Virgin Blue bias against older women
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Virgin Blue bias against older women
From www.smh.com.au
Virgin Blue off song in bias against older women
By Mark Todd
October 10, 2005 - 2:28PM
Eight flight attendants have won an age discrimination case against airline Virgin Blue.
The women, aged between 36 and 56, claimed Virgin Blue discriminated against them in job interviews that required applicants to dance and sing.
Outside court one of the women, Nicole Hopper, said she was overjoyed by the win and it showed "people over the age of 35 are not finished".
After applying for jobs with Virgin Blue in 2001, the women attended "assessment centres", where they were asked to sing, dance and perform. None of them made it past the first round.
The flight attendants - all former Ansett workers - alleged in the Anti-Discrimination Tribunal in Brisbane that they were refused jobs because of their age.
During an earlier hearing, one of the attendants, Theresa Stewart, 52, said she was refused a job at the airline in late 2001 despite her 27 years' experience, because she didn't have the "Virgin flair".
"The assessment was designed to view a large number of people in a very short space of time to see how they look. They were after a certain look that appeals to Richard Branson.
"If you had two beautiful blonde girls, 25 and gorgeous, then they went to them like homing pigeons."
Virgin Blue said it had not hired cabin crew over the age of 36 in a two-year recruitment drive because mostly young women had applied.
However, the court sided with the women.
Tribunal member Douglas Savage, SC, upheld all the complaints and awarded costs against Virgin Blue.
"I find that the case of direct discrimination on the basis of age made by each of the complainants is made out," Mr Savage said. "I order that the respondents pay the complainants' costs of these proceedings."
Virgin Blue's assessors (or job interviewers) were "comparitively young" and identified "with persons of the same age and experience as the assessors, or what the assesors regarded as ... a fun person," Mr Savage said. He said there had been a "significant correction" in Virgin Blue's hiring practices after September 2002.
Compensation is due to be decided within four weeks.
It is understood the flight attendants - Nicole Hopper, Maureen Mulherin, Carol Dowling, Keely Bill, Alma Frank, Theresa Stewart, Lynley Boyes and Virgina Jeffries - have signed a deal with a commercial television station.
Virgin Blue off song in bias against older women
By Mark Todd
October 10, 2005 - 2:28PM
Eight flight attendants have won an age discrimination case against airline Virgin Blue.
The women, aged between 36 and 56, claimed Virgin Blue discriminated against them in job interviews that required applicants to dance and sing.
Outside court one of the women, Nicole Hopper, said she was overjoyed by the win and it showed "people over the age of 35 are not finished".
After applying for jobs with Virgin Blue in 2001, the women attended "assessment centres", where they were asked to sing, dance and perform. None of them made it past the first round.
The flight attendants - all former Ansett workers - alleged in the Anti-Discrimination Tribunal in Brisbane that they were refused jobs because of their age.
During an earlier hearing, one of the attendants, Theresa Stewart, 52, said she was refused a job at the airline in late 2001 despite her 27 years' experience, because she didn't have the "Virgin flair".
"The assessment was designed to view a large number of people in a very short space of time to see how they look. They were after a certain look that appeals to Richard Branson.
"If you had two beautiful blonde girls, 25 and gorgeous, then they went to them like homing pigeons."
Virgin Blue said it had not hired cabin crew over the age of 36 in a two-year recruitment drive because mostly young women had applied.
However, the court sided with the women.
Tribunal member Douglas Savage, SC, upheld all the complaints and awarded costs against Virgin Blue.
"I find that the case of direct discrimination on the basis of age made by each of the complainants is made out," Mr Savage said. "I order that the respondents pay the complainants' costs of these proceedings."
Virgin Blue's assessors (or job interviewers) were "comparitively young" and identified "with persons of the same age and experience as the assessors, or what the assesors regarded as ... a fun person," Mr Savage said. He said there had been a "significant correction" in Virgin Blue's hiring practices after September 2002.
