Question regarding the future
 

Dear all,


Having spent almost 20 years in aviation, jumping from one company to another but never being given an upgrade as captain, I am looking to come back home to Europe and join Netjets.

At the moment I am flying for one of the major carriers in the Middle East on a modern wide body jet. But having spent some years in the sandpit time has come to pull the plug and go back to the real world before it’s too late.

We all know Murphy’s Law, but the day I decided to hand in my resignation I received a letter telling me I was selected for upgrade on the baby bus!!!

So I think it is logic that I have certain extra questions regarding my first choice, the one to join NJE….I am hoping some of you will be willing to answer these in all honesty.

Here we go:

• Ever since I began my career in aviation I have been told never to leave an upgrade behind. And now I would be going against this very rule. Would you consider this a well thought over choice? Would you do the same?
• Until now I hear left, right and centre that flying corporate jets is regarded as being a bit less valuable then flying commercial. Where I come from people would prefer to fly an old 737 Freighter at night for 3500 Euro/month just to fly a bigger jet then to go to NJE for a better lifestyle for better money. I know first hand that the job as a commercial pilot is becoming more and more a job for spineless button pushers while being a corporate pilot remains much more demanding(performance of planes, remote fields,…) But how does one deal with this if in a later stage you want to go back to commercial? Or is it so addictive that no sane pilot will ever go back to the world of commercial aviation?
• On day to day bases, can one survive lets say 20 years in a Netjets environment? All in all is it a very demanding environment, flying airplanes which are in fact not made to spend so many days/year in. Do most of you guys see NJE as a company to retire from?
• 6 on/5 off certainly has its perks, but how do your families deal with this after a couple of years? 6 days away from home is not a short period to leave, in my case, wife and kids behind.
• Everybody is talking about the BIG D or the major recession which is heading our way. Exactly how safe do you guys think we might be in a fractional ownership environment like NJE? I know it’s a rich company, backed up by the richest man in the world and his company but still…nobody knows what might happen in case it really goes wrong!

That’s it for now….I am truly hoping for some great answers…


A confused airline pilot

Oh, I think you'll get some answers alright. Quite a few airline and ex-airline types frequent this forum.

Flinty, you disappoint today!

20 years in aviation and no command yet? Going to be a fun interview!!

Better lifestyle, better money at NJE? Do a search before making sweeping statements.

Flying corporate jets less valuable?

Open floodgates, sit back and enjoy.

Well I thought I'd try and give a decent answer but I have to start with a question which would definitely come up at interview....

• If it's not a rude question how come no upgrade after 20 years in aviation, is it just the moving around? The Netjets environment very demanding not just in terms flying but also on the challenges it presents to the company's commanders, on a daily (if not hourly) basis. The upgrade course is very short and with little time to develop peoples' captaincy skills. Also if you have the hours you can find yourself up for a command course in a very short time with little opportunity to find your feet in the operation. With the new career policy, the course is now two attempts only so if you have doubts about being ready it's something of a gamble. If you cannot honestly say that it was unfair or just unfortunate that you haven't held a command before then I suggest you stick with the environment you know. You have obviously been successful enough in to get the offer of a command. If you feel you have what it take though it is certainly a fun demanding but rewarding job working with some really good people.
• Plenty of people have gone to other companies like BA, Air France, KLM, Dragon Air, Cathy Pacific etc so I guess that NetJets wasn't too much of a black mark. This was even at a time when the company was not that well known - a mate who was being interviewed for AF was asked if we do CRM training at NetJets! Now we are much more well known and I think other companies will not look too badly on anyone coming from us to them.
• I think you can survive day to day. The guys on the smaller and medium cabin fleets tend to work hardest I think, however, once on the larger cabin life is definitely easier. Having said that over the last few years with the increasing number of aircraft scattered around the world, the individual on the line has seen things quieten down a lot – it now comes as a real shock having to fly 4 legs in a day
• 6 days away (or 5 nights really), if you have kids, can be hard. However, it depends a lot on their age and what they have been use to before. I find it works well because I'm always at home for big chunks of time which mean I can do more with my family when I'm home.
• Who knows – my gut feeling is that we are more recession proof than most conventional airlines and we are well funded for the forseeable future. However, never say never.

cldrvr. Sorry. In my defence I was logging off so didn't have time to get stuck in. Given the potentially inflamatory comments in the initial post I felt sure that someone would take it up.

Ok, let me correct that....

Used to be captain on F50 and CRJ.

Than went to the ME , where the only references used are jetairplanes with MTOW above 40000kgs, so I had to take the right seat again with the promise for an upgrade soon.

Waited waited waited, nothing happend but they kept me busy on long haul flying 330/340...typical arab mentality. Plus we where promised upgrades on the widebody fleets which overhere mean a MUCH better lifestyle!

So now after many many many moons, we finally got offered the baby bus.

