves to the Flight Deck too.
I too thought the last offer was a good one and would have been accepted even though my opinion was swayed towards the end when I gave the crew down situation a bit of thought.
Sickness has always been high at VAA, but we didnt start to experience these awful crew down flights until the management shake-up a few years ago with the arrival of ML and LS et al.
Variable manning was introduced, which is total joke and has NEVER worked. It just saves the company money at the expense of our pax. So I cant help thinking that most flights deliberately go crew down with a cover as 'crew sickness'. Just my theory.
One thing that I do think is quite admirable is that the company have left the current offer on the table. I thought that would have been withdrawn immediately. If this remains it gives the crew a rather large safety net.
I shall not be voting in this ballot as I am no longer a union member.
I too thought the last offer was a good one and would have been accepted even though my opinion was swayed towards the end when I gave the crew down situation a bit of thought.
Sickness has always been high at VAA, but we didnt start to experience these awful crew down flights until the management shake-up a few years ago with the arrival of ML and LS et al.
Variable manning was introduced, which is total joke and has NEVER worked. It just saves the company money at the expense of our pax. So I cant help thinking that most flights deliberately go crew down with a cover as 'crew sickness'. Just my theory.
One thing that I do think is quite admirable is that the company have left the current offer on the table. I thought that would have been withdrawn immediately. If this remains it gives the crew a rather large safety net.
I shall not be voting in this ballot as I am no longer a union member.
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I can see why a crew down situation can make things difficult but it is the same everywhere.
For example, a shift of engineers. 2 on leave, 1 on a course, 1 sick. Do they delay the aircraft for us, No. We all just pull out the stops and work harder than usual. If the plane doesn't fly then we don't have jobs which is a whole lot worse than working hard.
Both me and the people I work with really know what it feels like to finish a shift completely and utterly exhausted but that's life. The legal requirements for manpower have been met, the aircraft are flying and safe, the passengers happy and we have a job. Just go to bed and hope tomorrow is easier.
It is funny because engineers have a reputation for being able to find fault with anything and complain about everything but when it really comes down to it they just seem to pull together and get on with it with the minimum fuss.
I am not saying you are wrong to complain but just don't think it is any different anywhere else.
For example, a shift of engineers. 2 on leave, 1 on a course, 1 sick. Do they delay the aircraft for us, No. We all just pull out the stops and work harder than usual. If the plane doesn't fly then we don't have jobs which is a whole lot worse than working hard.
Both me and the people I work with really know what it feels like to finish a shift completely and utterly exhausted but that's life. The legal requirements for manpower have been met, the aircraft are flying and safe, the passengers happy and we have a job. Just go to bed and hope tomorrow is easier.
It is funny because engineers have a reputation for being able to find fault with anything and complain about everything but when it really comes down to it they just seem to pull together and get on with it with the minimum fuss.
I am not saying you are wrong to complain but just don't think it is any different anywhere else.
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Firstly, just to say that I am a BA crew member, with a couple of good friends who work for VS.
My opinion is that going through this situation is very stressful for all concerned. C.crew by nature are not necessarily militant/communist/Scargill loving people, & do not undertake going to a possible strike/industrial action lightly.
It will get worse before it gets better. There will be rumours of what the management will do if a strike goes ahead,eg suspending strikers, cancelling services & the company going bust. Personally, I very much doubt any of this will happen & is scaremongering. But it is undoubtedly very scary & convincing, especially if you haven't been through a strike before.
Don't count on too much support from other depts, Selfishness will soon see that off. You will be in this alone, but only you can fight for your terms & conditions. The press will attempt to crucify you. The same old cliche's about trolleydollies lazing around on a beach while the poor old nurses are still underpaid will probably be peddalled out.
It seems from reading through this thread that sadly,there is already a split growing from your community, eg the FSM's seem to think its a good deal & vote yes, whilst the junior crew members disagree. The deal does look quite loaded in favour of the senior ranks, I think. This split will grow,just when unity is most needed.