Compensation is due to be decided within four weeks.
It is understood the flight attendants - Nicole Hopper, Maureen Mulherin, Carol Dowling, Keely Bill, Alma Frank, Theresa Stewart, Lynley Boyes and Virgina Jeffries - have signed a deal with a commercial television station.
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Ok, I'm not saying the court isn't entitled to its decision, but - and it's a big one - how the hell can they say it was their age?
Who gives a stuff if the recruiters were 'young'?? Perhaps these women were too set in their ways or showed an attitude that wasn't what the airline was 'looking for'. Everyone knows airlines have a certain 'type' they want. You don't see me suing Emirates because they decided I wasn't their type. Yes, it pissed me off, Yes i was ticked off, but hey - they're the one offering the job. Unless I'm a mind reader how can I say they decided against me for whatever reason?
You could say the wrong thing or accidentally piss off a recruiter - then they don't pick you. That's not discrimination - that's going for a job interview. Sometimes you win sometimes you lose. I see one of the women went on to get a job with QF. Totally different company, totally different 'style' and way of doing things. Fairly likely she just didn't 'fit in' - for whatever reason - with Virgin. A company has the right to pick between applicants for the person who has the best 'job fit'.
Example:
Applicant A and Applicant B are both previous crew, both lovely, outgoing, etc etc. Applicant A may be a bit older than Applicant B. Applicant B shows during assessment that they are more flexible and adaptable than Applicant A.
Company feels that Applicant A doesn't 'fit' with that company, is too set in their ways and probably won't be happy after a while with the company. They feel they will get a better 'investment' (for lack of a better word) from hiring Applicant B because in their opinion Applicant B is better suited to the job. Applicant B just happens to be younger - so what. Yes, majority of DJ crew are young. Perhaps they felt that these ladies would be unhappy because they wouldn't fit in so well with the other crew (a generalisation on their part if they did but hey they have to make a quick decision on assessment days)
Let's face it, you don't hear of this many lawsuits happening in other industries, does anyone else think that because of the competition for CC jobs that rejected applicants get over-sensitive?? Sometimes you just aren't the person who is MOST right for the job and someone else gets it ahead of you. Too bad, there's plenty of other opportunities out there. Wastes the time of courts who have plenty of cases of severe discrimination (not trying to downplay these womens' case but some perspective for say, someone who is disabled being discriminated against....)
Who gives a stuff if the recruiters were 'young'?? Perhaps these women were too set in their ways or showed an attitude that wasn't what the airline was 'looking for'. Everyone knows airlines have a certain 'type' they want. You don't see me suing Emirates because they decided I wasn't their type. Yes, it pissed me off, Yes i was ticked off, but hey - they're the one offering the job. Unless I'm a mind reader how can I say they decided against me for whatever reason?
You could say the wrong thing or accidentally piss off a recruiter - then they don't pick you. That's not discrimination - that's going for a job interview. Sometimes you win sometimes you lose. I see one of the women went on to get a job with QF. Totally different company, totally different 'style' and way of doing things. Fairly likely she just didn't 'fit in' - for whatever reason - with Virgin. A company has the right to pick between applicants for the person who has the best 'job fit'.
Example:
Applicant A and Applicant B are both previous crew, both lovely, outgoing, etc etc. Applicant A may be a bit older than Applicant B. Applicant B shows during assessment that they are more flexible and adaptable than Applicant A.
Company feels that Applicant A doesn't 'fit' with that company, is too set in their ways and probably won't be happy after a while with the company. They feel they will get a better 'investment' (for lack of a better word) from hiring Applicant B because in their opinion Applicant B is better suited to the job. Applicant B just happens to be younger - so what. Yes, majority of DJ crew are young. Perhaps they felt that these ladies would be unhappy because they wouldn't fit in so well with the other crew (a generalisation on their part if they did but hey they have to make a quick decision on assessment days)
Let's face it, you don't hear of this many lawsuits happening in other industries, does anyone else think that because of the competition for CC jobs that rejected applicants get over-sensitive?? Sometimes you just aren't the person who is MOST right for the job and someone else gets it ahead of you. Too bad, there's plenty of other opportunities out there. Wastes the time of courts who have plenty of cases of severe discrimination (not trying to downplay these womens' case but some perspective for say, someone who is disabled being discriminated against....)
