well that fair enough - its your plane. What do you do with the flaps on a go-around? Do you fairly smartly go from flap land to whatever the take off setting is or sit about for a bit, just in case? The difference between taking the flap passing V2+10 and waiting for 400 feet is probably not much in terms of drag but I think its important for pilots to make flap settings for the right reason and that reason is the speed, not the height.

and... where the hell does it come from!! If its so ingrained that Flight Safety are now writing checklists in conjunction with Cessna the thick will plotten!!

..just saying..

my grand is still safe.. ;)

FAR 25 section 111, used notes please in a bag marked Kak to be left at TAG Farnborough.

JAR/FAR 25 certification states no config changes below 400 AGL, (other than prop feathering if my memory serves me right)

Send the grand to a Cancer Research UK please.

Come on guys, FSI would not unilaterally make things up in their training.

Oh and the 1,500 is the end of the takeoff path if anyone wonders where that number comes from, unless the enroute altititude is below that, can't think of an airport that has an enroute segment below 1,500 but wait to stand corrected on that one.

Let me correct myself here.

FAR 25 section 111 and JAR 25 certification are both in the event of the failure of the most critical powerplant. It says so right at the top. Also, it makes sense. If all the engines are running you can raise the flap at the flap up speed. This is where the confusion comes from and is why FSI teach it so badly. They spend all their time teaching people to fly away with one engine out and virtually no time at all teaching people to take advantage of all them jets..

This is the reason that no manufacturer mentions 400 feet during an all engines operating departure.

Is a two way bet and I'm two grand up now. Cheque going to the dogs home.

No it is not.

Its a mood thing, you know, if feel like doing it quick, then... :)

Apples and Oranges....going from Flaps 7° or 15° to 0°, or 35° to 15°....from 35° to 15° you more or less just reduce drag, from 15° or 7° to 0° its more about lift, IIRC...

And in the checklist is says:

All Engine Go-Around
1. Go-Around Button (either throttle)..................... Push
2. Throttles ....................................TO Detent
3. Airplane Pitch Attitude........................ 7.5°Initially
(FD go-around command), then As Required
4. Flaps............................................ 15°
5. ClimbSpeed..................................... VAPP
6. LandingGear ......................................UP
And here we go again:
7. Flaps........................... 0°(VAPP+10knots and at or above 400 feet AGL)
8. Airspeed..................................As Required
9. Throttle ...................... MCT Detentor As Required
10. YawDamper................................ As Desired
11. Autopilot ................................... As Desired

BTW, from 7° to 0° takes ages, even If I´d be half as alert as you are and change the setting ASAP (say at 200ft minimums), the flaps wouldn´t be in below 1000-ft...

My Friends

Don't get confused, it's 400/1500 ABOVE THE TAKE OFF SURFACE.

We like FSI insist that after V1 commit, the crew "figuratively" or mentally sit on their hands until you get to 400ft ABOVE the take off surface, from a certification viewpoint there is no requirement for any action including EFATO actions and it reduces the opportunity for fumble thumbs and provides for an orderly, thoughtful and disciplined reaction.

The certification rules and the jet turbine now provide the opportunity to avoid a reactive response, denied Part 23 pilots and the old CAR 4 types where quick but accurate responses often meant the difference between hero or zero.:{

Tom, thanks for the stimulation but I'm not yet sure about who owns the grand. :cool:

hey... that wouldnt be a flight safety checklist would it?

and CLdriver

straight out of the FAR's, 25.111, I draw your attention to note 2 in the conditions for the net take off path..

(a) The takeoff path extends from a standing start to a point in the takeoff at which the airplane is 1,500 feet above the takeoff surface, or at which the transition from the takeoff to the en route configuration is completed and VFTO is reached, whichever point is higher. In addition --

(1) The takeoff path must be based on the procedures prescribed in §25.101(f);

(2) The airplane must be accelerated on the ground to VEF, at which point the critical engine must be made inoperative and remain inoperative for the rest of the takeoff; and

(3) After reaching VEF, the airplane must be accelerated to V2.

(b) During the acceleration to speed V2, the nose gear may be raised off the ground at a speed not less than VR. However, landing gear retraction may not be begun until the airplane is airborne.

(c) During the takeoff path determination in accordance with paragraphs (a) and (b) of this section --

(1) The slope of the airborne part of the takeoff path must be positive at each point;

(2) The airplane must reach V2 before it is 35 feet above the takeoff surface and must continue at a speed as close as practical to, but not less than V2, until it is 400 feet above the takeoff surface;

(3) At each point along the takeoff path, starting at the point at which the airplane reaches 400 feet above the takeoff surface, the available gradient of climb may not be less than --

everybody is happy with what happens if the engine fails at V1 because thats what we all spend a load of time learning about. But we don't properly consider what happens if it fails a bit further up the take off path and often don't even have figures for what happens if, god forbid, all the engines keep running.

