Virgin - Crew Discussions II
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....means that there is no possibility of an improved offer.which is generous in present circumstances
Would love to share the sentiment they will listen next time, unfortunately I believe history repeats itself as it has this time and will continue to over and over, we hold are ankles management apply the KY and .... oh here we are again 2 years later !
As for management using this site.... had that confirmed but I'm afraid I cant say how. Had to giggle at the reference made in earlier posts to hundreds of managers - now that will be a way to save money - copy the BA culling of middle managers..... hmmm maybe that is why they are so active at the moment in trying to persuade the deal.. Oh I mean NOT so active anymore having been told to lay off because they are pi$$ing crew off.
Funny old world
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It would be a pretty sorry state of affairs if as a company we were not investing in new A/C for the future. If there were no orders panned in the pipeline I for one would be more worried. Remember we don't own our A/C we lease them, rent them. We don't pay out any money for these. The order price quoted is what the order is worth, not what VS pay out.
We pay out a deposit, which we get back when the first A/C comes.
I don't want to be working on those old 744 forever with no entertainment. I would love to work on new shiny planes, which I am proud to be on.
Having been an FSM for 10 years now and a man nearly in my forties (can't believe it's nearly here), I along with everyone else at VS is in a position to vote for what I think is correct. I don't think people should be bullied into making any decision they don't want too. People have their own minds, they use them everyday in making many decisions in life, so use it to make this one.
I am pleased that I was able to share my feedback on the last deal to management at check in and at one of the OBM meetings I attended. I am also pleased that this new deal has addressed all the things that I didn't like about the last deal, so it's a YES from me.
Yes I am paid more than a CC/SCC and CSS, however I never used to be. I worked my way up the ranks and have made VS a carer choice, which I love. That is something that all CC/SCC and CSS have the choice to do.
I firmly believe that as we go into this period of no growth for 3-years the company will begin to address the issues that have been raised to them. This included all salaries and supplementary payments like trip pay, crew down etc. Also remember that with the opportunity for anyone FSM with 10-years service in that rank can go part time. This means promotion throughout all the ranks.
I've been asked if I would like to be involved in a workshop on one of these topics in Jan 08, which I agreed too. I want the best for the crew. We are the best in the industry and yes we are not well paid in some aspects to other carriers, however I think the time has come where that will change.
Voting for a strike will do nothing but damage this company. It would mean no promotion, probably down-sizing of routes, which would mean down-sizing of crew.
I remember the Gulf War in the 90's and 9-11. Getting that call at home informing me that I potentially could be made redundant was one of the worst day's of my life.
We have a great lifestyle at VS, much better than any other airline and once salaries are addressed I firmly believe everyone will be a lot happier and content.
We are going to grow eventually and with that comes new promotion and exciting carer prospects. Lets not ruin that by calling a strike, which would only lead to even less money in the pot, lack of customer confidence and eventually job losses. I've seen it happen before.
You have a choice and as an FSM I have never made a point of passing my view on to others, only if they ask me.
We have never been here before and I hope to never be here again and finally think that VS management have learnt a real lesson with this and how it was handled. This is a starting block for the future.
Anyway, take care you all, just wanted to have my say. Flying tonight so off to get some rest.
Happy flying
x
We pay out a deposit, which we get back when the first A/C comes.
I don't want to be working on those old 744 forever with no entertainment. I would love to work on new shiny planes, which I am proud to be on.
Having been an FSM for 10 years now and a man nearly in my forties (can't believe it's nearly here), I along with everyone else at VS is in a position to vote for what I think is correct. I don't think people should be bullied into making any decision they don't want too. People have their own minds, they use them everyday in making many decisions in life, so use it to make this one.
I am pleased that I was able to share my feedback on the last deal to management at check in and at one of the OBM meetings I attended. I am also pleased that this new deal has addressed all the things that I didn't like about the last deal, so it's a YES from me.
Yes I am paid more than a CC/SCC and CSS, however I never used to be. I worked my way up the ranks and have made VS a carer choice, which I love. That is something that all CC/SCC and CSS have the choice to do.
I firmly believe that as we go into this period of no growth for 3-years the company will begin to address the issues that have been raised to them. This included all salaries and supplementary payments like trip pay, crew down etc. Also remember that with the opportunity for anyone FSM with 10-years service in that rank can go part time. This means promotion throughout all the ranks.
