Virgin - Crew Discussions II
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Brighton
Age: 52
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Who do we work for?
I am amazed what lengths this company will go to
We rip of our passengers by agreeing to fix a fuel surcharge with British Airways, we then dob em in. Our chairman is now exiled abroad working out ways to rip the tax man off. And while this goes on he continues to rip us off with the pay. I did not realise just how greedy Virgin are.
We rip of our passengers by agreeing to fix a fuel surcharge with British Airways, we then dob em in. Our chairman is now exiled abroad working out ways to rip the tax man off. And while this goes on he continues to rip us off with the pay. I did not realise just how greedy Virgin are.
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Are they in a panic?
Just arrived on email
The company have asked for us to go along to a series of meetings next week so they can explain the latest proposal. It seems like they just want to speak to the FSM's and CSS's but we think everyone should be invited.
We believe this move shows how desperate they are and this is a clear sign of the weakness in their position. Please join us next week to go and deliver a very clear message that anything less than the deal outlined below will result in another massive rejection and subsequent action
Two year deal
FSM £28000
CSS £22000
SFA, CC and IFBT 10% over two years
Increases to trip pay and crew down with no concessions
OR WE STRIKE
wedeservemoremoney.com
The company have asked for us to go along to a series of meetings next week so they can explain the latest proposal. It seems like they just want to speak to the FSM's and CSS's but we think everyone should be invited.
We believe this move shows how desperate they are and this is a clear sign of the weakness in their position. Please join us next week to go and deliver a very clear message that anything less than the deal outlined below will result in another massive rejection and subsequent action
Two year deal
FSM £28000
CSS £22000
SFA, CC and IFBT 10% over two years
Increases to trip pay and crew down with no concessions
OR WE STRIKE
wedeservemoremoney.com
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Brighton
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Panic
I have just had a text saying that Richard was coming to these meetings to deny the existence of his offshore slush fund and to plead poverty to the crew.
A friend of mine works in the tax office that deals with our accounts and she is quite upfront with their concerns of how money is leaking out of Virgin. Has anyone sent Singapore airlines a link to this thread from WDMM? I am sure they would be very keen to look at this
A friend of mine works in the tax office that deals with our accounts and she is quite upfront with their concerns of how money is leaking out of Virgin. Has anyone sent Singapore airlines a link to this thread from WDMM? I am sure they would be very keen to look at this
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Manchester
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Singapore
The WDMM guys have been talking to David Gonski who works for Singapore in the accounts dept, he contacted them so that should be interesting to hear what he comes back.
If Richard turns up then they must be be getting a bit panicky.
If Richard turns up then they must be be getting a bit panicky.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: uk
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Will be interesting to see the outcome if the meetings are scheduled. I have been looking back into the flight crew strike threat a few years back, I have to say the requests were pretty steep, makes what the cabin crew want look like a walk in the park. Historical news article below, a search on google brings up loads, they only wanted a rise to be brought in line with their counterparts at BA... isnt that what the cabin crew want too.
Feb 2001
SIR RICHARD Branson's Virgin Atlantic airline faces strike action after 95 per cent of its pilots rejected a pay offer.
Sir Richard, anxious to avoid cancellations by passengers seeking to avoid industrial action, intervened personally but failed to persuade flight crew to accept a 5 per cent pay rise.
An internal memo reveals that Virgin tried to ensure that news of the strike threat did not leak out. The confidential letter warned that the business would be damaged and Virgin's image tarnished if passengers "get wind of potential disruption".
Virgin management will make a final attempt to reach a deal on Monday but members of the British Airline Pilots' Association (Balpa) said there would need to be a significant improvement in the pay offer. The union, which recently secured recognition by Virgin, is preparing for a ballot on industrial action if there is no breakthrough.
Pilots want a two-year deal worth 12 per cent above inflation and a 3.5 per cent boost to pensions. Pilots' representatives argue that Virgin's flight crew are paid 25 per cent less than their colleagues at British Airways, where senior captains earn more than pounds 100,000 a year.