Try not to get side-tracked into various hypothetical issues. Keep focussed on the real issues.
You will get told that this is the "final final final offer", which will be withdrawn if not accepted. Remember this is a simple negotiation tactic. A deal will be done, & probably with about one minute to go before the deadline. Its one big game of brinkmanship. You won't get 100% of your wishlist, but stand firm & united & hopefully you will get a reasonable outcome for all crew & your customers.
All the best.
My opinion is that going through this situation is very stressful for all concerned. C.crew by nature are not necessarily militant/communist/Scargill loving people, & do not undertake going to a possible strike/industrial action lightly.
It will get worse before it gets better. There will be rumours of what the management will do if a strike goes ahead,eg suspending strikers, cancelling services & the company going bust. Personally, I very much doubt any of this will happen & is scaremongering. But it is undoubtedly very scary & convincing, especially if you haven't been through a strike before.
Don't count on too much support from other depts, Selfishness will soon see that off. You will be in this alone, but only you can fight for your terms & conditions. The press will attempt to crucify you. The same old cliche's about trolleydollies lazing around on a beach while the poor old nurses are still underpaid will probably be peddalled out.
It seems from reading through this thread that sadly,there is already a split growing from your community, eg the FSM's seem to think its a good deal & vote yes, whilst the junior crew members disagree. The deal does look quite loaded in favour of the senior ranks, I think. This split will grow,just when unity is most needed.
Try not to get side-tracked into various hypothetical issues. Keep focussed on the real issues.
You will get told that this is the "final final final offer", which will be withdrawn if not accepted. Remember this is a simple negotiation tactic. A deal will be done, & probably with about one minute to go before the deadline. Its one big game of brinkmanship. You won't get 100% of your wishlist, but stand firm & united & hopefully you will get a reasonable outcome for all crew & your customers.
All the best.
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OK, more comments from engineering (and a few other feelings I have picked up on from other departments).
Your right, you are in for a rough ride. Most other departments do not support you. Simple truth is that you have turned down a pay offer that is over twice what UK staff got and just accepted. You have to admit that makes you look very selfish. In general nobody in VS is fantastically paid. Those that don't like that in the long run move on, we all have that option. Funny how many people come back though, I can think of 6 straight off.
It does seem to me that there is a lot of "sheep" about as well. If you check one of my earlier posts you will see I spoke to one CC who couldn't even explain the offer that had been made and was going to vote no because everyone else was. Pretty pathetic really.
Route allowances: As I said earlier as well, your allowances are far better than anything that we get when on company business. Another point that you will get no support on.
Crew down: Every flight I have departed this week has had crew call in sick for. Every time I have worked Christmas (about 5 in the past 11) or New Year ( 8 in 11) crew have called in sick. Nobody in my department who was rostered to work called in sick. We just get on with it. The sickness only exacerbates a situation, which I actually think you may have a point on.
There is also a lot of external pressures building at the momment. Possible recesession, oil prices rising, open skies. It seems that a lot of people in other departments realise this, not exactly the ideal time to take action is it?
One other story; I was in the galley working the other day. CC were chatting and one said "weren't those Strawberry Daquieries great last night" and went on to talk about a particular bar. Wish I could afford to go out and drink cocktails in that place. Managed to bite my lip and walk away before getting into a "discussion" on how hard up CC supposedly are.
Shame really as I get on very well with some crew. Hope things don't progress to the point where our assistance in those little things that makes your life easier is withdrawn due to bad feeling.
Think long. Think hard. This time it is not just about "you".
Your right, you are in for a rough ride. Most other departments do not support you. Simple truth is that you have turned down a pay offer that is over twice what UK staff got and just accepted. You have to admit that makes you look very selfish. In general nobody in VS is fantastically paid. Those that don't like that in the long run move on, we all have that option. Funny how many people come back though, I can think of 6 straight off.
It does seem to me that there is a lot of "sheep" about as well. If you check one of my earlier posts you will see I spoke to one CC who couldn't even explain the offer that had been made and was going to vote no because everyone else was. Pretty pathetic really.
