Yup, all these N-reg owners are either gonig to sell their aircraft and fly Ryanair (of course nobody in Europe is going to buy those aircraft, they will all end up in the US and Asia) while some other owners are going to root up their business, family and friends and move to Africa so they can continue using their aircraft.


Blimey, I am in a sarcastic mood today.

You certainly have a warped view of the aviation world.

It's not unusual though.

A while ago I went to an aviation presentation. Got talking to one well lunched (well rounded) chappie, who turned out to work for the CAA. We exchanged a few words on GA and he went off on a rant on how N-regs evade maintenance etc etc etc (all the usual crap). I then asked him what he flew (as one does); it turned out he had never even had a PPL and had never flown anything. His aviation education seemed to have come wholly from others like him, and the Daily Mail. I know there are plenty of real pilots in the CAA but they also have a load of bad eggs like this one. The moment he learnt I was an aircraft owner and god forbid actually flew to places, he excused himself :E

Flyingfemme has it spot on.

BTW if I was going to illegal charters, or better still fly a plane without any maintenance, pilot license or medical, and fly IFR all over Europe, guess which reg I would pick? G or N?

Explain to me why my view is so warped, the N-reg boys are abusing a loophole, the loophole is now shut. You live and work in the EU, you follow the rules here, don't like it? Go live somewhere else.

This ruling is long overdue and welcomed by 99% of the pilots and operators here.

I do feel for those who are going to lose their jobs, but you were lucky you got away with it for this long.


The VAT boys are surely licking their fingers in anticipation too.

Tell me, cldrvr, when you pay your income tax, and the allowance is say £7k, and your gross is say 20k, do you pay tax on 13k, or do you do the socially responsible thing as a proper citizen of the united republic of europe and pay tax on the whole 20k?

The latter is the morally correct way. On top of that, if you really want to occupy the moral high ground, you sell your plane and donate the proceeds to the next Bangladesh flood appeal (due in about 2 weeks' time, usually). Or give it to Greece. (I'd approve of that; I fly there often; love the islands).

What a complete load of bollox about a "loophole". The UK signed a treaty called ICAO, which according to my very nearly (thankfully) forgotten JAA IR theory was signed in 1944 (or was it 1945, no WW2 ended then didn't it...) and this treaty permits aircraft to travel freely, subject to certain limits when operating commercially. Almost all countries have signed it. Most civilised countries have implemented it to a reasonable degree for private ops, and with a tight oversight regime for commercial ops.

Everybody knows the sensible way to approach this issue: align the Euro and the FAA systems. Nobody actually wants to be on the N-reg. It's a hassle.

Why don't the euro communists do that? Because aviation regulation here is little to do with safety. It's all to do with job protection, job creation, organised labour related working practices, all that kind of crap. Most of the people involved are too short sighted to see beyond the end of their nose. And you are one of them. No doubt, if you park your jet next to another jet which is bigger and has a toilet which can be externally emptied, you will go all green with envy and sneak up to it and loosen its landing gear brake hoses.

I want to know about this too massive cost saving opportunity too, please.

Email if preferred :ok:

They might realine in 10-20 years time. BUt they can't do it now until all the previous people that went N reg in europe have been made to convert over so they haven't recieved any benefit compared to those that have stuck with local reg.

It is a loophole you have to use as a none US person to even be able to own your plane. If it was only US passport holders or even green card holders that had N reg in Europe nobody would give a toss.

But you pay a company to hold your plane in trust which as a none US citizen your not allowed to own, with a N reg.

Looks like a loophole to me.

I am struggling to understand what loop hole everybody is referring to.

N reg in Europe are generally VAT paid (no AOC so no getting 0% rated) and yes those loop holes are closed (example: Danish 2010), and you would not want to fly in France without having this little VAT paid cetificate.

They pay the same NAV, airport, fuel fees and because they are not AOC they pay duties and VAT.

Jet crews need to be type rated and proficient thus every year off to the States for recurrent and they even changed their policies to have rated SIC.
Plus some owners and operators keep the standard and do 6 monthly recurrent’s.

