View Poll Results: Virgin Blue Crew - Did You vote to accept (Yes) or decline (No) the EBA
YES
16
28.07%
NO
41
71.93%
Voters: 57. This poll is closed
Virgin Blue EBA II (Poll)
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Age: 64
Posts: 3,586
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No - edit your own posts before posting (and that goes for all of you) - mods have better things to do - edit them to avoid personal attacks, petty vendettas, abuse and pointless profanity: Edit them for relevancy and readability while you're at it.
With 4 posts deleted and 1 user banned, this thread is headed down the tubes rapidly - suggest that you all clean up your acts, or the thread will be closed.
With 4 posts deleted and 1 user banned, this thread is headed down the tubes rapidly - suggest that you all clean up your acts, or the thread will be closed.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Brettslave, friend,
I have taken in your analogy and would like to support your argument but at this stage I only understand one of your reasonings:
Substandard Accommodation-there’s an Accommodation Standard listed in your EBA, the cockroach problem could be fought if you all complain to your union (you’ll probably need more than 1 person to complain but there’s possibly 991 others who would help)
Overnight Allowance-$40 per overnight in 2000 and now governed by ATO rulings to around $90 (where is the miscalculation? or why does it not cover expenses?)
Level 2 wages-increased from $35987(2000) to $46438(8 years on) and on top of this you add bonuses and overtime (based on the ABS model you put forward), $740 yearly productivity payment, approx $1000 rest break payments, approx $5000 for additional hours above your salary, approx $10000 in overnight allowances tax free less costs(say half)=$58178. Is this close to the income total for level 2? You’d need to get the March 2008 ABS figures to compare or recalculate and compare the ABS model against your 2005/06 income.
Crew meals-can’t find any reference to them in your first agreement or the second or third. Is there another agreement about these somewhere?
1 less crew member-CASA's exemption and they only care about the evacuation ratio. Did CASA include your union’s input? Would you all be prepared to support your union and lobby CASA? Pilots could help you lobby because if FA’s are exhausted then pilots are not ably assisted during an evacuation. Have other pilots offered to help you build your case? The union from their website is working to improve your service workload.
Extra sector-in 2000 your rostering limit was 9 hours and 30 minutes and this increased by 15 minutes in 2003 for domestic single duties (on my enquiry for you this limit didn’t apply to long haul duty limits). The new EBA increases the rostering limit to 12 hours (which could cover some long haul duty limits) and in some circumstances reduces it below 9 hours 45 minutes.
When you wake up under the new EBA, you’ll have had an extra 1 or 2 hours sleep, so I can’t see the reduction.
Perhaps list from 1 to 10 what has reduced over the last 8 years. Maybe start with $ amounts and then list all the conditions which have been chipped away. If ATO rulings aren’t high enough, then you'll more than likely need to state exactly why FA’s at Virgin Blue need a higher amount than ATO rulings than other Australian workers.
I have taken in your analogy and would like to support your argument but at this stage I only understand one of your reasonings:
Substandard Accommodation-there’s an Accommodation Standard listed in your EBA, the cockroach problem could be fought if you all complain to your union (you’ll probably need more than 1 person to complain but there’s possibly 991 others who would help)
Overnight Allowance-$40 per overnight in 2000 and now governed by ATO rulings to around $90 (where is the miscalculation? or why does it not cover expenses?)
Level 2 wages-increased from $35987(2000) to $46438(8 years on) and on top of this you add bonuses and overtime (based on the ABS model you put forward), $740 yearly productivity payment, approx $1000 rest break payments, approx $5000 for additional hours above your salary, approx $10000 in overnight allowances tax free less costs(say half)=$58178. Is this close to the income total for level 2? You’d need to get the March 2008 ABS figures to compare or recalculate and compare the ABS model against your 2005/06 income.
Crew meals-can’t find any reference to them in your first agreement or the second or third. Is there another agreement about these somewhere?
1 less crew member-CASA's exemption and they only care about the evacuation ratio. Did CASA include your union’s input? Would you all be prepared to support your union and lobby CASA? Pilots could help you lobby because if FA’s are exhausted then pilots are not ably assisted during an evacuation. Have other pilots offered to help you build your case? The union from their website is working to improve your service workload.
