Warning: Old logic & experience don't necessarily apply!
 

While pulling the trim cb WAS a good idea in the past, doing so in this aircraft would be my absolute last resort (and no collar would be necessary, as they are all virtual CBs, many of which are grayed out, not allowing the pilot to mess with them)!!! There are numerous switches and computer coding that can really ruin your day when you stumble across them unexpectedly. These new flying computers do not lend themselves to pilot techniques of old - be careful! Follow the established procedures in exactly the correct order, or you will find you have become a test pilot and have probably created a handful of additional problems for yourself.

Latest Update
 

The pitch runaway problem has not yet been resolved however Dassault has provided the following information regarding the May 25th incident and how they’re dealing with the problem. While descending through 12,000 feet at 300 kias, the incident aircraft experienced an uncommanded pitch up and climbed to 23,000 feet. At that point, the crew was able to regain control and declared an emergency. A normal landing followed at its destination airport in Malaysia.

Dassault has advised that all appropriate resources have been diverted from their normal duties to focus solely on finding this event’s cause and deploying a solution. They have a team of engineers from their flight test centre and design office and a customer service team on-site with the incident aircraft. Additionally, an engineering response team has been created and is on duty 24/7 to collect and analyse the aircraft’s data.

Dassault cannot give an accurate estimate on when the fleet will return to service.

Dassault is in the process of defining a procedure intended to allow the conduct a safe ferry flight to a convenient destination of the operator's choice. This procedure is being tested but not yet validated. Dassault's target is to have it approved early in the week.

This is interesting to visualize. If you're descending, the power is usually at or near idle. To pitch up and gain 11,000 Ft seems unprecedented.

Any comments from 7x pilots? Anything special about the auto throttles, AP disconnect, pitch trim, elevator control, or anything about the fly-by-wire that could cause this?

As a G550 pilot, I'm hoping I can get Gulfstream to issue an ASC to install cables and pulleys in my new G650!

FR

"Also, the French Air Force has one that flies the President!"

Two of the Republique Francaise ones parked up at Deauville yesterday, I assumed they were left over from the G8 summit.

Two Russian ones there as well.

Nigeria’s new N7bn presidential jet banned worldwide
By Agency reporter

Saturday, 28 May 2011


Almost 70 days after the new N7.65bn presidential jet, Falcon 7X, touched down at the Nnamdi Azikiwe International Airport, Abuja, from the manufacturer’s factory in France, Dassault Aviation, France European authorities have banned the jet from flying in Europe and other parts of the world over safety issues.

The ban, an Emergency Airworthiness Directive, which was issued on Thursday by the European Aviation Safety Agency, the agency that regulates Dassault as well as the European aviation industry, took immediate effect, starting from May 27.

The EASA’s grounding of the worldwide fleet of Dassault’s Falcon 7X executive jets came hours after one of the aircraft encountered an in-flight anomaly that could have caused the pilots to lose control.

The EASA directive, which was published on Thursday, said that the jet “experienced an uncontrolled pitch trim runaway during descent. The crew succeeded in recovering a stable situation and performed an uneventful landing.”

An analysis of the plane’s Digital Flight Data Recorder and Fault History Database confirmed the event, EASA said, but the cause of the pitch trim runaway couldn’t be explained.

“This condition, if it occurs again, could lead to the loss of control of the aeroplane,” the EASA notice said.

However, the Cologne, Germany-based safety agency said in its Emergency Airworthiness Directive that the decision to halt all flight operations of Dassault’s flagship jet came at the request of the Paris-based company, according to a Dow Jones report on Friday.

The plane was en route between Europe and Malaysia, Asia, with no passengers on board, Dassault spokesman Stephane Fort told Dow Jones Newswires by telephone.

The pilots managed to regain control of the aircraft and landed it safely in Malaysia, he said. Fort couldn’t say who owns the aircraft or who was operating it.