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Skysis...I suspect in some cases you are probably right, but doesnt it make you think??..a whole year without anyone over 35 passing the muster?? the burden of circumstantial evidence is enough to bring a civil discrimination suit..based on the size of VB and its recruitment.
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Good on them I say, if Virgin were half smart they would of at least put a few people in over the age of 35 just to stop this type of action being taken against them.
Now lets get to the compensation, I think for a start 21 year old toy boys should be at the top of the list!
Now lets get to the compensation, I think for a start 21 year old toy boys should be at the top of the list!
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Skysis,
Absolutely agree in some respects, but there is such an obvious trend with DJ that they only tend to recruit crew of the young variety, it is advertised, promoted and it's in their marketing, then on top of that majority of their crew are under 36, with majority of 'older' applicants being unsuccessfull, that's just a law suit waiting to happen. Put yourself in their shoes. On the other hand though, i do think that an employer has the right to employ who they want based on what their company is about, but EEO has to come into it somewhere.
On top of DJ having to pay all court costs for all parties involved, it will be interesting to see what the compensation will be or how much it will be i should say.
Oz
Absolutely agree in some respects, but there is such an obvious trend with DJ that they only tend to recruit crew of the young variety, it is advertised, promoted and it's in their marketing, then on top of that majority of their crew are under 36, with majority of 'older' applicants being unsuccessfull, that's just a law suit waiting to happen. Put yourself in their shoes. On the other hand though, i do think that an employer has the right to employ who they want based on what their company is about, but EEO has to come into it somewhere.
On top of DJ having to pay all court costs for all parties involved, it will be interesting to see what the compensation will be or how much it will be i should say.
Oz
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Crikey...here I am about to return to Cabin Crew after a 13 year break ....I've got a Virgin interview next week....and yeah...I'm over 35...41 actually and probably more confident and capable than I ever was.......
Not sure about my singing though.... Anyway, I'm looking forward to my assessment
Not sure about my singing though.... Anyway, I'm looking forward to my assessment
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You will be fine, the Virgin marketing wheel will be in full overdrive right now you will be the next pin-up girl/boy with billboards of you plastered all over Australia with a slogan "see we do employ old people look she/he is 41". No offence about your age but that is something I fully expect Virgin to do thats their standard and bad taste.
Branson always reminds me of a dirty old man going through a midlife crisis every time I see him with a group of 18 year old blonde flight attendants fresh from their Magazine shoot hanging off his arm. Maybe its time for his son to take over as the figure head of the Virgin group as he is more the age that projects youth not some old man with bad teeth that are just way to white.
Branson always reminds me of a dirty old man going through a midlife crisis every time I see him with a group of 18 year old blonde flight attendants fresh from their Magazine shoot hanging off his arm. Maybe its time for his son to take over as the figure head of the Virgin group as he is more the age that projects youth not some old man with bad teeth that are just way to white.
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Hi - yeah sorry should have said...I'm off for an interview with Virgin Atlantin here in the UK.... anyway age is all in the mind.....at least I think it is...ha ha ha
No seriously, I expect there'll be loads of young, nubile wannabes...fine....bring on the competition! ....Will let you know how I get on....fingers crossed everyone ...
No seriously, I expect there'll be loads of young, nubile wannabes...fine....bring on the competition! ....Will let you know how I get on....fingers crossed everyone ...
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Well I totally support the women who sued and the outcome of the courts.
CC is not just about looking virginal, it is about hard work and getting the job done. Experience should always win out in the end and if age comes with that wisdom then more power to your elbow.