If an engine fails above the flap up speed it doesnt matter where you are in the takeoff path the airframe should be clean. Thats part of why this matters. Lots of folk are well above and are still dirty. Often they have reduced the power a bit to contain the climb and if a powerplant then fails they are well into the draggy bit of the curve. Because they've reduced the power to hold the deck angle and keep the climb rate sensible they now have to set max cont and focus hard to get the aircraft back to V2 to make sure they are climbing properly. Where are they on the vertical SID profile? nobody knows..

If they are clean at the point where it fails they still have to set max cont on the remaining power plant but only have to come back to V2+10 or in reality, Venr. They will climb better than they would flapped and are in a better position because they had to reduce speed by a smaller amount and therefore incurred less of a drag penalty.

There is no downside in doing it correctly!

(be honest, has this got you thinking..)

Tm, don't have the regs to hand here so can't give you the exact reference until later tonight.

Have a look at the AMC, I am 99% sure on the top of my head that there is a reference to all engine operating in there with regards to the 400'.

If you don't have a copy to hand, I will post the reference later here.

I went through this discussion with a company pilot who was right seat to me during Caravan flight testing I was doing. The company pilot was horror struck when I retracted the flaps from 20 to 10 as I accelerated through the appropriate speed, irrespective of altitude - on a deliberately flat takeoff. He was so shaken by this, he had trouble expressing his concern. I bit shaken myself from his reaction, I went back to the Flight Manual, to be sure I had no missed something important during my first read. Nope, no reference to a minimum AGL for flap retraction, so I had flown the aircraft within the terms of the Flight Manual. He was annoyed when I pointed that out to him. "But... but.. what if you'd had an engine failure...?". "Well, I'd rather enter a glide with less drag, so if the speed is right, I would rather have the lesser amount of flaps extended. I can re-extend them any time I want". He did not agree, but could not present an argument to this logic either. He decided to stop his resistance when I pointed out that the Flight Manual states for a balked landing (which is kind of like a takeoff) to retract the flaps to 20 right after you apply power - not wait for any particular altitude before a configuration change!

The quoted FAR is a design requirement, it is not an operational regulation. The aircraft must demonstrate the stated capability, that FAR is not telling you that you have to fly it that way, just that it can be done.

If a Flight Manual tells you that you must or should, then you should. If the person who owns the plane says "fly it this way" then you should if you want to keep your employer happy. Otherwise, fly the plane safely, operate the flaps within the limiting speeds, and select the flaps as you require them.

is nobody else seeing a common thread here...

how the hell did pythagoras convince the people that the earth was an oblate spheroid? oh wait... that happened a thousand years later when Magellen sailed round it..

why is there a slavish addiction to a rule that's painfully obviously rubbish just because its what we all thought was right? This is a bad industry to just blindly accept what you're told. Its important to actually understand.

Still up for the bet.

The only that matters is that they are above the REQUIRED profile. (the OEI profile usually)... Which they certainly are if they had to reduce power to keep deck angle & ROC 'sensible'.

By how much I´m above a required altitude is not really of interest, IMHO.

They have enough speed to come back gently to V2 whilst adding power back to MCT.

Q.: what do you do if you need, say, a 6% gradient to 7000ft above the airport, you depart, collect your flaps at 400ft, set MCT & accelarate in the climb and then eat a goose at 2000ft. Lets say your at 160 KIAS at the time, V2 would be 116 and Venr 180.

Do you accelerate to Venr or pull back to V2 and reset flaps? Or V2 without flaps? Or just stay at the present speed?

I give up. :ugh: it's worse than talking to my teenage daughters.

You do exactly what it says in the manual. You should have taken the flap at V2+10 (is it for the soverign?) so you should be clean. You are above 1500 feet so you confirm which one had gone bang, select MCT on the other one and an appropriate pitch for Venr or dial it into FLC and continue the climb for 7000 feet.

The airframe climbs better clean than it does with flap. You take off with flap to reduce the take off roll and keep the groundspeed down for the tyres and to make sure the brakes can cope with an RTO. Once in the air and above the speed that you can retract them you get rid of them because now they are only producing extra drag.

If this stuff was taught properly it wouldn't even be a question.

on the bright side, if we sort this out now we don't have to think about it when it happens!

out of interest, does anyone actually agree with me?

apart from klaxon's kids?