The letter, by Malcolm Wagstaff, Virgin Atlantic's flight operations director, conceded that the airline was "not a market leader" for pay but said it could not afford a bigger rise. "The commercial damage ... starts from the moment customers get wind of a potential for disruption," he wrote. "Our reputation and image, as well as opportunities for growth and stability, will be jeopardised."
Copyright 2001 Independent Newspapers UK Limited
Provided by ProQuest Information and Learning Company. All rights Reserved.
SIR RICHARD Branson's Virgin Atlantic airline faces strike action after 95 per cent of its pilots rejected a pay offer.
Sir Richard, anxious to avoid cancellations by passengers seeking to avoid industrial action, intervened personally but failed to persuade flight crew to accept a 5 per cent pay rise.
An internal memo reveals that Virgin tried to ensure that news of the strike threat did not leak out. The confidential letter warned that the business would be damaged and Virgin's image tarnished if passengers "get wind of potential disruption".
Virgin management will make a final attempt to reach a deal on Monday but members of the British Airline Pilots' Association (Balpa) said there would need to be a significant improvement in the pay offer. The union, which recently secured recognition by Virgin, is preparing for a ballot on industrial action if there is no breakthrough.
Pilots want a two-year deal worth 12 per cent above inflation and a 3.5 per cent boost to pensions. Pilots' representatives argue that Virgin's flight crew are paid 25 per cent less than their colleagues at British Airways, where senior captains earn more than pounds 100,000 a year.
The letter, by Malcolm Wagstaff, Virgin Atlantic's flight operations director, conceded that the airline was "not a market leader" for pay but said it could not afford a bigger rise. "The commercial damage ... starts from the moment customers get wind of a potential for disruption," he wrote. "Our reputation and image, as well as opportunities for growth and stability, will be jeopardised."
Copyright 2001 Independent Newspapers UK Limited
Provided by ProQuest Information and Learning Company. All rights Reserved.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: soon to be grounded
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Why I'm striking...!
Though one is not happy about striking I'm finding that the company is putting me in a position where I have to. (Flying for 14 years and now a CSS) I'm sick of turning up for flights and being crew down...no, no, no, I'm not interested in the £10, £20 for crew down I just want a full compliment of crew. What is wrong with that.....? Of course the Company have been getting away with this for years..Why.? because they could...! Our managers have targets to reach and a big bonus to collect by not putting crew on flights, saving on allowances down route and hotel beds and save weight. (sorry had to that one in). If a flight with two crew down can work.. of course under pressure but the customers get off happy and safety not compromised then why not. Its good for business but unfortunately not good for me or my colleagues.
Just had my pension forecast for when I'm 65 £6,500 "OH Dear...!" Why.. because I'm just pensioned on my basic pay...not flight pay and of course not down route allowances because thats to feed us. (which most people forget) Yes I'm one of them who has to save my allowances because I have a mortgage to pay. So I'm not really looking after myself and having to cut corners on food.
You may ask why does this dolly put up with this and leave Virgin..? I love my job, I get to travel, meet different people each time I'm come to work and have some time to lay in the sun. Of course this all comes with a price...Poor pay, jet lag and bad health but every job has a price to pay what ever they do.
My partner works for BA and holds the same position as me who is payed almost twice as much as me. Although Richard Branson thinks Virgin is better than BA, I have to agree traveling BA first and business class a lot. You start to think if BA is paying their staff X, and Pilots X (who earn more than Virgin pilots) and are making 7% profit margin. Where is Virgin's money going....? not on cabin crew thats for sure...!
Anyway I'm not talking about profits I'm talking about me and my colleagues who have had enough of poor pay, crew down and cut backs.
We as Virgin crew are now standing together for once which has taken a long time, we are not kids anymore we have homes, families to think about and of course our future.
I think I'm speaking for many crew now who just want a fairly good wage, good working environment and who can give a good product to our customers.
Regards Dolly
Just had my pension forecast for when I'm 65 £6,500 "OH Dear...!" Why.. because I'm just pensioned on my basic pay...not flight pay and of course not down route allowances because thats to feed us. (which most people forget) Yes I'm one of them who has to save my allowances because I have a mortgage to pay. So I'm not really looking after myself and having to cut corners on food.