I've been asked if I would like to be involved in a workshop on one of these topics in Jan 08, which I agreed too. I want the best for the crew. We are the best in the industry and yes we are not well paid in some aspects to other carriers, however I think the time has come where that will change.
Voting for a strike will do nothing but damage this company. It would mean no promotion, probably down-sizing of routes, which would mean down-sizing of crew.
I remember the Gulf War in the 90's and 9-11. Getting that call at home informing me that I potentially could be made redundant was one of the worst day's of my life.
We have a great lifestyle at VS, much better than any other airline and once salaries are addressed I firmly believe everyone will be a lot happier and content.
We are going to grow eventually and with that comes new promotion and exciting carer prospects. Lets not ruin that by calling a strike, which would only lead to even less money in the pot, lack of customer confidence and eventually job losses. I've seen it happen before.
You have a choice and as an FSM I have never made a point of passing my view on to others, only if they ask me.
We have never been here before and I hope to never be here again and finally think that VS management have learnt a real lesson with this and how it was handled. This is a starting block for the future.
Anyway, take care you all, just wanted to have my say. Flying tonight so off to get some rest.
Happy flying
x
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Virgin89
May I ask you what makes you think the that the pay will ever be addressed properly ?
I agree the last deal was terrible and this one looks like roses in comparison to that, I don't honestly think that was pure coincidence - do you ?
Why do you believe that ? Try and convince me why I should believe anything management say at the moment - the same management that have undertaken these pay talks in the fashion they have, have been trying to sell this deal, posting on this site and others and generally operating like a political party in election year...
A further question to you is what would make the perfect deal ? You have said how this one addressed all the points in the last one (not hard really). You said once pay is sorted out everyone will be a lot happier. So if you think that needs to be sorted out why not force the company to go back to the negotiating table and sort it out rather than just laying down and rolling over ? If your answer to that is because I dont want to strike and crumble the company fair play, but we both know like every other time the company has said it wont go back to the table... it has !! Do you honestly think the parties involved would not sit down and talk further before letting an actual strike go ahead ?
It's pure and simple scare tactics.
safe flight.
We have a great lifestyle at VS, much better than any other airline and once salaries are addressed I firmly believe everyone will be a lot happier and content.
I am also pleased that this new deal has addressed all the things that I didn't like about the last deal
and finally think that VS management have learnt a real lesson with this and how it was handled. This is a starting block for the future.
A further question to you is what would make the perfect deal ? You have said how this one addressed all the points in the last one (not hard really). You said once pay is sorted out everyone will be a lot happier. So if you think that needs to be sorted out why not force the company to go back to the negotiating table and sort it out rather than just laying down and rolling over ? If your answer to that is because I dont want to strike and crumble the company fair play, but we both know like every other time the company has said it wont go back to the table... it has !! Do you honestly think the parties involved would not sit down and talk further before letting an actual strike go ahead ?
It's pure and simple scare tactics.
safe flight.
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Scoobydoo, I don't agree with all your comments but you do make some good points.
I have also asked myself the question over the past few months, "why would I tick the yes box when they keep going back round the table?" What would make anyone tick the yes box if we always thought there was a better deal. If they offered 5% would we say no and go for 6%, then 7% and on and on.
I've done my research and spoken to many people about this over the past few months and I have to say I do believe them.
For all the bad mouthing that management are getting at the moment there are also some good people in there. People that I trust are normal and that in the past have helped me out, given me paid time off for various reasons over the past that other companies wouldn't even dream of giving.
Most of the money that VS has in the bank is made up of advance pax sales, sales that in the event of a stike would dwindle as VS would have to give that money back. We are only as strong as the pasengers that have the confidence in us. Confidence that we will operate certain flights on certain days. We rely on a good cash flow to survive and from after attending one of the OBM meetings last week got to hear all about this, what we have in the bank and how we use this.
Do we want more? Yes of course we do Scoobydoo. Will we get it? Well I hope so. I just feel that the past few months has put all of us in a much stronger position when we go into the next round of pay talks, in 12 months time
Don't tranish everyone with the same brush in that Ivory tower Scooby, it's not fair. There are many genuine people in this company, both in the air and on the ground.
Give it 12-months and I bet the next deal starts off a lot better than this. You can't sort out all the issues with pay during one pay deal. You can however sort it out over time, which is what I think VS will do from now on.
I could be wrong and if I am then I will eat my hat.
Take care
Virgin 89
I have also asked myself the question over the past few months, "why would I tick the yes box when they keep going back round the table?" What would make anyone tick the yes box if we always thought there was a better deal. If they offered 5% would we say no and go for 6%, then 7% and on and on.