Fair enough the Licence process has been the focus now because it is apparently cheaper, which it is, and yet proved again and again on par or better than most counterparts in safety. Just because you went the JAR route and suffered financially and mentally in obtaining it is not my problem.

In the Middle East many nationalities and licences mix in the cockpit and fly everywhere in the world and operate to, IMHO, a better standard than many European operations.

I have not heard anywhere that you can't own and operate a non N reg in the States, the only reason its not done because it does not make sense.

Yes i am in the same boat, but as my wife said "we have done Angola to Afghanistan, if the European mentality is now receded to a dictatorship we lived with it in the past we will do what we always do and just move on."

Personally I don’t earn the high flying salary that we all dreamed about when the dream of flight came to me, if it was a simple process and if there was recognition for my experience I would have gladly followed the line but I can't afford it and thats the sad truth.

I have 4 licences from four different countries and validations from another 3 and have always been able to comply but this time I am out. I will fly till the non-elected prosecute me and then I move on.

Sadly I am finally getting settled in my current home and its a shame to uproot my wife and son but hey what would life be without a struggle.

P.S

As a side note, I run and manage the operation I am in, it has been 6 long years of swallowing my pride and dealing with some very difficult people, if they don’t find people like myself and the other guys in it, this is one operation that will terminate. Which is a shame?

Perhaps the N reg guys should have spent less time telling the world how crap the JAA was and how easy the FAA IR was and kept there head down.....

As I have said many times before, I don't agree with what has happened as it is petty, but it was pretty inevitible. Keep poking a hornets nest and gloating about it and you will get stung. The little men in EASA have really stung you this time.

I think this whole episode has illustrated how meaningless the concept of regulatory oversight at a national level (or indeed EU level) has become in aviation, I mean the whole thing being dependent on the letter painted on your plane etc or where you live or whose air you happen to frequent. In an ideal world the USA and the EU would just agree on common standards for licencing, airspace etc, everyone's lives would be so much easier. Not going to happen, but would be nice. :)

For what he is doing, Cathar is paid very well by EASA. He is not a PR coordinator (AFAIK he doesn't work in EASA's communications and external relations department), but has been lying on a number of occasions to the interested GA public about the Basic Regulation (drafting) and its likely implications and further implementations. As such, he is very ill-positioned to answer your question.

At Paygrade 14, he makes about € 14000 + expat allowance + benefits a month, all minimally taxed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Coming back to 4x4's original query, I find it hard to believe that you, if you are in employment, the new implementation of part FCL would actually have legal precedence over your current employment and the article 15 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the EU. Surely your legal council should be able to tell you who to sue should you lose employment over it.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

A few people obviously have some axes to grind in this forum. Examiners like bose-x (?) and billliebob (?) have a clear pecuniary interest in gold plating the FCL scene, with as many pointless recurrent flight tests as possible. Even if a logical natural conversion / grandfathering process form FAA papers to EASA papers were introduced, they would make a killing.
The same goes for Flight Training Organisations, that count on many useless but expensive conversions. In view of the many UK FTO's involved in the foul lobbying process over the last couple of years, I would advise anyone interested in EASA flight training to go abroad (Spain, Portugal and Greece spring to mind).


---------------------------------------------------------------------

Normally any reasonable person would be pro a simple straightforward uniform European regulatory environment in aviation. The fact of the matter is that it doesn't exist, because Member States keep clinging towards their own little quircks and exceptions in countless different subdomains.
If you cannot agree on a single European airspace, you shouldn't have a € 100+ Million annual budget organisation like EASA producing one incomprehensable and silly rule after the other. As such you are crippling and in the end you're just destroying an entire industry.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