You may ask why does this dolly put up with this and leave Virgin..? I love my job, I get to travel, meet different people each time I'm come to work and have some time to lay in the sun. Of course this all comes with a price...Poor pay, jet lag and bad health but every job has a price to pay what ever they do.
My partner works for BA and holds the same position as me who is payed almost twice as much as me. Although Richard Branson thinks Virgin is better than BA, I have to agree traveling BA first and business class a lot. You start to think if BA is paying their staff X, and Pilots X (who earn more than Virgin pilots) and are making 7% profit margin. Where is Virgin's money going....? not on cabin crew thats for sure...!
Anyway I'm not talking about profits I'm talking about me and my colleagues who have had enough of poor pay, crew down and cut backs.
We as Virgin crew are now standing together for once which has taken a long time, we are not kids anymore we have homes, families to think about and of course our future.
I think I'm speaking for many crew now who just want a fairly good wage, good working environment and who can give a good product to our customers.
Regards Dolly
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Horley
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Why I voted NO!
Virgin Dolly I have to agree with everything you say.
I too am a CSS & have worked for VAA for 10 years now. This is my 3rd airline and joined Virgin under no illusions that the pay was less than my previous employers...I joined for the lifestyle! However, my lifestyle has changed somewhat within the last 10 years & I feel that as a supervisor with a total of 15 years flying & life experience, this should reflect in my salary!
It is easy for people to say "why don't you leave if you're not happy" but its not that simple. I love my job and I've worked hard to get to the position I'm in...why should I be forced to leave? Who would take my job?
I would've been happy with the 4.8% on the last pay offer, but like so many of my colleagues was put off with losing a ccm on A346, extra block of STBY & losing airshare etc etc...that is why I voted NO!
I, like many others, now feel like I am getting the piss taken out of me with stupid offers. Morale is low with crew which makes my job all the harder when you're trying to motivate discruntled staff. This needs to be sorted out soon before all our pax start to leave too...then where will we be?
I don't want to strike, I just want a fair pay offer...is that too much to ask?
I too am a CSS & have worked for VAA for 10 years now. This is my 3rd airline and joined Virgin under no illusions that the pay was less than my previous employers...I joined for the lifestyle! However, my lifestyle has changed somewhat within the last 10 years & I feel that as a supervisor with a total of 15 years flying & life experience, this should reflect in my salary!
It is easy for people to say "why don't you leave if you're not happy" but its not that simple. I love my job and I've worked hard to get to the position I'm in...why should I be forced to leave? Who would take my job?
I would've been happy with the 4.8% on the last pay offer, but like so many of my colleagues was put off with losing a ccm on A346, extra block of STBY & losing airshare etc etc...that is why I voted NO!
I, like many others, now feel like I am getting the piss taken out of me with stupid offers. Morale is low with crew which makes my job all the harder when you're trying to motivate discruntled staff. This needs to be sorted out soon before all our pax start to leave too...then where will we be?
I don't want to strike, I just want a fair pay offer...is that too much to ask?
Join Date: Mar 2007
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No-one has been balloted yet as Management are spending this week talking to FSMs and trying to gauge where they went wrong.
On that note, has anyone spoken to anyone who has attended?
I think a strike is unlikely!
On that note, has anyone spoken to anyone who has attended?
I think a strike is unlikely!
Join Date: Aug 2007
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What do CSS/FSM's think about this communication to their virgin email account asking them to come in and hear what management have to say about the paydeal ?
There is a part of me which is suspect - I would of expected a communication from the union first about the outcome of the pay talks - this seems a little odd - or am I too untrusting and full of scepticism. I can only interpret this as the pay talks did not go in the companies favour.
Dear FSM/CSS,
......Virgin Atlantic Management and Amicus/Unite met on the 20th/25th September to try and work out a deal that incorporates the feedback that we have been hearing from all the crew and one that is affordable to the business.