Extra sector-in 2000 your rostering limit was 9 hours and 30 minutes and this increased by 15 minutes in 2003 for domestic single duties (on my enquiry for you this limit didn’t apply to long haul duty limits). The new EBA increases the rostering limit to 12 hours (which could cover some long haul duty limits) and in some circumstances reduces it below 9 hours 45 minutes.
When you wake up under the new EBA, you’ll have had an extra 1 or 2 hours sleep, so I can’t see the reduction.
Perhaps list from 1 to 10 what has reduced over the last 8 years. Maybe start with $ amounts and then list all the conditions which have been chipped away. If ATO rulings aren’t high enough, then you'll more than likely need to state exactly why FA’s at Virgin Blue need a higher amount than ATO rulings than other Australian workers.
Registered User **
Join Date: May 2005
Location: The Ultimate Crew Rest....
Age: 69
Posts: 2,346
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ol Shep...give it a rest ......the EBA was voted down by nearly 90%.
This means that there must have been something fundamentally wrong with the proposal or the result would be have been different.
The result means that the proposed EBA was rejected and now a new one has to be considered.
This means that there must have been something fundamentally wrong with the proposal or the result would be have been different.
The result means that the proposed EBA was rejected and now a new one has to be considered.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Brettslave was talking about how wages and conditions have worsened. If you want a better deal than the one that was rejected, then you'll need to lay out on the table accurate reasonings. The ABS model is good, build from there.
Maybe Tightslot could start a new thread, EBA II (reconstruct)?
Maybe Tightslot could start a new thread, EBA II (reconstruct)?
Last edited by Ol Shep; 7th Apr 2007 at 05:49.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: all over the shop
Posts: 986
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Ol Shep
new EBA increases the rostering limit to 12 hours (which could cover some long haul duty limits)
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Brisbane
Age: 51
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
O'l shep, I think you may have misunderstood my analogy. It was not litteral, I was only trying to illustrate a decline in FA conditions over the last 10 years. You cannot include overnight allowances in your wage, as you are meant to spend this on your overnights. Overnight allowances are compensation for having to live out of a suitcase. That is why it is not taxed. So therefore we are getting less than the average wage.
Anyway I think everyone has realised we won't get anywhere arguing about petty items. We collectively were not happy with this EBA, let's collectively fight for what we believe we deserve. I hope the FAAA will help us achieve the best we possibly can. A 98% no vote give them some negotiating power at least. It's time for them to show us what they can do.
Inflation is 3.4% and forecast to rise by many analysts, if we don't get at least 4% pay rise before tax we are going backwards and the company is getting cheaper labour from us each year.
Stand firm Team.
Anyway I think everyone has realised we won't get anywhere arguing about petty items. We collectively were not happy with this EBA, let's collectively fight for what we believe we deserve. I hope the FAAA will help us achieve the best we possibly can. A 98% no vote give them some negotiating power at least. It's time for them to show us what they can do.
Inflation is 3.4% and forecast to rise by many analysts, if we don't get at least 4% pay rise before tax we are going backwards and the company is getting cheaper labour from us each year.
Stand firm Team.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Over to you
ABS refer to cash earnings so need to add all other income on top of wages to get an accurate comparison.
737 & EMB can and will no doubt fly international/long haul routes as stated in press releases and as per the scope of your current EBA.
Allowances and conditions aren't petty items, they collectively add up to your total EBA package, each one has to be bargained separately with backing for your argument.
Assistance offered has been from senior labour economists with expertise in employment contracts. Anyway, you are all obviously educated and it's clear you don't want any further info. All the best.
737 & EMB can and will no doubt fly international/long haul routes as stated in press releases and as per the scope of your current EBA.
Allowances and conditions aren't petty items, they collectively add up to your total EBA package, each one has to be bargained separately with backing for your argument.
Assistance offered has been from senior labour economists with expertise in employment contracts. Anyway, you are all obviously educated and it's clear you don't want any further info. All the best.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: all over the shop
Posts: 986
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Ol Shep
737 & EMB can and will no doubt fly international/long haul routes as stated in press releases
And for the record, no one here has refuted the offer of help - all they have done is provided rebuttals in a debate - often against points which were badly/incorrectly made in the first place.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ol Shep,
you wrote :
Didn't you say you are a pilot? Why is it wrong for someone with a different opinion to yours to voice it?