Fort said the decision to ground the aircraft was a precautionary measure.

Dassault has sent a team of technicians to Malaysia to try to identify the cause of the problem, he said, adding, “Our priority is the safety of our passengers and our aircraft.

The Falcon 7X was introduced in 2007 and is designed to fly 5,950 nautical miles with at least eight passengers. There are 112 of the aircraft in service.

“This airworthiness directive is considered to be an interim measure pending the outcome of the investigation currently carried out by the manufacturer,” EASA said.

The Falcon 7X has a sticker price of about $50m, depending on cabin features.

President Goodluck Jonathan had in the third week of March 2011, taken delivery of a Falcon 7X plane, shortly after it landed on the shores of the country from France.

The aircraft, which was manufactured by Dassault Aviation of France, cost the government $51m (about N7.65bn.)

The Federal Executive Council had on August 12, 2010 approved $102m for the purchase of two Falcon 7X and $53.3m for one Gulfstream G550 aircraft to beef up the presidential fleet.

The second Falcon 7X, it was learnt then, was expected to arrive in the country during the second quarter of this year.

In what is probably its first mission, the jet was said to have conveyed the wife of the President, Patience, to Sokoto during the third of week of March.

The two Falcon 7X aircraft are to be supplied by Messrs Dassault Aviation of France, while the Gulfstream G550 will come from Messrs Gulfstream Aerospace Corporation of the United States

(Interesting how the reporter used the word ban instead of grounded):ok:

Is this a Dassault problem or a Honeywell problem?

The F7X FBW system not Honeywell's.

Right.

The EASy avionics are primarily Honeywell EPIC.

FBW flight controls are not.

Okay...but I think you may be 'splitting hairs'.

It might seem that way.

Systems are highly integrated.

But Honeywell had nothing to do with the design, development and mfg of the flight control systems themselves.

Digital Flight Control System

Right. Does anything happen in that machine without the Honeywell systems knowing about it and or having something to say about it?
...no joy on the DFC link

try "reload" -- just worked for me.

Figures - the incident aircraft is the last Falcon 7X that was delivered - the aircraft is operated by Jet-Link AG Switzerland registered HB-JLN it is operated on behalf of Wallenmount Ltd of Hong Kong - which is actually owned by Tan Sri AK I possibly of Kuala Lumpur??

Actually came across a lawsuit filed in New York regarding this owner and aircraft against Dassault - no idea what that is about; Wallenmount Limited v. Dassault Falcon Jet Corp. :: Justia Dockets & Filings

Photo of aircraft landing at Kuala Lumpur;
http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/a...XHB-JFN116.jpg
photo by S.M. Tang of Kuala Lumpur/and Malaysia Wings

MalaysianWings - Malaysia's Premier Aviation Portal

A 7x owner files a lawsuit? Is this an example of fine Dassault customer service a few of you were talking about?

Yet another indication as to why Dassault has been at the bottom of the list every single year for the past ten years when it comes to customer satisfaction.

FR

Correct names mentioned or not, it really does not help anybody to mention names involved in these kind of things... That goes for pilots and/or owners names involved in incidents, accidents etc.

Do you guys, assuming you are actually flying corporate jets, normally speak about owners names with complete strangers? That would be a fast track to getting the boot in most companies I know of....

CP

Being as there is no indication of what the lawsuit might be about, and there is probably no airframer out there that has not had many over the years, its totally irrelevant that one has been filed against Dassault.

Never
 

We never mention the names in public...:=

...but we're always, ALWAYS curious about who the operators may be.:cool:

F7X
 

Its a Great Shame this has happened its a fantastic machine was at Bordeaux and lots of 7X arriving last week as if they knew they were about to be grounded.
They will fix it for sure, just may take some time :)

Safely back home:ok:


LG

Ferry flight approval is one thing, but if they cant find the route of the problem, how can they fix it ?