We would like to be able to update you face to face and invite you to join
a group of FSM/CSS colleagues and members of the Cabin Services Management team. Communication of any potential settlement is fundamental in moving this situation forward to an acceptable conclusion.
Anyone attending will receive an off-line allowance and the expertise
payment of £xx ......
Warm regards
Dave Henning
Cabin Crew Manager
There is a part of me which is suspect - I would of expected a communication from the union first about the outcome of the pay talks - this seems a little odd - or am I too untrusting and full of scepticism. I can only interpret this as the pay talks did not go in the companies favour.
Dear FSM/CSS,
......Virgin Atlantic Management and Amicus/Unite met on the 20th/25th September to try and work out a deal that incorporates the feedback that we have been hearing from all the crew and one that is affordable to the business.
We would like to be able to update you face to face and invite you to join
a group of FSM/CSS colleagues and members of the Cabin Services Management team. Communication of any potential settlement is fundamental in moving this situation forward to an acceptable conclusion.
Anyone attending will receive an off-line allowance and the expertise
payment of £xx ......
Warm regards
Dave Henning
Cabin Crew Manager
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Re: Bleat!
Forgive me for being "a clone" but I thought that the 900 hour rule applied to all airlines! Would that mean that BA are allowed by the CAA to do only 900 hours per year...the same as Virgin!! Pro-rata, we all work the same amount of hours. Let me know if I'm wrong on this one!
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Me too. Dolly made some valid points, forget the pilots (different job), what about what she said about her other half being a purser and getting paid double!
Last edited by sign-it-to-your-room; 26th Sep 2007 at 18:52.
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I was chatting to a BTS on the crew bus this morning and she said a new pay offer is to be annouced today! She said it's much better than the last one and they've removed a lot of the conditions that were attached to it, but she couldn't go into detail just in case things were changed at the last minute!
Keep checking iFly
Keep checking iFly
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Well the offers are improving but unfortunately this doesnt cut it for me
Just read the latest offer, following on from striker..
I believe in Brian Boyd's last statement he said that any improved offer would be accompanied with a strike ballot - this has changed as he now says that a failure to accept this offer (which once again they are recommending - like the last one) will result in the crew being balloted to participate in industrial action - "you will receive your ballot paper in a separate communication" - why has he changed his mind ?
.... I suppose this is to miss any threat of striking over half term !
Now why is Brian Boyd communicating Via Ifly - does he now work for Virgin or something ? You would think so the sort of offers he is recommending and highly recommending.... if this is rejected what would he say about the next offer, "I really really very strongly recommend this one" !
Disappointed in this offer when do T&G take control and Mr Boyd get replaced - sure virgin have a job for him
expected outcome - 60-40 rejection due to the extra month of standby.
Just read the latest offer, following on from striker..
- 2 year deal
- 4.8% increase in year 1
- RPI in year 2
- Trip pay scales £5 a trip extra per year for CSS's and FSM's £2.10 for seniors reducing for other roles
- FSM's offered part time contracts
- Ability to swap standby month with other crew member
- Pay and trip pay backdated to April, the original date
- give extra month of standby
- Apply for entire annual leave in one hit
- give up guaranteed weekend in standby month (you can request 2 days but they may not be granted)
I believe in Brian Boyd's last statement he said that any improved offer would be accompanied with a strike ballot - this has changed as he now says that a failure to accept this offer (which once again they are recommending - like the last one) will result in the crew being balloted to participate in industrial action - "you will receive your ballot paper in a separate communication" - why has he changed his mind ?
.... I suppose this is to miss any threat of striking over half term !
Now why is Brian Boyd communicating Via Ifly - does he now work for Virgin or something ? You would think so the sort of offers he is recommending and highly recommending.... if this is rejected what would he say about the next offer, "I really really very strongly recommend this one" !
Disappointed in this offer when do T&G take control and Mr Boyd get replaced - sure virgin have a job for him
expected outcome - 60-40 rejection due to the extra month of standby.