Well done and hopefully we may see more airlines being sued because of 'ism's.
I heard that some Asian and middle east airlines will not hire women pilots. How infuriating it must be to train and pay all that money just to pipped at the post because of gender.
Thank goodness I live and work in a country that is beyond all that nonsense and lives up to equality.
Go New Zealand and its national carrier.
Flygirlnz
CC is not just about looking virginal, it is about hard work and getting the job done. Experience should always win out in the end and if age comes with that wisdom then more power to your elbow.
Well done and hopefully we may see more airlines being sued because of 'ism's.
I heard that some Asian and middle east airlines will not hire women pilots. How infuriating it must be to train and pay all that money just to pipped at the post because of gender.
Thank goodness I live and work in a country that is beyond all that nonsense and lives up to equality.
Go New Zealand and its national carrier.
Flygirlnz
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Bravo to the court.
I'm VB CC and it is a rare day indeed that I don't work with some young inexperienced crew member.
Being a flight attendant is not about looking pretty. Its about bringing life experience and work experince to the job and being able to effectively balance strong customer service skills with assertive safety standards.
If VB want to have a 'pretty' airline then they should have models on board to do the bar service and trained CC to be the safety profs on board. ALA "Hooter Air' in the states.
Discrimination is wrong, whether it be on age, gender, race whatever and anyone who thinks otherewise has surely never been a victim of it.
I hope this will wake VB up and make it realise that it is now a BIG COMPANY and has to act like it. Get people into the recruiting department and training department (ohh the stories we could tell about the training dept.....) who have a bit more experience than graduating high school and a parttime job on the weekend.
Bring on the adults I say!!!
I'm VB CC and it is a rare day indeed that I don't work with some young inexperienced crew member.
Being a flight attendant is not about looking pretty. Its about bringing life experience and work experince to the job and being able to effectively balance strong customer service skills with assertive safety standards.
If VB want to have a 'pretty' airline then they should have models on board to do the bar service and trained CC to be the safety profs on board. ALA "Hooter Air' in the states.
Discrimination is wrong, whether it be on age, gender, race whatever and anyone who thinks otherewise has surely never been a victim of it.
I hope this will wake VB up and make it realise that it is now a BIG COMPANY and has to act like it. Get people into the recruiting department and training department (ohh the stories we could tell about the training dept.....) who have a bit more experience than graduating high school and a parttime job on the weekend.
Bring on the adults I say!!!
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What other 800 flight attendants are you talking about. The day we lodged and required stats from VB they only had 800 flight attendants. That shows you how long ago this was started. But do you want to know the best part. We won. We have no gripe with any dept of Virgin Blue bar the recruitment section. Good luck to each and every one of you. For me now, its back to full time international flying with a brilliant airline that has never shown discrimination of any kind. Good luck to everyone over 35 who applies to VB. You probably have a really good shot. Cheers Richard!!!! 
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I wonder if a 56 year old,straight bloke would get a look in.
With either the airline or the "Discrimination"board.
I would say the chances are somewhere between FAT and BUCKLEY'S
With either the airline or the "Discrimination"board.
I would say the chances are somewhere between FAT and BUCKLEY'S
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I do really think it is awful what happened to these women.
Saying that, I don't think it is unique to Virgin. It's just they got caught. I also think that the anti-discrimination laws in Oz are a fair bit stricter than the rest of the world.
I am Cabin Crew for BA and also work part time in recruitment/selection. I have to say that BA is so 'PC' in it's recruitment it is unreal. But that isn't the case with all airlines here in the UK.
When we hold recruitment days for Cabin Crew we (the seconded crew) work alongside a professional recruitment agency. So if you are being interviewed for a cabin crew position with BA it is likely the interviewers are a mix of BA seconded crew and professional recruiters. We work to a 'specification'. ie. In the group interview you get a 'tick in the box' for certain behaviour types. In the 2-on-1 interview (the interviewers cannot be the same as the group interviewers), the interview is 'scenario' based. Every answer you give is written down in detail and each answer is 'rated'. If your 'score' passes and you got all the 'behavioural quality' boxes ticked from the group interview, you are in.
