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Virgin Blue EBA

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Virgin Blue EBA

Old 19th Mar 2007, 00:46
  #341 (permalink)  
 
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how flexible is flexible!

yes... you may have to bend with the wind for the sake of your company..BUT how far you are required to bend is totally at the discrestion of the company you work for..
lets face it..how far can you really be expected to bend for the company and not be totally exploited..
there has to be some give and take and the line has to be clearly drawn in the sand.
that clause leaves it all to open interprtation and yes things have been changed at moments notice in the past! Everyone needs stability and some constants in their workplace.
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Old 19th Mar 2007, 01:02
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Exactly!

I am all for giving 100% at work and appreciate that flexibility can and often is required. But there is a limit, VB do not own you, at the end of the day - they are just your employer. Everyone needs some stability in their life and the ground-rules need to be clear.

This document is full of the words require and must when it comes to employee roles and responsibilities and and lots of aim and endeavours when it comes to employer responsibilities.
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Old 19th Mar 2007, 01:09
  #343 (permalink)  
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Smile…The problem with any contract is it’s ambiguity. If it was black and white there would be no problems but with most, both parties can argue that they interpret a clause to mean two different things.

The clause you posted is a point in case..

“Clause 2.3- Dealing With Special Circumstances
Where special circumstances arise which have the capacity to impact on our business we may need to vary the terms of this Agreement.
Any such variation will be through the provision of a dispensation issued by an accredited representative of the FAAA. Any request for a dispensation will not be unresonably withheld where it is sought”

The first section alone is open to interpretation.What are special circumstances?

Basically, anything can be argued to affect or impact on the business.

Does than mean the cost of fuel going up and therefore their cost base is a special circumstance?

Does this mean they can increase your hours to raise productivity or give you less days off?

The best part though is the last sentence..A dispensation will not be unreasonably withheld…

What is the definition of the term unreasonable?

Whose definition is that?

What will probably happen if the crew and the company are at odds over who is being unreasonable?

Smile. Your last line “Sorry BV BOY but I cannot find the part of the clause that says Virgin can go ahead and do what they want if they don't get the dispensation”…… this contradicts that very last line of the clause that you posted.

In that clause they have just said that if they feel they have requested a reasonable variation it will not be withheld.

This is like an each way bet…”Here is your EBA HOWEVER…. IF something changes we want to be able to change your award.

If VB are of the opinion that they are being denied a reasonable variation who is to argue?

I doubt crew are going to be able to argue in court against the legal team that VB could assemble.
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Old 19th Mar 2007, 11:12
  #344 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks Lowerlobe...

Thanks Lowerlobe, my point exactly - I just hope smile hasn't been to one of these Roadshows and had her mind changed by just having the positives presented....

Sinala1 - where r u? I heard you were at the unplugged the other day....

Voting opens very soon - get your NO votes in asap if you want to avoid massive days, minimum rest, fewer overnights.....the list goes on......
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Old 19th Mar 2007, 23:05
  #345 (permalink)  
 
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I have to say that I am starting to see the light just as smile is. At the end of the day you will not work more than 130 hours per 28 days which is exactly the same as it is now. If you do 10 hour days you will work 13 days and have 15 off. 15 days off x13 rosters is 195 days off a year and they only want you to come in on 5 of them for training. Currently those 15 days off would consist of 5 available days which you had to sit around at home waiting to be called or denominate which alot of people didnt understand how that worked.
So if you do 10 hour days you will be getting an extra 75 days off that you get to choose whether you work as optional or you get to sit on the beach.
--
Next the 3% pay rise is slightly less than CPI but we are being given an extra 2% as long as the company makes profit. Nothing else required. We dont even have to sell anything for it. So if the company goes well as it is doing at the moment we get 5%. We also get the commissions which I know you all say isnt much but its at least another 1-2% of base for doing our jobs.
If your a CS put your propel in and you get another 1% taking you folks up to 7-8% increase for doing your job.
--
The PBS is the best thing that is being offered for us. Once it is in and working we will have something that will get us more of what we want. You will be basically writing your own roster 80-90% of the time. If you have a bad roster the next 2 have to be great with the satisfaction system. I trust that Bec and Jack got honest answers from WestJet Crew who do the same job as us. I know there are some doubts about VB and computer software but BlueCheck and WebCheck are working great the majority of the time so I hope that the PBS will as well.
--
I know you think I have turned and we can get a better deal but at least we know what is on offer here. If we turn this down anything could happen. Even under the existing EBA we are asking for it. The roster optimiser can give us all 140 duty hours per month and they will just use relief crew to fill the gaps at the end of the month when we run out of hours. We can be rostered 12 hour days with a paxing sector, with unlimited sectors. We can be given min rest on every overnight. Do you want me to go on.
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Old 20th Mar 2007, 00:58
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Currently, the EBA we have is black and white.....too (WAY TOO) many grey areas in the new document that the company can scr!% us on....