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Answers to Rumours
Hi guys,
not posted here before but just been speaking in detail with someone quite high up re: pay deal. Just to answer some of the quiries already surfacing:
4.8% rise in basic back dated to April 1st
RPI rise in basic next year. (estimated 3.5%)
5 months of standby in 3 yrs (one's you've already done still count)
1 month is a stability block
You can request days off in ALL standby months (If these are granted they are guaranteed, if they are not you get 2 other guaranteed days off)
Crew down would be increased by 4.8% (This is covered in the pay deal documents as 4.8% rise on all variable elements)
No change to airshare.
Crew compliment to remain the same on A346.
Just in case you're wondering I don't work in the office, I'm, crew, and i've voted no all along so far but always taken time to get the full picture. It just seems this time the company has started to listen. They are giving us the previous deal with no strings attached which as far as I can tell when talking to crew downroute is what we've been after. Hope this helps.
not posted here before but just been speaking in detail with someone quite high up re: pay deal. Just to answer some of the quiries already surfacing:
4.8% rise in basic back dated to April 1st
RPI rise in basic next year. (estimated 3.5%)
5 months of standby in 3 yrs (one's you've already done still count)
1 month is a stability block
You can request days off in ALL standby months (If these are granted they are guaranteed, if they are not you get 2 other guaranteed days off)
Crew down would be increased by 4.8% (This is covered in the pay deal documents as 4.8% rise on all variable elements)
No change to airshare.
Crew compliment to remain the same on A346.
Just in case you're wondering I don't work in the office, I'm, crew, and i've voted no all along so far but always taken time to get the full picture. It just seems this time the company has started to listen. They are giving us the previous deal with no strings attached which as far as I can tell when talking to crew downroute is what we've been after. Hope this helps.
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Also forgot to mention;
The way part time contracts are given will stay the same for everyone except that any FSM that has been in FSM rank for 10 or more years will be automatically entitled to apply for 70% or 50% contracts. As far as I can see this can only be good for us as more room at the top for promotions.
The way part time contracts are given will stay the same for everyone except that any FSM that has been in FSM rank for 10 or more years will be automatically entitled to apply for 70% or 50% contracts. As far as I can see this can only be good for us as more room at the top for promotions.
Join Date: Aug 2007
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VirginBull I totally agree with your points, at last a serious offer, now if the company had started here they would have so much more respect from the crew instead we have taken 5 months to get to the first sensible offer. But we must look forward and not back right, so my take on this is - this is the first sensible offer - from here we move forward with negotiations.
I hear what you are saying re standby and request for 2 days off - last time they wanted to add another month of standby and remove guaranteed weekend off - in effect this is what is in this offer just worded differently - lets be realistic - I cant seem them granting peoples request for DO over the weekend, that's when sickness is highest and they need most standby cover and that's why they are trying to get rid of it, therefore I totally believe that once we give up the guaranteed weekend on a SB month it will be lost forever.
My error on crew down payment, so they will increase 4.8% too - WOW so that's worth about how much extra....!!
As for crew compliment staying the same on the A346 - this isn't something extra - it was a bloody cheek for them to suggest it in the last offer anyway - a bit like saying and when you get promoted we will pay you your new wage from the day you are promoted - its not them giving anything its just them not trying to take something else away like in the forst offer.
Again, this is by far the best offer so far, now lets start some serious negotiations.
I hear what you are saying re standby and request for 2 days off - last time they wanted to add another month of standby and remove guaranteed weekend off - in effect this is what is in this offer just worded differently - lets be realistic - I cant seem them granting peoples request for DO over the weekend, that's when sickness is highest and they need most standby cover and that's why they are trying to get rid of it, therefore I totally believe that once we give up the guaranteed weekend on a SB month it will be lost forever.
My error on crew down payment, so they will increase 4.8% too - WOW so that's worth about how much extra....!!
As for crew compliment staying the same on the A346 - this isn't something extra - it was a bloody cheek for them to suggest it in the last offer anyway - a bit like saying and when you get promoted we will pay you your new wage from the day you are promoted - its not them giving anything its just them not trying to take something else away like in the forst offer.
Again, this is by far the best offer so far, now lets start some serious negotiations.