So yes, not entirely my fault!


Regarding the questions.....


Sure you can always go back to commercial, but probably only as FO correct? I dont think any hours flown as PIC on any of the NJE aiplanes will actually help you further if looking for a job as PIC on an A320 or B737. Or am I wrong here?
I am just thinking about what happend to me before....really, these new so called five star airlines only look at MTOW!

:ok:

The airlines I quoted above, certainly at the time, would only take you as an FO anyway - as do NetJets.


However, I would think that you are probably correct with regard to operators that do take DECs although that is always going to depend on the market. Still that is there loss. A few years back I had dinner with a guy that had flown Concord with a "five-star" airline when he had just joined us. His Line Trainer was also there and this guy said that his Line Trainer had made more decisions in that week than he had made in 15 years flying Concord. I think many airlines miss the point in their recruitment strategy. Teaching someone to fly particular type of aircraft is not really that difficult – teaching them to be good Captains is a lot harder.

Looking at the current expansion of Netjets, I know its best to join ASAP to take full advantage of this expansion.

What if one would join in lets say 3-5 years? Would the same opportunities still be there or would you say that one would have missed the boat by then?

I was just thinking that, in view of a more secure future, it might be an option to take the command at my current employer and than join NJE after 1500hrs left seat Airbus.

It would not help my future within NJE, I know that, but it might provide a safer future on the long run!

Right or wrong?


Recession: maybe safer at NJE but would not want to see 1000 corporate pilots looking for a job at the same time!

mmm sounds like a reasonable plan to me - unless you are desperately unhappy at your current employer.

Bye the bye, in this thread you use the words GA and corporate. It would be wrong to characterise NetJets as either of these things since the similarities are only superficial - similar type of aircraft maybe but very different jobs and different types of organisations. Strange thing is, even given it's unique nature, people from all sorts of backgrounds find what they have been looking for in a job. Still not perfect but we seem to be getting there.

Q remains however.....

will there still be a reasonable career progression possible with NJE within 3-5 years or is it really that much better to join asap and forget all the rest!

I am aware that NJE has not that much to do with GA or the classic corporate environment, which is why I am really attracted to that job!
Believe me, if the lure of command would not be there I would not be asking all these questions and I would have joined yesterday!

A big thanks allready for your views and inputs!

Much appreciated!

Nobody knows whats coming tomorrow so whats the point in asking. You have to make your choice, your questions should include, do I want to be a line pilot and do pretty much the same thing everyday, or, do I want to be constantly surprised by my destinations, carry bags, organize almost everything and possibly be highly valued by my "passengers/principle/owner". I don't give a rats for anyone's opinion on my "value", horses for courses and this horse has only ever wanted to be in the corporate environment.;)

Hey Taxi...

Beware of falling into exactly the same "we don't do it like those guys" trap many an airline jock has regarding our sector of aviation. NJ is not alone in having a stable roster, well maintained a/c, strict adherance to SOPs, excellent training and, finally, decent pay. Happily, the whole sector has raised its game! :) I know where you're coming from but the commercial basis on which NJ is run does not distinguish it from what is, operationally, a GA/corporate model...

Shneider, don't limit yourself to NJ, there are now quite a few commercial operators who would be interested in the combined corporate experience and baby bus command you'll have in a few years. Your choice seems reasonably straightforward to me. But then it would, wouldn't it ;)

Best of Luck,
the Wings

Wings, which companies might that be?


I am more intrested in NJE because to me, it offers me the perfect transition from commercial to corporate aviation.

A solid structure, fixed roster patterns, fleet transfers, upgrades, good salary and descent career perspectives.

It sounds to me a lot like what I have been used to during my career, only with addition of certain elements so typical of corporate aviation and of course totally different types of airplanes.

I am actually thinking of leaving the command thing behind me, and just go for it! Take full advantage of the current expansion of NJE and don't waste time pursuing something which would not help me that much anyway at my future career...

But I guess thats not the straightforward decision you were aiming at, correct?

Thanks:ok:

Wings


Have to stand by what I said – and I didn't say anything about other operators standards, rostering or training. I'm sure there are many good operators in the GA and Corporate world. However, I'm equally sure there are a large number who are less good.


My comments were because NJE is not true corporate – flying for one owner or company, nor is it GA flying ad-hoc charter. Especially during a busy summer, flying 4 or 5 legs as one part of a huge jigsaw which constantly changes is a fairly unique challenge.

and who said anything about decent pay.....:rolleyes:

Interesting thread.
I would go for the command on the baby bus and then in a year or so go for the corporate job because at least in years to come should there be a slowing down in the industry then you are head of the next guy who didn't have command on that type.
I'm just about to enter the world of corporate jet work and leaving behind what I consider the high pressure go go go environment of turbo prop airline work. I know its not going to be easier but will present a diffferent set of problems to solve and I'm looking forward to it.

RP