Do you REALLY want to do BNE-DRW returns, BNE-PER returns, (therefore less overnights,less money) four sector MEL-BNE days etc etc etc......??

Ad-Hocs working more hours, overall much less better off (don't listen to what is being sold to you - not correct!)

Do you REALLY think you will be able to basically write your own roster?? Come on, please.....

The company can basically change what they want, when they want - look at the last few posts.....

And they keep on saying that we need to 'trust them'.....DO YOU?????

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Old 20th Mar 2007, 03:43
  #347 (permalink)  
 
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Hi all

Well I went to a roadshow, and I came out feeling really positive about the new EBA, and decided to change my vote to a yes vote.
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Old 20th Mar 2007, 03:46
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I then re read the document without management and the FAAA backing up every single thing they said, and have decided to stick to my original decision, after being reminded of all the endeavours, will aim to, and howevers!
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Old 20th Mar 2007, 05:29
  #349 (permalink)  
 
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Well done

to those of you who have read the eba properly and made an informed decision.

I will also be voting yes.
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Old 20th Mar 2007, 06:43
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educated not pursuaded vote

Is everyone aware that voting has been pushed back to the 24th to make way for more roadshows?
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Old 20th Mar 2007, 07:35
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good luck!

just wishing you all good luck for your EBA negotiations. we held out for ours at JQ and voted no for the first round, conditions pretty much remained the same though minus one or two points that were reclarified or changed to our liking (mat. leave etc). I think every EBA we get is never going to be as good as the current one, due to the change in the whole airline industry, so although hold out for what you want, dont go in with unrealistic expectations - the airline will want some kind of cost reduction.. every airline does.

Its an awful time for some though, because its full of uncertainty and knowing you are leaving an EBA you dont mind working on is hard..

Good Luck!
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Old 20th Mar 2007, 08:36
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Roster Hours

wirgin blew-

At the end of the day you will not work more than 130 hours per 28 days which is exactly the same as it is now.
not to be picky, but here's an slice from the new eba:
6.2.1 Roster Hours
Full time flying rosters will be built between 125 and 135 duty credit hours.
6.4.2 Additional Overtime Hours
a.You may be required to perform additional overtime hours beyond 130 hours in a roster. This may be as a result of roster build, delay, disruption, re-assignment, addition to duties, extension to duties, or call-out from standby. These hours do not include non credit training hours and work on designated days off/optional days.
b.As a full time Cabin Crew member we may require you to perform additional overtime hours up to 140 hours in a roster.
a.If you reach 130 hours during a trip or duty, you are required to complete the remainder of that trip or duty.

A roster being 28 days not 30 or 31, of course.

If I choose to do my job without the 10+ hour days, (because lets face it they're a killer- not something you could do on a regular basis, day in day out) spread my hours over the 18 day's, I'd get 10 days off. Fair. do 9h days get 10 days off, 3 optional days.

However, not taking into account any form of leave-

1680 (140x12rosters) is currently the max hours we can do in a year that we have control over (ie denom avails) ,

1820 (140x13rosters)is the hours proposed, but then there's the addition of 5 training days up to 9 hours, bringing it to 1901 hours.

So essentially 1901 hours / 13 is infact 146.23hours is our maximum for the 28 days, in thoery.

Then there is the argument of the ofset of 5 extra days off. So lets give credit of 5x 4h38m (23h10m) thats still leaves roughly 1881 hours in the year, 144.69 hours a month. Almost 15 hours more than the supposed 130hours in 28 days!

The thing is, is that even though *most* of these extra hours are being paid in overtime, you actually don't have a choice but to do the overtime. As a CS I already do to much overtime, it's just not paid for.