I've done my research and spoken to many people about this over the past few months and I have to say I do believe them.
For all the bad mouthing that management are getting at the moment there are also some good people in there. People that I trust are normal and that in the past have helped me out, given me paid time off for various reasons over the past that other companies wouldn't even dream of giving.
Most of the money that VS has in the bank is made up of advance pax sales, sales that in the event of a stike would dwindle as VS would have to give that money back. We are only as strong as the pasengers that have the confidence in us. Confidence that we will operate certain flights on certain days. We rely on a good cash flow to survive and from after attending one of the OBM meetings last week got to hear all about this, what we have in the bank and how we use this.
Do we want more? Yes of course we do Scoobydoo. Will we get it? Well I hope so. I just feel that the past few months has put all of us in a much stronger position when we go into the next round of pay talks, in 12 months time
Don't tranish everyone with the same brush in that Ivory tower Scooby, it's not fair. There are many genuine people in this company, both in the air and on the ground.
Give it 12-months and I bet the next deal starts off a lot better than this. You can't sort out all the issues with pay during one pay deal. You can however sort it out over time, which is what I think VS will do from now on.
I could be wrong and if I am then I will eat my hat.
Take care
Virgin 89
Last edited by Virgin89; 21st Oct 2007 at 20:51.
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Scoobdoo, one more thing, sorry.
Any negotiation is made up of tactics. The first deal is always going to be bad and here at Virgin we as crew always say NO to the first deal, whatever it is.
The second deal was also bad in my opinion and there was some bad comm's that came about with this deal.
Then the self funded deal came up where we had to give up too much. That was never going to get through with the crew.
This final deal I feel they have listened to us. OK there is not loads of money at the moment, however they listened to us and took out all the stuff we didn't like.
Did that please me? Yes it did.
That is why I think this is the last chance with this deal. I also think we need to trust our reps here. That's what we pay them for and I agree that this is the best deal that they could get.
I also don't want the company to crumble if I'm honest with you. I am still proud to work for VS after nearly 19 years. If I wasn't then I would leave and go work for another airline.
Anyway I'm waffling now, sorry.
Take care
Virgin 89
Any negotiation is made up of tactics. The first deal is always going to be bad and here at Virgin we as crew always say NO to the first deal, whatever it is.
The second deal was also bad in my opinion and there was some bad comm's that came about with this deal.
Then the self funded deal came up where we had to give up too much. That was never going to get through with the crew.
This final deal I feel they have listened to us. OK there is not loads of money at the moment, however they listened to us and took out all the stuff we didn't like.
Did that please me? Yes it did.
That is why I think this is the last chance with this deal. I also think we need to trust our reps here. That's what we pay them for and I agree that this is the best deal that they could get.
I also don't want the company to crumble if I'm honest with you. I am still proud to work for VS after nearly 19 years. If I wasn't then I would leave and go work for another airline.
Anyway I'm waffling now, sorry.
Take care
Virgin 89
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The Management has been clever, classic divide and conquer tactics, their not buying our sell so let’s tweak it a little and get the seniors to sell it for us instead.
Any company that doesn’t want to pay its staff a basic cost of living increase (without conditions) is a joke company and shouldn’t be in business in the first place.
BA the airline that VS so likes to belittle all of the time is 700 percent more profitable than Virgin. Why does BA do so much better commercially than Virgin?
Unlike BA, Virgin doesn’t compete on short haul routes with the Lo-Co’s in fact Virgin has been in the enviable position for some time of cherry picking the world’s most profitable longhaul airline routes – no excuse there.
BA pay their cabin crew a lot more and don’t have 10 national crew operating to India or the Far East on 350 pounds a month basic salary as Virgin do – no excuse there either.
Open skies? Fuel? Airport charges? The environment? – true they all cost a lot these days but BA pay the same.
So how can it be that our nearest rivals are so much more commercially efficient then we are, why can’t Virgin AFFORD to give us a modest increase at this time?
Ever thought the reason might be Virgin Atlantic MANAGEMENT. Are THEY doing their jobs terribly well?
The MANAGEMENT that has led Virgin into what was always going to be and always will be, a white elephant in Nigeria.
The MANAGEMENT that has leased in large numbers a gas guzzling Airbus with no technical input into that decision.
The MANAGEMENT that has largely ignored an economy class that is now failing.