EASA comitology is a perfect example of the current democratic deficit in Europe. You have an organisation without much oversight and accountability that can sprout rules like a bad case of writer's diarrhea. The production process of these rules lacks any kind of transparency and every now and again, rules are produced that go well beyond EASA's mandate. In addition, EASA and the Commission make a mockery of their own so called "Code of Good Administrative Behaviour", leaving the general public in the cold.
Oversight by the Commission comes in the form of blackmail by a bunch of frustrated and I dare say incompetent Aviation Safety "experts" like Eckard Seebohm. EASA is forced to do what they say, because the Commission can virtually eliminate large chunks of EASA's budget with a few keystrokes.
Oversight by the European Parliament is only there in theory. The Commission is also in a position to blackmail them, because the Commission has the sole prerogative to propose legislation. The average member of the Transport Committee in the EP doesn't really understand the issues or wants to press other issues. I found out that Brian Simpson folded partly because the Commission threatened to thwart some of his Rail-related ideas, so go figure.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I find it a pity that so much of this mess is driven by "hating America"*. The rantings of clvrdr, which show a clear lack of understanding of the N-reg scene, are the latest painful example. People are not N-reg because they want to dodge taxes, but because they want a straightforward training scene, a straightforward maintenance process and pay fees commensurate with services rendered.

*Sure, there are quite of few topics where the behaviour of our starred and striped friends has been anything but exemplary, but I do have the impression that they understand what aviation is all about. If I were to design a rulebook for Europe, I would take a good look at what title 14 CFR has on offer, throw away their protectionist nonsense, focus on the safety related bits that have a history and use that as a basis for a pan-european aviation legislation. But that would be under the assumption that the European Member States actually want a uniform and clear and straighforward aviation rulebook.

I am very obviously confused about where I work (and how much I earn)! Thank you for the clarification.

I would be interested to know who I am in proudprivate's world - and what colour the sky is there.

No. Assuming that you're now maintaining JAA/EASA licences and ratings on top of your FAA ones, you won't be doing any renewals anyway - just revalidations. Sounds pedantic but it may become an important difference in the next few months ;).

Your JAR PPL is currently revalidated on a 5 year cycle by admin action. Next time round it'll be reissued as an EASA PPL and thus valid for life. Your SEP rating, on the other hand, is valid for 2 years. It can be revalidated either by test or by experience. The experience route requires 12 hours in the 2nd year, inc 6 P1 and 1 full hour with an FI. This hour with an FI can be replaced by any successful test, eg I've never revalidated my own SEP rating by an hour with an instructor, I've always used a test instead, be it FI test, MEP, IR, etc. In the (unlikely I know!) event that you haven't managed the experience requirements then your IR reval can also be combined into a SEP reval with some additional items. Some examiners will charge extra for this, but the paperwork itself for a revalidation by experience is free :).

That's what I was getting at.

If I fly say 150hrs in a year, the annual IR renewal should be usable as the PPL revalidation. The instructor I am most likely to do the IR renewal with can also do PPL initial skills tests, etc.

FWIW I've always had a UK/JAA PPL and a UK medical. But I let the 5 year admin renewal lapse because I didn't need it. I always kept up the medicals because I use an AME who does both at the same time. I then redid the PPL with an examiner.

Peter, you did not need to 'revalidate' your JAA PPL, but you did need to get it re-issued every 5 years. This was a purely administrative process and required only that you held a valid medical and had held a type or class rating valid within the preceding 5 years. No specific test or experience requirements existed for the re-issue of the licence, particularly not the PPL Skill Test or any part of it.

A successful IR proficiency check currently may count as the 'training flight with an instructor' required to revalidate a SEP Class Rating by experience. However, under the new rules (i.e. from 1 July), only a class or type rating proficiency check or skill test will count for this purpose.

I'm not sure where MJ is coming from with the statement that there will be "no more renewals - just revalidations". The same distinction between revalidation before expiry and renewal after expiry remains in respect of all ratings and certificates under the EASA implementing rules.

Maybe that's why I had to do a (more or less) PPL skills test. I left it for 6 years. I got the original PPL in 2001, didn't renew it in 2006, and when I came to "recover it" in ~2008 I had to do the skills test. Are you saying this wasn't needed?

The only revals I did were in 2002 (IMCR skills test) and one in 2004.

I had the FAA papers since 2004.

Regarding using the IR renewal (with some additional VFR work) for the PPL reval, it would seem to me that this is a private matter between you and the IRE - unless some regulation states that you have to actually land between the two.