Propel at times taking longer than 5 hours, reading and replying to emails, revisions, online training modules like live2air and KOWF, meetings with DM's before/after duty's, reports-catering, flight, hazard,action sheets etc, 15min sign offs that are never within 15 mins.

I personally would like a choice in saying no to over time (not everyone wants it remember) and there's no choice if 6.2.1 applies.

And what of CS duty credit hours fo propel? How does the following statement read?
a.Cabin Supervisor flying rosters and standby rosters will contain duty credit hours for performance monitoring duties which are to be conducted outside of rostered duty hours. Full time Cabin Supervisors will receive 5 duty credit hours. Part time Cabin Supervisors will receive 2.5 duty credit hours. This will be pro rated where pre-approved leave is publishedwithin a roster.
Is the 5 hours duty credit in addition to the possible 135 hours I have been rostered? is my overtime to 140 hours (clause 6.4.2.b) including the 5 hours propel? Could I be doing 140 hours plus 2 days training(2x9 hours not including paxing!) plus 5 hours propel (total 163) plus all the extra time I spend at work to do my job well in 28 days?

Again so many negatives keep me on the no side of the vote, but please, I am open to feedback so anyone please correct me if I'm wrong...
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Old 20th Mar 2007, 08:43
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rambling a little more..

And that last calculation of 163 hours in 28 days didn't include working optional days!
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Old 20th Mar 2007, 10:02
  #354 (permalink)  
 
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EBA Babylon: I can see where you are coming from once you add up your days work. BUT as a CS you are probably doing between 150-160 hours per month with availables, so the 140x12 isnt quite right anyway. I would say 155x12=1860 and this doesnt even include all the suplementary stuff that you were talking about. Lets say another 5 hours a month free of charge taking you to 1920 hours per annum.
Under the new system at least they are recognising the fact that you need to do paperwork/propel and once you hit 130 you will be getting x1.5 ($42 per hour), as opposed to the available rate you are getting now.
Also dont forget about the fatigue management hours and limitations. I am yet to work out exactly how many hours you can do in a month before that stops you from working anymore.
--
Please forgive me if I am starting to sound like management its just the more I talk about it the more open to change my mind is becoming.
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Old 20th Mar 2007, 15:07
  #355 (permalink)  
 
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examples

BUT as a CS you are probably doing between 150-160 hours per month with availables, so the 140x12 isnt quite right anyway. I would say 155x12=1860
Just for clarification I was using the example with denominated availables, as previously mentioned. As did I use the new eba calcs for hours without optional day hours. or standby.Vurrently, If one is pushing the 140 duty limit for the calender month then you are unable to work any further avl hours unless it is nominated.So there is no forced overtime if you have denominated with adequate notice in the month. Maximum hours is 140. It's there to protect.

The example was used to point out that under new rules, sure there's the fatigue management component, however it still states that 140hours can be *required* of you (of course with overtime payable, but at the price of choice) with the training days, optional/day off overtime and propel in addition to these hours. it's a running tally. The current max 140hr is much more appealing to me. Of course I would be okay with the rules to up the hours to possible to work in 28days, but only if crew with the choice of taking the OT or not.

btw, wirgin, I'm still trying to be as educated on this as I can , so any takes on this eba whether it be yes or no is benificial, to myself and others who may be reading.
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Old 20th Mar 2007, 21:45
  #356 (permalink)  
 
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(apologies for the length of the document)

Here is a word from a Flight crew member:

While I do see a few items of benefit, I have written the following points down with the view of "if we vote yes to this EBA, what is the worst that the company can do to me". I.e. how hard will I have to work and how poor a lifestyle will I have. Of course there is no guarantee that the company will work you to the max., but we must look at the worst case scenario to get an accurate picture of how life will be in the future.
CAUTION: Please read the note below for section 1.7 regarding explanatory notes.


Section
Para.
Comments
1.3

"…time change of not more than 3 hours from Eastern Standard Time or Eastern Daylight Summer Time" …. Why include both times? It would be more simple to say "Brisbane Time", however using the words that are in the EBA document allows the company much more lee-way in deciding where you can go. E.g. in summer, Perth is 3 hours different from Brisbane (EST) but only 2 hours different from Sydney (ESST). Is the deciding time based on your base or your starting point that day?