The MAGAGEMENT that has recruited so many office staff that there are now more employees per aircraft than BA. How many receptionists’ do you really need?
The MANAGEMENT who work 3-4 days a week and fly once a month?
Etc…, etc….
It’s also very amusing to read Virgin Pilots coming on here and advise against a strike. The very same pilots who not so long ago were prepared to shut the airline down over pay at a more difficult time for the industry post 9/11. If like us they were getting knocked back at the bank for an extension to the Cotswolds pile or a bigger pool for their villas in the South of France they’d probably think twice, well meaning as I’m sure they are.
All the crew want is a modest pay rise to reflect how much dearer things become with each passing year.
With the turnover of crew here things will be a lot different in 2 years time. We’ll be starting from scratch again. By accepting this deal you’ll be letting management off the hook, we’re being asked to fund THEIR underperformance not ours.
This in my opinion is a very critical time for Virgin cabin crew and the eventual result will have lasting implications for our terms and conditions for years to come. They want us to feel guilty about asking for what is rightfully ours in the first place. Do you really think the Pilots will be asked to sacrifice when they get their RPI increase next year?
Virgin MANAGEMENT can prevent industrial action. They ball is firmly in THEIR court.
Any company that doesn’t want to pay its staff a basic cost of living increase (without conditions) is a joke company and shouldn’t be in business in the first place.
BA the airline that VS so likes to belittle all of the time is 700 percent more profitable than Virgin. Why does BA do so much better commercially than Virgin?
Unlike BA, Virgin doesn’t compete on short haul routes with the Lo-Co’s in fact Virgin has been in the enviable position for some time of cherry picking the world’s most profitable longhaul airline routes – no excuse there.
BA pay their cabin crew a lot more and don’t have 10 national crew operating to India or the Far East on 350 pounds a month basic salary as Virgin do – no excuse there either.
Open skies? Fuel? Airport charges? The environment? – true they all cost a lot these days but BA pay the same.
So how can it be that our nearest rivals are so much more commercially efficient then we are, why can’t Virgin AFFORD to give us a modest increase at this time?
Ever thought the reason might be Virgin Atlantic MANAGEMENT. Are THEY doing their jobs terribly well?
The MANAGEMENT that has led Virgin into what was always going to be and always will be, a white elephant in Nigeria.
The MANAGEMENT that has leased in large numbers a gas guzzling Airbus with no technical input into that decision.
The MANAGEMENT that has largely ignored an economy class that is now failing.
The MAGAGEMENT that has recruited so many office staff that there are now more employees per aircraft than BA. How many receptionists’ do you really need?
The MANAGEMENT who work 3-4 days a week and fly once a month?
Etc…, etc….
It’s also very amusing to read Virgin Pilots coming on here and advise against a strike. The very same pilots who not so long ago were prepared to shut the airline down over pay at a more difficult time for the industry post 9/11. If like us they were getting knocked back at the bank for an extension to the Cotswolds pile or a bigger pool for their villas in the South of France they’d probably think twice, well meaning as I’m sure they are.
All the crew want is a modest pay rise to reflect how much dearer things become with each passing year.
With the turnover of crew here things will be a lot different in 2 years time. We’ll be starting from scratch again. By accepting this deal you’ll be letting management off the hook, we’re being asked to fund THEIR underperformance not ours.
This in my opinion is a very critical time for Virgin cabin crew and the eventual result will have lasting implications for our terms and conditions for years to come. They want us to feel guilty about asking for what is rightfully ours in the first place. Do you really think the Pilots will be asked to sacrifice when they get their RPI increase next year?
Virgin MANAGEMENT can prevent industrial action. They ball is firmly in THEIR court.
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v89
I agree with some of what you say, not other bits. Obviously your perception of some in Ivory towers is much better than mine given your personal experiences. You are right - it's not fair to tarnish everyone with the same brush, but the latest sales technique of walking around checking "sell, sell sell" has wound me up more than the "would you like the extended warranty" sales pitch you get in comet, currys !!
Maybe that is why they have been instructed to stop trying to sell it now... I guess I am not alone in having been wound up by this.
As for asking for more %, no that's not it... I have said before what I would vote YES for and it;s not a million miles off what is on the table now.
My wish list is still...
4.8 as offered this year.
Next year RPI (however add a minimum value of x%, lets say 3.5% as the company has used this in the pay demonstration) that way if RPI drops to 1.8% next year - year 2 does not attract only a 1.8% pay rise.