With 112 aircraft delivered at about $40m each, that's an extremely expensive amount of metal to be sitting around...... When does the manufacturer have to start reimbursing the owners for lost revenue and external charter expenses?

Mutt

Mutt - I think like my Client, Saudia Private Aviation had many delays on their aircraft due to Jet's mistakes in Basel. Given this new occurrence, the Saudis must be well p****d off at matters at this moment in time - true?

anyone know if dubai reg a/c have got the ferry flight permission yet?

preliminary details
 

Dassault has provided preliminary details of modifications that will allow crews to deselect auto pitch trim and introduces a new surveillance system to detect and stop pitch trim runaways.

These modifications are being tested but still require EASA approval. Dassault has said that a best case scenario may see the first aircraft modified by mid June however, an end of June return to normal operations is more realistic.

the proposed modifications do not address the cause of the Malaysian incident but will limit the adverse of a pitch trim runaway to the extent that the current weight/altitude/speed restrictions will be removed.

Rabbit Air AG (Swiss) flying KTEB - LFSB HB-JGI

FlightAware > Rabbit-air Ag, Zurich #100 Flight Tracker

http://4.bp.********.com/_ntmC4gow1j...-+6780+NET.jpg

Said aircraft departed this morning at 0715 local time back to France for further investigation. Flown by test pilots sans pax.Should be landing soon, hopefully.

Come on now, the 7x has been flying for 4 years now with no major problems.

Now it seems that every flight is at risk of crash:rolleyes:

"Come on now, the 7x has been flying for 4 years now with no major problems.
Now it seems that every flight is at risk of crash"

You'll be singing a different tune if you were flying the affected aircraft. If it was never a threat to safety,do you think Dassault would request the EAD?

"This condition, if occurring again, could lead to loss of control of the aeroplane"

I would be singing exactly the same tune.

Yes there is a problem and Dassault is working on solving, and they asked to ground the aircraft till they solve it.
But is not that the 7x suddenly became a killer aircraft.

We are talking about a ferry flight, with the pilots aware of the fact that they have to keep an extra eye to what the aircraft is doing. The problem with the aircraft in Malaysia is that what happened, happened suddenly, unexpected, and this can lead to loss of control on any aircraft(and it did happen)

If you are ferrying an aircraft that you know that a similar problem could happen you would be extra careful and watching the trim closely.
No need to put your soul in the hands of your god and say your prayers that hopefully everything goes well.

@flydive1

That assumes, however, that there is a means available of mitigating the risk or the consequences. Just knowing it could happen and being ready doesn't help much if, for example, there isn't enough elevator authority to counter a full stab runaway, and you don't have a reliable means of turning the stab off. The fact that they are allowing ferries presumably means that some mitigation has been defined, perhaps with specific procedures or limitations.

Of course.
I do not know the Falcon 7x specifically, but other aircraft I flown have a trim disconnect switch, I would be surprised if the 7x did not have one.

Of course if you are in normal operations, quite relaxed, descending on autopilot, a trim runaway can go a long way before you are able to react to it.
Is different if you are watching it because it might happen.

And since Dassault grounded the aircraft because of the problem, I do not think they would allow ferry flight lightly(hey, it's only pilots on board;)). If they believed that the aircraft could kill you at any time they would not allow any flight. And I'm also pretty sure that they issued restrictions and procedures for the flight to be conducted safely.

Personally I would have absolutely no problems to ferry such aircraft.

Hmm, agreed. But if it might not work (which might have been an issue here, compounding the problems) ... then you need a plan B, and a pre-planned one.

I do not think that the switch did not work, just that it took time to realize what happened and to react, giving the trim the time to run a long way. Of course just speculating, as I was not on board an there is no information about it.

The plan B is for sure part of the preflight planning and flight operation, with I guess restrictions and ops info from Dassault, for such ferry flight.

Actually, there is no switch to disconnect the trim, it is all fly by wire. With auto trim.
That makes it the big issue that it is.