1.4
1st
This agreement will be "… progressively introduced with the intention….". No time-scale is given for each stage of the implementation, and no guarantee that it will even be fully introduced in 6 months – this is only their intention. I would expect the longer duty and flight times to be introduced first, well before you as crew get any meaningful access to the PBS for lifestyle. Note also that there is no penalty on the company for not implementing everything within 6 months – why not when you still have no lifestyle?
1.4
2nd
"Virgin Blue and the FAAA shall meet and confer ….". Why do the crew not get any input as to the timing of the implementation??? What if the FAAA representative ‘sells you out’ and allows the company free reign???
1.5
1st
"It replaces and excludes all awards, orders of industrial commissions and industrial agreements …. that would otherwise apply to cabin crew". This seems far too powerful a statement to put in without getting a legal interpretation. What does the company intend to introduce later that they require this all-powerful statement?
1.5
2nd
"It excludes all state laws …..". Why? What about unfair dismissal laws – which are not covered by paragraph 1.8 ‘Anti-discrimination’.
1.6

This paragraph stops you, the FAAA or any other body that replaces the FAAA from "pursuing any additional claims …" This includes allowances that you feel you should be entitled to under changes to your work rules. E.g. the change to 4 cabin crew on an 800 aircraft should have attracted extra allowances due to the extra work, but this paragraph ensures that you cannot claim anything extra. See next point.

1.7
2nd
"…any matter or employment condition whether covered by this agreement or not." Here the company has conveniently allowed themselves to change anything and everything to do with your employment , without any requirement to pay you for it. E.g. they could change your monthly hours to 240 hours and not be required to pay you overtime or anything above a normal salary.
1.7
3rd

NOTE:
This clause states that "explanatory notes" will be made available to assist "in understanding how it (EBA) is to be applied" though not forming part of this EBA. These explanatory notes include the DVD and the FAQ’s that the company has produced, and could also include the company roadshows. With this clause in the EBA, the company is now not bound by anything said at the roadshows or in the DVD – they will simply say that the example you quote was either "taken out of context", or the person who made the statement "was not authorised to say that". SO DON’T ALLOW YOURSELF TO BE PERSUADED INTO VOTING FOR THIS EBA BASED WHOLLY ON THE INFORMATION GAINED AT THE ROADSHOWS OR IN THE DVD.
2.1
c.i
"To assist in handling challenges and changed circumstances …". Read here ‘how we can work you harder without paying much (if anything) for your additional work’.
2.1
c.ii
"to consider matters brought before it …". It sounds like the CCC will be able to sort out inconsistencies in interpretation and your problems with the EBA, but in actual fact, the CCC has no power at all to fix anything or direct anybody – it only meets to "examine any cabin crew specific issues", not fix them.
2.2.1

A new PBS will be implemented "as soon as possible." Again no fixed time to give you the lifestyle choices you want, and no penalty on the company for not having it introduced before they introduce extended duty hours and more sectors. "As soon as possible" could blow out to 1 or 2 years, depending on the level of importance placed on it by the company.

### Notice the wording of question 15 of the companies FAQ’s. "Should you vote no to this EBA we will decide whether to proceed with the implementation of the PBS". Are they trying to blackmail you into voting ‘yes’ by threatening to withhold the PBS? The basis of the PBS (i.e. Kronos) has been used by Virgin Blue for over two years, so they are not ‘buying a new program’, just paying for an additional feature. Like buying a car, and then later deciding you want a DVD player in it – you don’t need another car, just an adjustment to the current one.
2.2.2

"… we will examine the possible introduction of flexible work arrangements …". This doesn’t bind the company to introduce the flexible arrangements, only to ‘examine the possibility’. They may just as well say that ‘after examining it, the company has decided not to introduce flexible work arrangements’.

2.2.2

"If we elect not to introduce flexible work arrangements …". The company will decide whether or not you will have flexible work arrangements and the level of part time work. Yes they will ‘consult’ with the cabin crew, but then go away and decide what they think is best for the company, not necessarily what you want/need.

2.2.3

"Should we need to make changes …". The need to make changes indicates that the Embraer operation is not really understood by the VB management, and they want to be able to change anything they feel like in this document to cover for inadequate planning.

2.2.3

"… we will discuss this with you and the FAAA". Any changes that the Embraer introduction requires will be ‘discussed’ with you – but the company won’t necessarily listen to anything you say!