Trip pay increase for Juniors and seniors needs to be increased a little I feel, as they appear to have been passed over.
Variable manning, binned - cant believe the union even started paving this road ! (edited to add - why not turn the idea on its head, listen to this , instead of when a flight has a light load and reducing the crew count to offer the same service to pax. Why not offer them a supreme service, extra pampering more attention because there are more crew members to do it - even if it just gets a few more pax next year because they told their friends of the good experience or they fly with us again !!??) -- I know it's all about cost cutting but how about looking at it from a different angle - it would be magic touches eat your heart out. That way also when a flight is variable manned and suddenly the loads increase DOH ! we are not crew down as the crew have been assigned to somethign else.
Crew down - hefty payouts - similar to BA - We are talking serious money here, now this isn't so we make more money as crew members, it's so the company employs the correct amount of crew - we would be happier on flights fully crewed and the customer experience would be better - lets face it anything to make the customer experience better - new lounges, new limos, dedicated T3 walkways to lounges, how about plain old simple enough crew to service all their needs !?
If those 4 things were changed then I would vote YES, but right now I still feel we are being sold short, but again it's my personal opinion.
Then for next years talks I would like to address;
Restructure airshare to similar as flight crew have (turnover related not profit - we are going to make nothing on this as the company reinvests in itself or Nigeria !)
Restructure Allowances to discourage swapping of trips due to different revenues in each destination. Several options, duty pay, band each destination e.g. Africa's take same as Americas, lots of different options but they are all for future discussions.
But right now I feel unless the 4 issues I mention above are catered for then its a
from me, why because RPI could go real low next year, variable manning could be worsened and crew down is getting beyond a joke upsetting more and more pax and making our lives and as an FSM that must make your life much harder too does it not ?
Oh and finally, hopefully we will be T&G led by the next deal not Brian Boyd who was beamed down from some planet and recommended the last pay deal - how the bloke can expect to receive any dignity after the crew members threw that no vote back in his face I have no idea.
what do you think of my wish list ?
I love my job but am fed up of seeing us all get steam rolled, and as I see it now it is a downward spiral. If these issues are not addressed now there will be a further downward spirral and in 2 years time we will be fighting just to get it back to how it is now... and that isnt brilliant. The management promises of better next time.. unfortunately I dont have the same faith in them as you do. It would be interesting if an external company surveyed the crews anonymously asking their opinions towards management and other things. (oh isnt that what a union is supposed to do too !!??)
I agree with some of what you say, not other bits. Obviously your perception of some in Ivory towers is much better than mine given your personal experiences. You are right - it's not fair to tarnish everyone with the same brush, but the latest sales technique of walking around checking "sell, sell sell" has wound me up more than the "would you like the extended warranty" sales pitch you get in comet, currys !!
Maybe that is why they have been instructed to stop trying to sell it now... I guess I am not alone in having been wound up by this.
As for asking for more %, no that's not it... I have said before what I would vote YES for and it;s not a million miles off what is on the table now.
My wish list is still...
4.8 as offered this year.
Next year RPI (however add a minimum value of x%, lets say 3.5% as the company has used this in the pay demonstration) that way if RPI drops to 1.8% next year - year 2 does not attract only a 1.8% pay rise.
Trip pay increase for Juniors and seniors needs to be increased a little I feel, as they appear to have been passed over.
Variable manning, binned - cant believe the union even started paving this road ! (edited to add - why not turn the idea on its head, listen to this , instead of when a flight has a light load and reducing the crew count to offer the same service to pax. Why not offer them a supreme service, extra pampering more attention because there are more crew members to do it - even if it just gets a few more pax next year because they told their friends of the good experience or they fly with us again !!??) -- I know it's all about cost cutting but how about looking at it from a different angle - it would be magic touches eat your heart out. That way also when a flight is variable manned and suddenly the loads increase DOH ! we are not crew down as the crew have been assigned to somethign else.
Crew down - hefty payouts - similar to BA - We are talking serious money here, now this isn't so we make more money as crew members, it's so the company employs the correct amount of crew - we would be happier on flights fully crewed and the customer experience would be better - lets face it anything to make the customer experience better - new lounges, new limos, dedicated T3 walkways to lounges, how about plain old simple enough crew to service all their needs !?
If those 4 things were changed then I would vote YES, but right now I still feel we are being sold short, but again it's my personal opinion.
Then for next years talks I would like to address;
Restructure airshare to similar as flight crew have (turnover related not profit - we are going to make nothing on this as the company reinvests in itself or Nigeria !)
