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2020 Mandate
Good evening folks, Regarding the 2020 Mandate in the EUland, on top of the ADS-B OUT is the CPDLC required? To which aircrafts is applicable? cheers |
Originally Posted by B737-800W
(Post 10359655)
Good evening folks, Regarding the 2020 Mandate in the EUland, on top of the ADS-B OUT is the CPDLC required? To which aircrafts is applicable? cheers Now I put that question forward to Eurocontrol for "my" aircraft (C680) which is not exempt by that list although Cessna had an exemption years ago. Waiting now for roughly 3 weeks, but the guy is on leave right now.... and there is no CPDLC solution for my aircraft at least now. Eurocontrol moved my question to the EU-Commision by the way.... |
Originally Posted by His dudeness
(Post 10359673)
This is a good question. There is an exemption list by the EU-commission, but apparently Eurocontrol (!) lobbies for more exemptions. Partly, because the stuff not really works well, I was told.
Now I put that question forward to Eurocontrol for "my" aircraft (C680) which is not exempt by that list although Cessna had an exemption years ago. Waiting now for roughly 3 weeks, but the guy is on leave right now.... and there is no CPDLC solution for my aircraft at least now. Eurocontrol moved my question to the EU-Commision by the way.... |
Originally Posted by asdf1234
(Post 10359684)
Unless told otherwise then I think EU 2015/310 seems to be the definitive version of what is and isn't exempt.
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The Falcon EASy aircraft have CPDLC [ATN-1B) but are blocked by eurocontroll because the system had to many disconnects. Curious how that will be treated in 2020. Not my fault Eurocontrol blocked me. Apart from that. Why do we need CPDLC if half of the ATC centers don’t have CPDLC yet. |
Where can we find the exemption list? |
Possibly here but the whole EU Regulation thing is an impenetrable mess, so by now it may have been superseded/amended/corrected/buried in soft peat and/or eaten by leopards which are guarding it in the designated repository* where the original document is, of course, available to view at any time.
*Repository is an unmarked cellar. There is NO placard warning about the leopards. There are no stairs either. There IS a warning about the stairs being missing, however it is in a locked filing cabinet on the third floor. Of a different building. (With apologies to the late, great Douglas Adams who saw all this nonsense coming years ago). |
What about aircraft not listed in the annex but are no longer in production? Hawker 800 for example? |
Originally Posted by imriozer
(Post 10360934)
What about aircraft not listed in the annex but are no longer in production? Hawker 800 for example? Article 3 Operators - DLS Capability by 5 Feb 2020, except: • aircraft C of A first issued before 1 January 2014 and fitted with data link equipment (FANS) • aircraft C of A first issued before 31 December 2003 ceasing operation before 31 December 2022 • state aircraft • Testing/delivery/maintenance. Article 14 Exemptions Criteria eligibility • aircraft types reaching the end of their production life and being produced in limited numbers; and • aircraft types for which reengineering costs required would be disproportionate due to old design. Regulation applicable from 5 February 2018. |
Just curious... Can aircraft be fitted with FANS or ATN, in order to meet the mandate?
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Originally Posted by Cough
(Post 10361379)
Just curious... Can aircraft be fitted with FANS or ATN, in order to meet the mandate?
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Originally Posted by DEEC
(Post 10361865)
From my experience, ATN doesn't work in Europe.
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Originally Posted by B737-800W
(Post 10361829)
FANS is acceptable |
Got an answer from Eurocontrol & the EC to this question:
My name is xx and I fly a Cessna C680 for a German company. I found your name on the DLS Exemption Cell Third Consolidated Report dated in may 2013. I realize you have moved on, but can you point me someone actually in charge for this sorry mess CPDLC is for us in the field ? Nobody seems really to know wether our aircraft is/will be exempt and who really is in charge…Cessna just sent me the report and wrote „this document deals with the exemption“. Now a mere recommendation of exemption won´t really help now, would it ? I have found this list, NOT containing our aircraft: https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...er_29_2009.pdf Well, could you either give me an answer or point me to whom I would have to write now ? Would appreciate it, thanks. Thanks again for your question and for your patience whilst we discussed the subject with the European Commission. Herewith our response based on those discussions and our own information. To begin with, please find attached, for your information, a link to Commission Regulation (EC) No 29/2009 laying down requirements on data link services for the single European sky (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-conte...X%3A32009R0029) amended by Commission Implementing Regulation (EU) 2015/310 (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-conte...X%3A32015R0310). As far as Data Link Services are concerned, the two existing decisions (Commission Decision C(2011) 2611 final of 20.5.2011 on exemptions under Article 14 of Commission Regulation (EC) N° 29/2009 and Commission Implementing Decision C(2011) 9074 final of 9.12.2011 on exemptions under Article 14 of Commission Regulation (EC) N° 29/2009) are still applicable. They are available from the EC website at the following URLs: https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...009_fin_en.pdf https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...er_29_2009.pdf A third Decision, that had been planned some time ago, was never adopted. The EC is currently working on a minor revision of the Data Link Services Regulation to be followed in due time by a revised and consolidated decision on exemptions. For this decision, they will take due account of the retrofit costs for ageing aircraft reaching their end of life as well as a more recent report prepared by EASA (version 1.3, October 2017) on the basis of the EUROCONTROL report of 2013. These updates of the legal framework will most probably be adopted in the coming months. Regarding your specific question, considering the existing Decisions in force, aircraft of type Cessna C680 are not currently exempted. The first Decision indicated above did exempt this aircraft type but only for a short period of time which is now over. EASA suggest in their report of 2017 mentioned above that aircraft of that type should be exempted with the exception of the Sovereign+ model still in production and equipped with G5000. The EC confirmed to us that these matters will be examined during the preparation of the third Decision on exemptions indicated above. We believe that the EC intends to publish this in the coming months along with the amendment to the regulation. In short, although avionic solutions have evolved since 2013, the EC is still considering to exempt specific variants of the C680 for the 3rd decision. In other words, variants that are still under production are not likely to be exempt, older variants are being reviewed. Hope this helps |
Just talked to EASA, the gentleman there said he hopes that the EC will come out with their final decision in 1-2 months and that they follow their proposal:
In addition, we proposed a list of automatic exemptions including one which is specific for aircraft 19 pax or less and less than 100000 lbs, with a Cof A prior to 5 Feb 2020. I believe that except the criteria for non-commercial, EC should accept the rest of the proposals. |
I believe that except the criteria for non-commercial, |
Wouldn´t say that, Eurocontrol & EASA apparently wanted to exempt all pvt ops aircraft. The gentleman I talked to meant, that this might be a tad to broad for the EC. If you´re below 100.000lbs and 19 seats the chances are good for an exemption. That said, aircraft that are in this category and are able (say G5000 equipped A/C) will not be exempt. In our case, operating a "classic" C680 (Honeywell EPIC), we would be exempt, if we´d upgrade to a C680+ (G5000 equipped) we wouldn´t. However, there should be a clearer understanding who is exempt and who is not within 1-2 months, if the EC does their job.
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His dudeness do you think a privatly 2009 Challenger 300 with "old" Collins Proline 21 would be exempt?
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Originally Posted by 3pins
(Post 10377570)
His dudeness do you think a privatly 2009 Challenger 300 with "old" Collins Proline 21 would be exempt?
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"N680C Delivery"
"Delivery 80C go ahead" "N680C advise new slot time is 20.25" "ah roger that, new slot 20.25. We will actually be ready in about 10 minute, 680 charlie" "November eight zero charlie, that is the year 2025. out". |
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