2.2.3

"We will reach agreement with the FAAA prior to making any such changes". Remember, the company is not bound to the rules of this agreement, and can change them at any time just by saying to the FAAA "we need to ….".

2.2.4

"… we will discuss this with you and the FAAA. We will reach agreement with the FAAA ….". The company will discuss their desire to move to composite rosters, but will only reach an agreement with the FAAA, not with you – the people it really affects.

2.2.5

"Should we transfer you to a temporary base, at our direction, ….". There goes any thoughts you had of a lifestyle!! What about that dentist appointment you had, or the wedding you have to attend? Who will look after the children while you are away?

2.2.6

"we will examine the possibility of introducing" annual leave swap. Again, there is no guarantee that this will ever eventuate. Possibly just a ‘carrot’ to encourage people to vote yes.

2.2.7

"We will reach agreement with the FAAA …" about extended pairings. Note that those involved with the extended pairings, (you cabin crew), do not get to vote or discuss this with the company, the FAAA will sign it away on your behalf !!!

2.2.8

International operations will no doubt increase the profitability of the company, yet you get no extra pay for making this possible for the company.

2.3
1st
"… we may need to vary the terms of this agreement." This means that the company can throw out the agreement simply by declaring a "special circumstance". So all the lifestyle, goodwill etc that you had organised suddenly goes down the drain. Why is "special circumstance" not defined anywhere?
2.3
2nd
"… dispensation issued by an accredited representative …". So the decision is simply made by one person in the FAAA, without any discussion with cabin crew or others in the FAAA. Or could a VB cabin crew FAAA delegate also be called an accredited representative?
2.3
2nd
"Any request for a dispensation will not be unreasonably withheld where it is sought." In other words, the FAAA is now bound by this document to ‘rubber stamp’ any and all dispensations that the company asks for!! Where will it end? Will your pay be cut by dispensation?
2.3
3rd
"… where possible we will provide you …". If time is critical to the company, they don’t even want you to talk to the FAAA representative about the dispensation – just trust the company!
2.4.1
h
Just as the company managers have "a reasonable time frame", i.e. 14 days, in which to respond to your concerns, you also must have the same time to respond to their concerns – why was this not put in the document also?
2.4.4
2nd
"You must also comply with any reasonable direction …". What is the definition of ‘reasonable direction’ and who decides what is reasonable under the circumstances?
2.4.4
2nd
"… other available work, either at the same workplace or at another workplace." So now the company could tell you (not ask you) to make yourself available for ground duties in Sydney, or Adelaide, or anywhere else they feel the need – including the Brisbane city office!


to be continued..........
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Old 20th Mar 2007, 21:47
  #357 (permalink)  
 
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3.1
3rd
"…. disrupted by a variety of factors beyond our control." This is far too wide-ranging and should be limited to certain defined events.
3.1
3rd
"… your roster may need to be changed in order for us to meet our operational requirements." There must be limits placed on the company as to what they can and cannot change – otherwise there is no point in having a roster, and the PBS is a complete waste of time as there is zero guarantee of lifestyle.
3.2
2nd
"You must also carry out all reasonable directions of a Supervisor or Manager." This sentence allows ANY supervisor (cabin crew, check-in, or whatever) to direct you to do a task. (Could that also involve assisting the pit-crew?)
3.3.1
iv
"duties that are peripheral or incidental to the work of ….". These duties MUST also be defined so that you can know what it is that you may be asked to do.
3.3.1
3rd
"This means that your duties and responsibilities may also change.". So there can be all sorts of changes to your duties, over which you have no control, yet you are prohibited (by paragraph 1.6) from asking for additional pay for these additional duties – does this sound fair to you?
3.3.2
1st
"… various duties which include, but are not limited to the following:". In other words, you are the general kitchen hand, toilet cleaner, typist, messenger e.t.c. for everyone in the office while on airport reserve.
3.3.3
a
"How you perform when you act up …. will be taken into consideration …". This sounds to me like a carrot to try and make you think that they will favour you for promotion.
3.5.1
3rd
"… a high degree of commitment and flexibility is required." There goes your lifestyle again, as they suddenly ‘require’ you to come in on your days off to conduct training or checking that should have been rostered properly.
3.6.1
2nd
"If not, then we may exercise our right to end the employment relationship ….". This contradicts the sentence at the start of section 3.6 (i.e. We will provide you with facilities to reach and maintain …..")
3.6.2
1st
"A duty may be changed in order for you to undergo training or assessment." This is an unreasonable requirement. When undergoing assessment, it is not too much to ask that a reasonable notice is given, e.g. two weeks. This should fit easily into the normal rostering system. Anything shorter must only be with your consent. See the companies aim as stated in the next paragraph – this completely contradicts this paragraph, so why is it in here?
3.7
3rd
"If not, then we may exercise our right to end the employment relationship ….". This contradicts the sentence at the start of section 3.6 (i.e. We will provide you with facilities to reach and maintain …..")
3.8
e
"There will be times outside these specific periods where we may need to contact you ….". So now you find that you are effectively on call 24 hours per day, 365 days a year – this sounds like a great lifestyle improvement !!
3.9.1