I have been asked to write a reply in here by a group of fellow Pilots. They are currently in the final stages of creating a new Association for Pilots in Europe.

The Association is to be for all groups of aviation within Europe and will primarily work on allowing Pilots to have a greater say in the various issues that has lately been coming from EASA/JAA/CAA and so forth.

No matter if it is the Private Pilot, Biz-jet Pilot or Airline Pilot, they feel that we all as pilot's has the right to be heard, and not just be put on the sideline which can be seen in this thread yet again has happened.

There currently are only a few organizations/groups in Europe working all the issues that has come up in the past years, but they feel that more can be done.

Issues as we seen just within the past year like Duty-time limitations to increase together with several others just can not go on without a fight.

So they would like me to post this here and try to see if others feel the same way and if they can find support from fellow Pilots who would be interested to Join once everything is finalized. It is of-cause FREE.

Currently the last few steps to be completed are the finalizing of the website/logo a a few other items that will all be completed within a short time.

Once everything is ready they will like to welcome all fellow pilots interested to join as free members and have a say in the general outline of the issues that we feel must be pushed. Together with creating a Board of Pilots who will take the lead in talking to the various Aviation and Government bodies throughout Europe.

Thanks

4 x 4 has the right attitude, and I would strongly suggest that other pilots currently employed and flying on FAA Certs in Europe do not pay a euro cent to convert their licences to EASA.

This is indeed against human rights laws (discrimination) and it will be met with lawsuits. Mad Jock's rants about being jailed for not complying etc show him for the ill educated school boy that he is. A pathetic attempt at scaremongering by the pack mentality of him and Cldrvr that share one brain cell between them.

I strongly suggest to EASA that pilots currently employed on FAA Certs in Europe are immediately issued with an equivalent EASA licence with no conversion required.

This isn't exactly new, I can recall years ago when JAA first arrived on the scene that many FAA qualified pilots employed in certain newly accepted European countries, were actually given equivalent licences under JAA if requested without the need for conversion.

So, either accept this EASA, or get writing a very large cheque.

Oh, and I haven't heard of anyone being arrested in European member states who are flying on FAA Certs where the Country hasn't deferred implementation until 2014. They would find it impossible as most Pilots probably haven't heard of this pathetic ruling from the comatose bottom feeder sessions in Brussels.

Ain't going to happen unless FAA issue certs to EASA license holders under the same terms.

You can't sue for a legislation change affecting you.

We will see what comes out in the wash.

I suspect that this has been planned for years and just now its in the final play.

As bose says folk have been poking them for years and now they have got the reaction.

Mad Jock, Yes, I can sue for a legislation change affecting me. You really don't know anything do you ? Your must have a really high opinion of yourself to think that you act as policeman, judge and EASA spokesman.

Just what we need, yet another organisation thinking they should represent pilots but will just add to the confusion.

Spend your time productivity by getting pilots to support the voices they already have.

You might be free now, but that's not a sustainable model. Travel to meetings etc as well as websites, technology etc all need paying for.

Bose has never been among those poking them, of course ;)

Funny how people adjust their forum posts as it suits.

There are many other examples but I have better things to do than spend time digging them out.

Such hypocrisy.

CLDRVR quote:
"I can see exactly where the EU is coming from, they want to regulate the aircraft based and operated within the EU and are no longer tolerating non EU registered aircraft based within its borders, what is wrong with that"?

I assume this means that all M registered aircraft based in Europe will be affected and told to operate from Ronaldsway Airport on a permanant basis as the I-O-M is not a member of the EU.

"Just what we need, yet another organisation thinking they should represent pilots but will just add to the confusion.
Spend your time productivity by getting pilots to support the voices they already have.
You might be free now, but that's not a sustainable model. Travel to meetings etc as well as websites, technology etc all need paying for."


U currently only have AOPA, as the majority which is not many of other associations/organizations are either Airline Specific or created for the Airline pilots. You do not find one that pulls all together for a common goal.

The once that started never succeeded...