What you wear, what brand of shoes you have on don't really come into it. Your facial expressions, interaction, way you carry yourself do.
I remember on my initial cabin crew course with BA, there was a 51 year old woman in my course who had never flown before. She was an ex-policewoman, was brilliant in the course and was fantastic in her job until she had to retire at 55. (So never assume when you see an old gal on a BA flight that she has been there forever! Lol)
I did some interviewing a couple of weeks ago and was chatting with the agency recruiter I worked alongside. Co-incidentally, they also work alongside the recruiters at Qantas UK in a similar 'joint' situation as we have at BA. She was telling me she hates doing QF recruitment days because they aren't objective in their recruitment. She was saying that they would interview an older person, with flying experience, displaying all the qualities they are looking for.....Only to be vetoed by the QF recruiters with phrases like 'No No No...we want young, vibrant individuals. Did you see the shoes she was wearing!'.
That is just one example. Can you imagine what it must be like in the recruitment departments at the likes of Malaysian, Singapore or Cathay????
Saying that, I don't think it is unique to Virgin. It's just they got caught. I also think that the anti-discrimination laws in Oz are a fair bit stricter than the rest of the world.
I am Cabin Crew for BA and also work part time in recruitment/selection. I have to say that BA is so 'PC' in it's recruitment it is unreal. But that isn't the case with all airlines here in the UK.
When we hold recruitment days for Cabin Crew we (the seconded crew) work alongside a professional recruitment agency. So if you are being interviewed for a cabin crew position with BA it is likely the interviewers are a mix of BA seconded crew and professional recruiters. We work to a 'specification'. ie. In the group interview you get a 'tick in the box' for certain behaviour types. In the 2-on-1 interview (the interviewers cannot be the same as the group interviewers), the interview is 'scenario' based. Every answer you give is written down in detail and each answer is 'rated'. If your 'score' passes and you got all the 'behavioural quality' boxes ticked from the group interview, you are in.
What you wear, what brand of shoes you have on don't really come into it. Your facial expressions, interaction, way you carry yourself do.
I remember on my initial cabin crew course with BA, there was a 51 year old woman in my course who had never flown before. She was an ex-policewoman, was brilliant in the course and was fantastic in her job until she had to retire at 55. (So never assume when you see an old gal on a BA flight that she has been there forever! Lol)
I did some interviewing a couple of weeks ago and was chatting with the agency recruiter I worked alongside. Co-incidentally, they also work alongside the recruiters at Qantas UK in a similar 'joint' situation as we have at BA. She was telling me she hates doing QF recruitment days because they aren't objective in their recruitment. She was saying that they would interview an older person, with flying experience, displaying all the qualities they are looking for.....Only to be vetoed by the QF recruiters with phrases like 'No No No...we want young, vibrant individuals. Did you see the shoes she was wearing!'.
That is just one example. Can you imagine what it must be like in the recruitment departments at the likes of Malaysian, Singapore or Cathay????
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capt.cynical.
You are generalising when you said i wonder if a 56yo straight bloke would get in? There are plenty of older straight men which are F/A's (obviously not with DJ), but i worked not that long ago with a 48yo, straight ex-farmer, that stereotype should just be a myth by now.
Oz
You are generalising when you said i wonder if a 56yo straight bloke would get in? There are plenty of older straight men which are F/A's (obviously not with DJ), but i worked not that long ago with a 48yo, straight ex-farmer, that stereotype should just be a myth by now.
Oz
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I do really think it is awful what happened to these women.
I hope VB now employs them - their going to wonder wtf has hit them when they are away from home for so many nights a month.
Its a different scene to the leisurely life they had at ansett.