Ferry Flight
 

A detailed review of the computer's non-volatile memory data, along with extensive simulation sessions, confirmed the sequence of events and has provided additional information.

During the entire event, the Flight Control laws operated normally. An "FCS: TRIM LIMIT" CAS message was triggered before the aircraft started to pitch up. The Flight Control short term protection functions remained inoperative in the first phase of the event. The pitch trim motor was eventually disconnected by the medium term protection functions, wich allowed the aircraft to recover normal behavior.

The pitch up movement caused by the trim runaway resulted in a load factor greater than 2,5g for 5 seconds with a peak of 4,5g, without exceeding aircraft structural limits. The aircraft structure has been inspected and no evidence of physical damage was visible.

The investigation to determine the origin of the pitch trim runaway and the non-operation of the short term protection functions continues.

There is an approved Flight Condition Approval Sheet (FCAS) which provides the flight procedure and limitations to perform a ferry flight.

This sheet notes that "flight crews shall agree for the most appropriate cockpit call-out to be triggered by the PNF in case a Pitch Trim Runaway is detected (e.g. "TRIM")

The following limitations apply for the ferry flight:

- MTOW ≤ 60.000lbs.
- CG ≤ 31% MAC during all flight
- Climb/Descent speed schedule: 240kt / M0.70
- Cruise speed and altitude schedule

* Use Long Range Cruise Performance information except if beyond the following limits: *

Airplane Gross weight: GW ≥ 50.000lbs
Max IAS 240 kt.
Max MACH 0.70
Max Pressure Altitude 33.000 ft


Airplane Gross weight: GW ≤ 50.000lbs
Max IAS 260 kt.
Max MACH 0.70
Max Pressure Altitude 37.000 ft

All this sounds like over-reaction to me. Other aircraft had trim runaways before, and as far as I know, it never led to the grounding of a whole fleet.
I wonder if the release of the AF 447 preliminary report has anything to do with it !?!

I'm not a falcon 7x guy, but all of the aircraft I've flown have been equipped to stop runaway pitch trim. I don't believe you can manually stop a 7X trim runaway as this crew experienced, you need to wait for the computer "laws" to kick in and recognize the problem.

This is a huge problem in my book. Do you falcon lovers really like flying something you can't control? Perhaps you can explain to the group what the pilots should have done to control and prevent the 11,000Ft altitude excursion. Food for thought, IF the computer had commanded down rather than up, their might be a smoking hole outside of Simpang.

... And please use FACTS to explain what should have been done rather than "boo-hoo you guys hate us, it was only once, we love our falcon" we have been forced to read to justify and defend this incident.

I would have done my own research, but Dassault is so insecure they forced Smart Cockpit to remove systems materials from their site as well.

Now to be fair, I still want the ASC to install cables on ALL the flight controls of my 650 that's on order!

FR

Well, your few post on this thread definitely sound like childish falcon hate

Yes, I sure that they will build the 650 with pulleys and cables because you tell them so:rolleyes:

Back to serious posts.

Question for the Falcon 7x pilots

What happens if during a trim runaway,or any trim automatic movements, you move the manual trim switches the opposite way?
Would that stop the trim?

Thanks

No , The manual trim switches can only be used when the HSTA (Horizontal Stabilizer Trim Actuator) is controlled in back-up mode.

the back-up mode is engaged when both channel 3 or the HSTC 3 module (horizontal stabilizer control) and channel 4 or the HSTC 4 module have failed.

Once this channel is activated it will maintain direct and dedicated control of the HSTA.

As I wrote before, there is no method by which you can trim the 7x in normal condition (law).
Only when the fly by wire computers decide that they don't know anymore will it let you use the manual pitch trim.

This is the situation the crew encountered, the fly by wire system was "happy" so no manual trim available.

(just to be completely clear, there is no trim wheel and the manual trim switches do not function in normal law, nor is there a way to override the auto trim in normal law).

GC