Reason being that it is free is that one of the founders are more then well off, and a GA Pilot who likes to make sure everyone is head at the government bodies... But thanks for being positive, it sure is going well in the aviation community right now right??? ;-)

Never denied being an N reg pilot, proud of the fact. Just that I have not spent my life goading the CAA etc with how much better and easier the FAA system. You in the other hand spent years convincing everyone how much better it was and easier and ramming it down the throats of the CAA's. You assured us that a ban or restriction would never work because you had such a powerful voice in Europe with the business operators. I just pointed out that most business crews were already dual qualified and the impact on them would be fairly minimal. They never came to your aid as forecast.

I told you a number of years ago thus would happen, but rather than listen you did as you ae doing now,resorted to childish efforts to discredit me.

I will admit to getting great pleasure out of you being proved wrong,despite the fact that I actually don't support it as I don't think it benefits flight safety at all.

Funny how you changed your tune in the end and got yourself a JAA PPL/IR though. Now who is the hypocrite?

At the end of the day it does not impact me as I have been dual qualified for years but I do feel for the guys whose careers this basically ends for nothing more than politics.

And when they get bored or run out of money or realise how selfish the pilot population is and get pissed of and quit, where does the money come from?

Not to mention that if you can't even research who else is in the game how do you expect to get a place at the table? There are several representative bodies in the pot, all with a place at the table.

Your attempt is laudable but naive.

Haha Reading your previous post on the forum makes do make you sound like a grumpy old man that's just gone through a divorce... Good one for having a constant negative towards the majority of people who post on this forum!!!!

:ok:

What determents where an aircraft is "based"?

The EASA wording is on where the Operator is based.

The location (or usual location) of the aircraft might one day feature in somebody's interpretation of where the Operator is based, but currently it appears nothing to do with it.

One definition of an Operator is whoever controls where the aircraft flies. This leads to various pretty obvious solutions/workarounds for many higher-end ops. It is not helpful for the typical single private owner-pilot (like myself) but if e.g. you imagine an aircraft rental outfit which is based on the IOM which runs a booking website, and owns the aircraft, and can refuse any given booking attempt, then presumably that outfit is the Operator.

And if I can think of that, I am sure that aviation lawyers are well on the case already.

It's just the small people that are getting shafted by EASA, not the bigger stuff which is emotionally the biggest red rag to the anti foreign reg bulls.

If EASA made it as easy for an FAA pilot to convert to a EASA PPL/ATPL or whatever as it currently is for a EASA holder to go to the US and get an equivalent FAA licence then there would be no problem...

More political questions, like the ease of foreigners working in the respective countries is a slightly different question...


Great so see this thread getting personal...:ugh::ugh:

People are so afraid that uhhh all the foreigners are gonna come steal our jobs in Europe.... That's a bunch of BULL....

It is by far HARDER to get a Work-permit for an American in Europe then it is for a European to get hired by an American company....

Reason why it does not happen a lot in the states is that most companies do not wanna waist their time on the application process which is actually quite simple...

Ya I got the right to live and work in both the states and in Europe and i had to hire both Europeans in the states and TRIED to hire foreigners in Europe which was a MUCH greater Hazel!!!

EASA and not only EASA but the majority of Aviation government bodies like CAA and others around Europe, are being governed by a bunch of grumpy old men/woman where some of them may have seen a cockpit back in the 70's but thats about it... Dont believe me?? checkout the CAA offices in Gatwick (uk) NOTHING but old folk's who would benefit more from sitting at a retirement home then with their right hand on the aviation law's in Europe.

Can it be more retarded then it is right now? Sure it can and it will as long as you have a government body like EASA which is full of 50% old and narrow-minded x-aviators and 50% paper-pushers who got absolutely no knowledge of any kind when it comes to Aviation.

Which regulations has come up lately that has had ANY benefit towards any pilot right now????

Not long ago 100 Airline pilots from Europe who did the 14 JAA exams 5 Years + ago sat down and did 2 Multiple Choice JAA ATPL Exams as a study to see how well the great JAA training still stuck... needless to say that 94% FAILED BOTH TEST.