"These expectations are set out in … our policy and procedures and operational manuals.". Remember that changes to these manuals do not require the approval of the FAAA or the cabin crew themselves.

3.9.4
a
"It may also mean warning you that a continuation may lead to the termination of your employment." What about the training promised in paragraph 3.6??
3.9.4
e.i
"We may elect to do this verbally or in writing." Any issue raised by the company that may affect your continued employment, or disciplinary action MUST be in writing – otherwise you have no evidence that the matter has been satisfactorily dealt with,
3.9.6

They neglected to include a sentence stating that nothing will be recorded on your file about an ‘anonymous report’.

3.9.7

"You may be displaced from your duties or required to attend work ….". Does this mean that the company can ask (tell) you to come in on your day off to attend one of these meetings?? It sure looks like it. What did you say about lifestyle?

3.11

Why must cabin crew bear the cost of Visas that the company requires you to get. This is a company responsibility.

3.13
a
"We have the right to transfer you between bases ….". Why should they? No indication is given here of how much notice they have to give, and why can’t you refuse the transfer for family reasons? This is a grossly unfair statement. NB: the pilots EBA also had this in it, and I was told by Michael Young, General Manager Aircraft Operations, that "it is not in the company’s interest to force people to move", yet he wouldn’t say why they wanted it in! That makes me very suspicious of the company’s real intent.
3.13
c.iii
Storage of goods for up to 30 days is not a reasonable time-frame. What if the place you rent is fully furnished? Why should you wear the added cost of storage?
3.13
c.v
The company will fly your family to their ‘new home’, yet no mention is made of flying you there !!
3.13
d
"Prior to transferring our cabin crew from one home base to another, we will consult with the FAAA." This means that the company will TELL the FAAA that they are about to transfer crew. Whoopee, that’s a relief !!
3.13.1

"…. unless otherwise agreed with you." So what say do the cabin crew actually get in this discussion? What happens if the company wants you to transfer for 28 days but you only want to transfer for 7 days????????

3.14

"Cabin Crew members may be employed ….. a number of categories, which include but are not limited to those set out below:" This means that they could employ ad-hoc cabin crew from overseas countries on terms not spelt out here – e.g. reduced pay and conditions, which then puts pressure on your conditions of employment.

3.14.2
2nd
"These positions (temporary part time) will be available until we either …… these positions will become permanent part time.". How does that work? 5% are permanent part time, and 8% are temporary part time – does the permanent part time percentage increase to allow for these extras? Nothing is written here to indicate that, so I assume that some part timers are going to have to back to full time!
3.14.6

"Maximum term contracts". This term is not defined anywhere in this document, so what does it mean? Does your understanding of the definition agree with the company’s? Can they change their understanding of the phrase?