Restructure Allowances to discourage swapping of trips due to different revenues in each destination. Several options, duty pay, band each destination e.g. Africa's take same as Americas, lots of different options but they are all for future discussions.
But right now I feel unless the 4 issues I mention above are catered for then its a
from me, why because RPI could go real low next year, variable manning could be worsened and crew down is getting beyond a joke upsetting more and more pax and making our lives and as an FSM that must make your life much harder too does it not ?Oh and finally, hopefully we will be T&G led by the next deal not Brian Boyd who was beamed down from some planet and recommended the last pay deal - how the bloke can expect to receive any dignity after the crew members threw that no vote back in his face I have no idea.
what do you think of my wish list ?
I love my job but am fed up of seeing us all get steam rolled, and as I see it now it is a downward spiral. If these issues are not addressed now there will be a further downward spirral and in 2 years time we will be fighting just to get it back to how it is now... and that isnt brilliant. The management promises of better next time.. unfortunately I dont have the same faith in them as you do. It would be interesting if an external company surveyed the crews anonymously asking their opinions towards management and other things. (oh isnt that what a union is supposed to do too !!??)
Last edited by scoobydooo; 22nd Oct 2007 at 10:16.
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Okay Scoobs, you've done it.
You've made me change my mind. I have followed thisa thread inside out and my opinion has been swayed more than once. Looking at my early posts on here I was right alongside scoobs, then as the offer increased so did my expectations. I do still have faith in the company though but
the crew down point was the real winning (or losing point) for me. My sentiments exactly. Its been a sneaky cost cutting exercise for too long.
You've made me change my mind. I have followed thisa thread inside out and my opinion has been swayed more than once. Looking at my early posts on here I was right alongside scoobs, then as the offer increased so did my expectations. I do still have faith in the company though but
the crew down point was the real winning (or losing point) for me. My sentiments exactly. Its been a sneaky cost cutting exercise for too long.
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Hi Scoobs,
Your wish list is not one that I would see as a bad thing and I do agree with you.
I also think that in time and it has to be time from where we are now your wish list will be answered.
4.8% for this year, you got that in this deal
RPI for next year, well you got that too,
Varible manning was never on the table to begin with, however I agree should form part of the next pay negs.
Crew down pay I also agree with. We need to be more rewarded for crew down as we still deliver the same service under the conditions of not having the amount of crew that we should have, so yes am 100% behind this. Again the union never brought this too the table so perhaps we should feed back to them that this is a number 1 priority in the next pay negs.
RPI is what we wanted in this deal and we got it in the end, without hardly any gives.
Your package is a good one Scooby and one that I would like to see fully implimented. For now we have some of that, so why not let's make the union see that the rest is what we want in the next deal.
The union never canvassed us to see what we want. Any union should sit down with groups of crew of all ranks to gain feedback to what their expectations are for a current deal. They never did this and did give mixed messages.
I can't tell you what to vote. It's clear what you've already most probably voted. It's your choice and you put across a very good point.
I think your wish list is acceptable and getting half of that now and working on the others to me is worth vioting yes for. It's a good company to work for, gives a good lifestyle and lets admit it we go to work 5 times per month, not on a daily basis.
I enjoy reading your posts. They are put across in a very constructive manner.
Take care
x
Your wish list is not one that I would see as a bad thing and I do agree with you.
I also think that in time and it has to be time from where we are now your wish list will be answered.
4.8% for this year, you got that in this deal
RPI for next year, well you got that too,
Varible manning was never on the table to begin with, however I agree should form part of the next pay negs.
Crew down pay I also agree with. We need to be more rewarded for crew down as we still deliver the same service under the conditions of not having the amount of crew that we should have, so yes am 100% behind this. Again the union never brought this too the table so perhaps we should feed back to them that this is a number 1 priority in the next pay negs.
RPI is what we wanted in this deal and we got it in the end, without hardly any gives.
Your package is a good one Scooby and one that I would like to see fully implimented. For now we have some of that, so why not let's make the union see that the rest is what we want in the next deal.
The union never canvassed us to see what we want. Any union should sit down with groups of crew of all ranks to gain feedback to what their expectations are for a current deal. They never did this and did give mixed messages.
I can't tell you what to vote. It's clear what you've already most probably voted. It's your choice and you put across a very good point.