But the matter of fact is that the BIGGEST difference between Europe and the rest of the world are these 14 exams.

"Do your 14 exams and take an ATPL skill-test and now ur ok to fly in Europe, they said to John who was 54 and 13000hrs flying all types of private and airlines" **** OFF John said ill rather just join Emirates!! Which he did!!!

What are the reasons that the new rule is gonna take place? Is it a safety Issue???? NO not at all the problems facing should that be the reason would be beyond anything else as that directly would say that FAA/ICAO Pilots are ****ty compared to European Pilots!!!! Is it an issue about foreigners stealing the job's from Europeans?? No not that either!!! Is it the tax issues that was big 3-5 years ago... No not really that Either cos we already go the regulations stating that an aircraft is only allowed to stay in a European country for X-amount of time...

Well what the fxxxx is it then!!!!

I flown for over 12 years not yes not a lot compared to others, and all i see is an Aviation system that is rotting more then ever:\

Peter, what you did to get your PPL re-issued was a class rating skill test, not the PPL skill test. The IR proficiency check will not in itself go any way towards revalidating or renewing a SEP class rating.

There is no reason that the CRE/IRR who conducts the IR proficiency check cannot also conduct a class rating proficiency check in the same flight but they remain two distinct and separate checks (and entirely separate from the PPL skill test). It is the ability to use the IR proficiency check in place of the training flight with an instructor that is removed under Part-FCL

There seems to be a lot of informed people here. Could someone reply to my earlier post. Will M reg aircraft be affected as the Isle of Man is not in the EU?

Do you have any details of that experiment? It doesn't suprise me; in the 7 JAA IR exams I did last year, at least 90% was not relevant to any form of aviation.

Many thx BillieBob for that info. It will save a bit of money.
Current "wisdom" seems to be that if the Operator is in the IOM then the pilot(s) will not need EASA papers.

This is dead handy for private owner-pilots who live on the IOM, or in the Channel Islands, all of whom appear to be totally protected from the EASA measure.

Thomas have a look at post 26 on this thread. You can't.

yes of course he can.
 

Dear MJ,

Post #26 is about "locus standi" in European law. The cases drummed up by our honourable and learned friend have their roots in competition law. It basically boils down to the fact that representing organisations such as Balpa, N-Flyers, Aopa etc... cannot sue the Commission "on behalf of their members".

But obviously any individual Balpa member or any individual Aopa member or any individual citizen, if affected, can sue the Commission over a violation of Article 15 of the Charter (or any other article of any relevant treaty or rule - discrimination springs to mind too). And if half a dozen citizens sue at the same time on the same grounds, then cases are often merged. It then simply becomes "Bloggs, Jones, The Republic of Ireland, Cirrus Europe Ltd and the Bishop of Durham versus the Commission" or something like that. It'll take them 12-18 months to get to a decision, and it'll cost around € 10,000 in legal fees, but considering that the rest of his career is at stake, I'd say it's worth the time and effort.

So instead of "having a look" at post #26, I would suggest clvdr and yourself actually read it.

We shall see what comes out in the wash.

To be honest its not really worth arguing about.

They obviously have a plan, even if EASA goes tits up now the regulation is now on the books of every country. You would have to get every country to change it again.

Maybe thats been there plan from the start, get a heap of legislation through which is going to cause uproar then disappear.

Suddenly there is nobody to sue and your looking at working through every countries court systems to try and get it changed.

OK I'm very tempted to join in this discussion of EU lawmaking...I subject that I know a little bit about...but I'll leave that one to others...

I've contacted the DGAC (French CAA), their answer was an astounding 'we have no clue, check the EASA website'.
Nevertheless they were able to report that in France, the transition period will last not 2 but 1 year.

More info (or lack of) there, in french:
Reconnaissance des licences - Ministère du Développement durable

France is an interesting case, because they have their own IR. It appears to be for private pilots only, however.

The whole thing is a mystery because France, of all people, would have the inside track on internal EASA workings.

Well noticed - I hadn't got that far in reading Part-FCL, still busy rewriting course manuals to remain compliant. In the old days we would have had a NOTEX by now...