3.15
h
"… In light of the nature of our operation, this must be taken at a time that is convenient to us." S not only have you been made redundant, but you cannot go to a job interview at a time that suits your new employer, you still have to fit in with VB !! What utter stupidity.
3.16.2
2nd
"Severance pay will not be paid where we arrange an offer of reasonable alternative employment for you." Who decides what is reasonable to you??? The company, of course.
3.17
1st
"Should an event …." Any reasonable document would have some sort of definition here as to the ‘event’.
3.17
2nd
"… we may direct you to stand down with pay, on a pay reduction or without pay." Who decides how much the pay reduction will be? Why is that not stated?
3.18.1
3rd
"This benefit is inclusive of any Workers compensation …". The word ‘inclusive’ should be ‘exclusive’. The company is being rather tight-fisted in not wanting to cover you with adequate life/death insurance. After all, $150,000 cover is not very much, so why can’t you get this in addition to workers comp., e.t.c?
3.18.2
c
"This benefit will be payable in the event of your death whilst flying the last sector into or the first sector out of any warlike area." Why does it only apply to these two sectors? Why not to all sectors? I can imagine the field day that an insurance company will have with this statement, and it is your family that will have to fight for it while grieving.
3.19
4th
"… and failing such nomination it will, at our discretion, …" Do you trust this company to exercise their discretion in relation to the payment of your salary while to are interred (gaoled) in a foreign country?
4.1.1
b
Why is your salary increase limited to 5%? If the CPI goes to 7% then you are losing money very quickly, and judging by this EBA, you will never get it back.
4.1.1
c
The 5% above must be traded for "further productivity gains". What have you got left to give?
4.1.1
e
"The 3% salary increase for 1 September 2006 has already been paid." This does not, an any way oblige you to accept this new EBA. The company told us that they were paying the 3% in good faith!! Not so that you would feel obliged to accept their indecent offer.
4.1.5
b
The productivity payment will be paid once there is implementation of this agreement. The full implementation could take 6 or 12 months, maybe longer, so you might be waiting a long tome for this payment.
4.1.6
a
"….subject to specified performance targets being met …". Who sets these performance targets? Are they reasonable? How do Cabin Supervisors know how everyone is going? This is not a very transparent system, and is open to abuse by the company.
4.2.4
a
"We will aim to provide you with a break …". But if you don’t get one, when doing 7 sectors in an 11 hour day, it is just too bad!!
4.2.4
b
No provision is made for busy sectors where there is no time for a break.
4.2.4
c
A rest break is here defined as being "free from all duty". So you can’t have a break while stowing the catering. And if you are interrupted in your break by a pax wanting something, then you really haven’t had a break at all.
4.2.4
e
"Time on the ground" for rest. See the item above.
4.2.9
a
Overtime cutting in at 10 hours 30 minutes is not even halfway reasonable ! Lets get back to the real world and bring it in at 8 or 9 hours.
4.2.10

Annual leave loading of 11.67%. The majority of shift workers get 17.5%, so why shouldn’t you????

4.2.11

This is a legal requirement, not a concession by the company.

4.4
1st
Why is there not a limit as to how much money the company can take out of your pay to make up for their overpayment? You might end up only getting $100 for your fortnights work because the company has taken the rest.
5.0
4th
"Additional leave may be provided …". But paragraph 1.5 says that this document ‘excludes’ all state laws. This sentence is obviously not valid.
5.1.5
b
You lose a days pay as well as losing a day of personal leave! This is a double penalty. I wonder if this is actually legal??
5.1.5
c
Another double penalty.
5.1.5
d
You must provide your certificate on your first day back. But para’s b and c said you have seven days to produce the certificate.
5.1.5
e
So now the company is better equipped, trained and qualified than your own Doctor, in deciding if you are genuinely ill. Your GP will have fun with this when you tell him that the company doesn’t believe him – is it slander???? What moron wrote this??
5.1.6
a
If you work you work 90% of your duty and then go sick, the company adopts the attitude that you haven’t done anything that day, and takes a day off your personal leave!!!!!
5.2
b
If directed by the company to attend a doctor, the company should pay the bill (as most companies will), yet there is no mention of that here.
5.4
c
"URTI leave is not cumulative like personal leave." This contradicts the previous paragraph which states "… you may access up to 6 days leave per year of service."
5.7.2
b
Current industrial laws permit you to accrue up to 10 weeks leave before the company can force you to take it, so why do they want to limit your lifestyle here by reducing your accrued leave to 4 weeks?
6.2.2
b
Only 4hrs 38 mins duty credit for leave taken, yet if to divide 135 hours (see para 6.2.1) by 18 working days per ‘month’ (28 days-10 days off) you get an average of 7.5 hours per day. Now you have to work harder for that part of the month you are not on leave!! Another lifestyle bonus!
6.2.2
c
"…. where you are Subject to Operational Clearance (SOC) as defined by us." This is not at all transparent, and is open to abuse by the company.
6.3

But when will the PBS be operational? NO promise is made by the company regarding this.

6.4.1

"You may agree to work beyond 130 hours in a roster." But the roster is built to 135 hours, so how does that work – I guess the company can just ‘assume’ that you want to work more.