I think your wish list is acceptable and getting half of that now and working on the others to me is worth vioting yes for. It's a good company to work for, gives a good lifestyle and lets admit it we go to work 5 times per month, not on a daily basis.
I enjoy reading your posts. They are put across in a very constructive manner.
Take care
x
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In the pink, I have to reply to your comments.
BA is a different model to VS. One of the main reasons that BA makes a lot more money than VS is that they have not invested, until recently with their new Club World Product, any money in new products or aircraft.
They have made their first order for A/C since 2000, where as we have made investments all the way through. We had new A/C coming into service at least twice a year, this a huge cost.
Don't get me wrong, I think there should be money in this for crew and this is not an excuse, however by not now investing in any new A/C untill 2011 this gives VS the chance to start to use the assets they have now and to spend the profits on other things, i.e crew.
Virgin have a great route network, however one that is very competative with other carriers and with return on sales being so low at the moment this is another reason that we are not making the same return that BA are.
Agree or disagree with what Management do, that is one that I am not getting into. Management in any company will always be looked on as the bad guys. In a way being an FSM I am looked on by many crew as someone to be wary of, until they get to know me.
They get to know me on long flights and long layovers, however management on the ground don't get that chance as often to get to know everyone.
I don't agree some of your comments but it's your say and how you feel, and I think it's good that eveyone has their chance to say how they feel.
Will this deal get rejected. I'm not so sure. Will it be close? yes it will, for sure. If we stike will we all be here in the same positions in a years time? No for sure. Having been here before I know what the answer is here.
Virgin pilots gave up a lot to get their deal and the facts behind this aren't what is being said on line. They gave up their airshare as well as increased their productivity by 100+ hours per month. The crew made it clear that they don't want to give up anything. Who's fault is it that there isn't more money in the pot for other things?
BA is a different model to VS. One of the main reasons that BA makes a lot more money than VS is that they have not invested, until recently with their new Club World Product, any money in new products or aircraft.
They have made their first order for A/C since 2000, where as we have made investments all the way through. We had new A/C coming into service at least twice a year, this a huge cost.
Don't get me wrong, I think there should be money in this for crew and this is not an excuse, however by not now investing in any new A/C untill 2011 this gives VS the chance to start to use the assets they have now and to spend the profits on other things, i.e crew.
Virgin have a great route network, however one that is very competative with other carriers and with return on sales being so low at the moment this is another reason that we are not making the same return that BA are.
Agree or disagree with what Management do, that is one that I am not getting into. Management in any company will always be looked on as the bad guys. In a way being an FSM I am looked on by many crew as someone to be wary of, until they get to know me.
They get to know me on long flights and long layovers, however management on the ground don't get that chance as often to get to know everyone.
I don't agree some of your comments but it's your say and how you feel, and I think it's good that eveyone has their chance to say how they feel.
Will this deal get rejected. I'm not so sure. Will it be close? yes it will, for sure. If we stike will we all be here in the same positions in a years time? No for sure. Having been here before I know what the answer is here.
Virgin pilots gave up a lot to get their deal and the facts behind this aren't what is being said on line. They gave up their airshare as well as increased their productivity by 100+ hours per month. The crew made it clear that they don't want to give up anything. Who's fault is it that there isn't more money in the pot for other things?
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thanks v89
One thing though.....
The bit in bold (I made it bold) The union did bring this up, if you read their letters sent with previous offers and advice to reject earlier offers one of the reasons quoted was because the company had failed to action "crew down" payments especially the 1 crew down scenario - the most common. This has still not been actioned.
really must go to bed now
One thing though.....
Crew down pay I also agree with. We need to be more rewarded for crew down as we still deliver the same service under the conditions of not having the amount of crew that we should have, so yes am 100% behind this. Again the union never brought this too the table so perhaps we should feed back to them that this is a number 1 priority in the next pay negs.
really must go to bed now
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Hi Virgin89
BA as you say haven't invested in aircraft for a few years but they have just invested 350 million quid in Terminal 5 and revamped Club World. DESPITE that investment their profit on turnover last year was 7.2% and their on target for 10 percent yes 10 percent this year. We are just about breaking even and MANAGEMENT is telling us that is going to be a tough few years ahead.
As for Virgin spending their profits "on other things"...THEIR IS NO PROFIT!!
Our managers are perfectly affable people (the ones I've met), I certainly don't think their "bad guys" but what has that got to do with anything? The companies financial performance is in their hands, they get paid a lot to manage that financial performance and frankly in comparision to BA its shocking.