Give it up!
you wrote :
Avery, keeping an eye out is important but at the right time, pilots need to step back and refer their FA's to the experts.
Give it up!
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Vista, no problem to voicing opinions. Sharing or passing on qualified advice can be useful, particularly during new, complex and largely untested new laws. We're all in this together. As the FA's on this thread posed questions to me, I got in contact with trusted advisors who helped me research for the FA's (who are friends and colleagues) and then posted info. Brettslave has led the way, move on, so it's over to the FA's now to stand firm on what they want, time to step back and leave it to them. If they want qualification on the laws or contracts, over to them.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: QLD, Australia
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
First of all Happy Easter All!
Second- I'm lost with "CEBA and NEBA??"
I have just completed, in quite a rush, the EBA survey. I noted several things i disliked but wish I had more time to address.
I think it was rather silly to have the survey only open for seven days and namely over the Easter break- I only found out about the survey this evening and it closes tonight!
Hopefully my feedback will count for something though. what did everyone else write as feedback? I wrote how I felt then went back and deleted all the emotion to keep it professional, and consturctive.
Had an interesting conversation with Pac-blue cc whilst on my getaway, does anyone know more about thier work rules/conditions? Not that they have a choice in work rules as they are contract I believe. And a small enough base (80-150? NZ) to email roster requests like the good ol' days.
And has anything else been going on re EBA in my absence? ..besides the juicey posts I've been reading about!!
I'm not back at work yet....
EBA Babylon xo
Second- I'm lost with "CEBA and NEBA??"
I have just completed, in quite a rush, the EBA survey. I noted several things i disliked but wish I had more time to address.
I think it was rather silly to have the survey only open for seven days and namely over the Easter break- I only found out about the survey this evening and it closes tonight!
Hopefully my feedback will count for something though. what did everyone else write as feedback? I wrote how I felt then went back and deleted all the emotion to keep it professional, and consturctive.
Had an interesting conversation with Pac-blue cc whilst on my getaway, does anyone know more about thier work rules/conditions? Not that they have a choice in work rules as they are contract I believe. And a small enough base (80-150? NZ) to email roster requests like the good ol' days.
And has anything else been going on re EBA in my absence? ..besides the juicey posts I've been reading about!!
I'm not back at work yet....EBA Babylon xo
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Brisbane
Age: 51
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Over to my collegues
O' shep said:
As I now firmly believe and as Tight Slot said, we shouldn't get into arguments about petty items. When someone says something do your own reasearch and you'll find out what is right. Don't believe arguments on face value and that goes for what everyone says for and against the EBA. I think I proved that with CCguys line of arguing. I could go on proving that with evidence but what's the use.
Stand firm and I hope no one held back on the surveys
ABS refer to cash earnings so need to add all other income on top of wages to get an accurate comparison.
737 & EMB can and will no doubt fly international/long haul routes as stated in press releases and as per the scope of your current EBA.
Allowances and conditions aren't petty items, they collectively add up to your total EBA package, each one has to be bargained separately with backing for your argument.
Assistance offered has been from senior labour economists with expertise in employment contracts. Anyway, you are all obviously educated and it's clear you don't want any further info. All the best.
737 & EMB can and will no doubt fly international/long haul routes as stated in press releases and as per the scope of your current EBA.
Allowances and conditions aren't petty items, they collectively add up to your total EBA package, each one has to be bargained separately with backing for your argument.
Assistance offered has been from senior labour economists with expertise in employment contracts. Anyway, you are all obviously educated and it's clear you don't want any further info. All the best.
Stand firm and I hope no one held back on the surveys
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not enough flight crew because of resignations and upgrades. Quite a few have gone or are going to Emirates and Cathay, Sim booked out for quite a while, 12 or so crew going over to train on Embraer. Think Alliance have taken over the Perth-Broome sectors til July.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: 38,000 ft
Posts: 394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rumour has it that a certain head of department first name Bruce has been given the chop.
One could only assume that if this is true it has something to do with the fact that nearly 90% of the TC and CC arent happy with the EBA's put to them.
Can anyone confirm or deny this rumour???
One could only assume that if this is true it has something to do with the fact that nearly 90% of the TC and CC arent happy with the EBA's put to them.
Can anyone confirm or deny this rumour???