6.4.2
a
"You may be required ….". Another lifestyle inhibiting section. Who wants to get drafted?
6.4.2
g
You can tell crewing that you ‘prefer’ not to exceed your 130 hours, but you can’t say no to further duties. This is no guarantee of a lifestyle.
6.4.4
d
This means that you can pax BNE-MEL-BNE with a 9 hour training day in MEL !!
6.4.4
e
So you can do 135 duty credit hours plus two 9 hour days, taking the total up to 153 hours for the month (excluding any paxing for the ground duties). How easy is that !!!!!
6.4.4
f
This reduces your hours, so that you do 140 duty credit hours plus 9 hours non credit training plus paxing (if necessary).
6.5.1

Even just contemplating cabin crew doing more than 5 sectors shows that the company really doesn’t understand the environment you work in. And they say that safety is important ??????????? I’m lost!

6.5.5

What pressure will the company exert on its employees to get them to "agree" to work an extra 2 hours???

6.5.6

12 hours duration here contradicts para 4.4.d. Or are they thinking up other ground duties for you to perform??

6.5.7

"This is intended to provide you with an opportunity to have a rest break." I have been on flights of greater than 1hour 45 minutes where no-one has had time to have a rest break because of demanding customers. So now you can do more than 5 sectors in 11 hours with no rest break! How safe are you then??

6.5.9

No lifestyle here, where a duty is rostered over whatever spans the company feels like.

6.6
e
These cumulative duty hour limitations are far from realistic.
6.7.1
a
A late finish duty should be 2200 to 2359, and a night duty 0000 to 0459.
6.7.1
b
"In the unlikely event that this occurs we will consult with you ….." and no doubt put pressure on you to continue.



....... I have not compared your current EBA to this one, so have not commented on the pay scales e.t.c., except to note that in the first FAQ booklet handed out, the company seems to be of the opinion that you don’t want a pay rise. This is almost impossible to believe – who were they really talking to? I trust this has been of some help. From what I have read of this document, it is certainly no better, and some would say much worse, than the one voted down by the pilots.
KittyBlue is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2007, 22:51
  #358 (permalink)  
 
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Hi guys

Firstly, to all of the flight crew out there who are taking an active interest in our EBA - thank you. It is nice to have flight deck out there who are actively putting out documents highlighting that if we vote yes for this EBA, the company has it in their power to do exactly what the EBA says, not what they verbally state at the roadshows.

It is all good and well for the managers to stand up at the roadshows saying 'but there is always someone who wants to do those shifts', 'it is not in the company's best interest for doing that', etc...

There is no protection in this EBA for Cabin Crew. There is a lot of potential for us to be shafted.

Just dont forget your original concerns before you went to the roadshows. If they answered your concerns, ask yourself this - are their answers that you seemed to be pleased with written in the EBA, or is it just managements/FAAAs word?

Again, my opinion.
crewbus is offline  
Old 21st Mar 2007, 09:32
  #359 (permalink)  
 
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press record

If they answered your concerns, ask yourself this - are their answers that you seemed to be pleased with written in the EBA, or is it just managements/FAAAs word?
For all those thinking the company/union word might protect you, maybe you should record one of the roadshows so you can play it back to yourself in the near future when you've been shafted for one reason or another- because even though it wasn't the companies "intention" now, who knows what it may be in a year or 2 or 3. How many times throughout negotiation history has it been necessary to "get it in writing"? This is no exception.
EBA_Babylon is offline  
Old 21st Mar 2007, 10:44
  #360 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks Kitty blue, a very thorough analysis of the proposed EBA, I intend to get along to one of the roadshows and ask some very important questions which you have raised. The more I read the EBA and the use of language when referring to the responsibilities of management such as 'aim, endeavour, attempt', the clearer it becomes management can pretty much do whatever they like as long as they 'consult' (i.e inform) the FAAA and its because of operational requirements. Also I find it very frustrating how a lot of the myth busters being sent out by our FAAA reps compare the current EBA with the proposed EBA. 'Oh I see if they can already do it under the current EBA then why don't we just make it the next EBA too'. Just because Virgin Blue may be able to make similar decisions under the current EBA doesn't necessarily mean its a good thing, thats all the more reason to make changes to reflect better working conditions. I think the current EBA is appalling and the proposed EBA is worse if thats possible???
320subria is offline  

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