Route allowances: As I said earlier as well, your allowances are far better than anything that we get when on company business. Another point that you will get no support on.
Crew down: Every flight I have departed this week has had crew call in sick for. Every time I have worked Christmas (about 5 in the past 11) or New Year ( 8 in 11) crew have called in sick. Nobody in my department who was rostered to work called in sick. We just get on with it. The sickness only exacerbates a situation, which I actually think you may have a point on.
There is also a lot of external pressures building at the momment. Possible recesession, oil prices rising, open skies. It seems that a lot of people in other departments realise this, not exactly the ideal time to take action is it?
One other story; I was in the galley working the other day. CC were chatting and one said "weren't those Strawberry Daquieries great last night" and went on to talk about a particular bar. Wish I could afford to go out and drink cocktails in that place. Managed to bite my lip and walk away before getting into a "discussion" on how hard up CC supposedly are.
Shame really as I get on very well with some crew. Hope things don't progress to the point where our assistance in those little things that makes your life easier is withdrawn due to bad feeling.
Think long. Think hard. This time it is not just about "you".
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just recieved a letter from the union today as im sure that some of you also have by now.
Seems that there will be another ballot for industrial action, though was interested that the company has left the same offer on the table, where did you hear that sign it? If this is true then I think there still could be a chance that we may end up with the 4.8%
Just for anyones info who hasnt yet received their letter, only 69% of people who received there ballot paper returned them. 60% numbers rejected, 40% accepted.
Seems that there will be another ballot for industrial action, though was interested that the company has left the same offer on the table, where did you hear that sign it? If this is true then I think there still could be a chance that we may end up with the 4.8%
Just for anyones info who hasnt yet received their letter, only 69% of people who received there ballot paper returned them. 60% numbers rejected, 40% accepted.
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Quote:
I would still like to know how many actually voted out of the 3200 members.
What is the 60% sixty percent of?
Nowhere near 3200, of that you can be sure.
I would still like to know how many actually voted out of the 3200 members.
What is the 60% sixty percent of?
Nowhere near 3200, of that you can be sure.
I would expect the 40% who were for the offer to cooperate with the 60% who were not. If roles were reversed the same would be expected.
And FWIW I've got a flight with VS in December too.
And FWIW I've got a flight with VS in December too.
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This really doesnt help things when the company says there is no more money??
THE SPICE GIRLS’ touring costs have been slashed after airline Virgin Atlantic pledged to fly them around the world for free.
The quintet hit the road at the beginning of December for their eagerly awaited comeback shows and Virgin boss RICHARD BRANSON has allowed the ladies to use his airline gratis.
In return the fivesome – EMMA BUNTON, VICTORIA BECKHAM, GERI HALLIWELL, MEL B and MEL C will have to undertake a certain amount of promotional work for the firm.
Bearded Branson said, “Virgin signed the Spice Girls 12 years ago and I got to know them at that time.
“So, we are absolutely delighted to be working with them on their reunion tour and really pleased to have the honour of taking to girls out to LA for their rehearsals, but even more importantly bringing them back to the UK for the British leg of their tour.”
www.thesun.co.uk
THE SPICE GIRLS’ touring costs have been slashed after airline Virgin Atlantic pledged to fly them around the world for free.
The quintet hit the road at the beginning of December for their eagerly awaited comeback shows and Virgin boss RICHARD BRANSON has allowed the ladies to use his airline gratis.
In return the fivesome – EMMA BUNTON, VICTORIA BECKHAM, GERI HALLIWELL, MEL B and MEL C will have to undertake a certain amount of promotional work for the firm.
Bearded Branson said, “Virgin signed the Spice Girls 12 years ago and I got to know them at that time.
“So, we are absolutely delighted to be working with them on their reunion tour and really pleased to have the honour of taking to girls out to LA for their rehearsals, but even more importantly bringing them back to the UK for the British leg of their tour.”
www.thesun.co.uk