The MANAGEMENT know the price of everything and the value of nothing. The amount of priceless goodwill twords the company, goodwill that has gotten the airline out of a hole several times in the past has been lost with a lot of my colleagues, and all for what....?
I'll say it again, I don't feel guilty about not accepting what in effect is a pay cut. All is want is a modest increase to reflect how much more expensive life becomes with each passing year.
The pilots gave up NOTHING. They earn 50% more now than they did post 9/11. Their airshare has a different badge these days but they still get a profitability payment for every hour they spend in the aircraft. The majority of our pilots work 750 hours, 150 hours a year less than the industry standard. And good on them I say, they stuck together, toughed it out and guess what Virgin didn't go bust.
MANAGEMENT can prevent a strike. The ball is firmly in their court.
BA as you say haven't invested in aircraft for a few years but they have just invested 350 million quid in Terminal 5 and revamped Club World. DESPITE that investment their profit on turnover last year was 7.2% and their on target for 10 percent yes 10 percent this year. We are just about breaking even and MANAGEMENT is telling us that is going to be a tough few years ahead.
As for Virgin spending their profits "on other things"...THEIR IS NO PROFIT!!
Our managers are perfectly affable people (the ones I've met), I certainly don't think their "bad guys" but what has that got to do with anything? The companies financial performance is in their hands, they get paid a lot to manage that financial performance and frankly in comparision to BA its shocking.
The MANAGEMENT know the price of everything and the value of nothing. The amount of priceless goodwill twords the company, goodwill that has gotten the airline out of a hole several times in the past has been lost with a lot of my colleagues, and all for what....?
I'll say it again, I don't feel guilty about not accepting what in effect is a pay cut. All is want is a modest increase to reflect how much more expensive life becomes with each passing year.
The pilots gave up NOTHING. They earn 50% more now than they did post 9/11. Their airshare has a different badge these days but they still get a profitability payment for every hour they spend in the aircraft. The majority of our pilots work 750 hours, 150 hours a year less than the industry standard. And good on them I say, they stuck together, toughed it out and guess what Virgin didn't go bust.
MANAGEMENT can prevent a strike. The ball is firmly in their court.
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Stop accusing each other of being 'Management' and 'stooges' and so forth - you don't know the truth on an anonymous forum, and make yourselves look foolish by assuming that you do.
Further posts of this nature will be deleted.
Further posts of this nature will be deleted.
... not long till ballot results....... get those forms sent back if you havent already.
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12 Noon Thursday 1st November - 1 week today. Wonder if they may extend it due to postal strikes on the chance that some people may still not have received the forms or they may not be received back in time.
I would urge anyone that has not received the form and wishes to express a preference to contact the union. I know I still have not has some items received that were sent weeks ago, fortunately I did get my form voting form though.
The last thing we would want is for the union/ company to say the outcome didn't count as not all votes were received due to postal delays and have to re-ballot for the same offer.
Any reps out there care to comment ?
I would urge anyone that has not received the form and wishes to express a preference to contact the union. I know I still have not has some items received that were sent weeks ago, fortunately I did get my form voting form though.
The last thing we would want is for the union/ company to say the outcome didn't count as not all votes were received due to postal delays and have to re-ballot for the same offer.
Any reps out there care to comment ?
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I finally got round to returning my completed form today & after a lot of deliberation! I'd urge everyone else to do the same.
It feels great to finally have confidence in my conviction!
Heres to the results on the 1st!
It feels great to finally have confidence in my conviction!
Heres to the results on the 1st!
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The strike started this morning. There is a 70-80% of CC on strike. Many flights canceled (70% in ORY and CDG) or delayed. Flights departing with the minimum required number of CC. It seems that they are using up all the CC Instructors today, the situation should be much worse tomorrow when this resource has run dry. The pilots (some of their Unions) issued a statement supporting the CC. Some Captains have refused to depart if too many CC were missing (even if within the legal number) or with Pursers flying as Cabin Service Managers, or CC flying as Pursers.
The French media observe a strict blackout about the strike, but they won't be able to do so for long because the disruption is really massive.
6 PM update:
80% on strike
298 flights canceled
Blimey! A day in the life at VAA
The above is taken from the Air France Strike Thread.
The French media observe a strict blackout about the strike, but they won't be able to do so for long because the disruption is really massive.
6 PM update:
80% on strike
298 flights canceled
Blimey! A day in the life at VAA
The above is taken from the Air France Strike Thread.