At risk of sounding defensive, I never said I couldn't accept direct Lambourne. I did say:

As I mentioned before, I do feel like I have a reasonable understanding of the UK system. I dutifully respond "deconfliction service" when asked OCAS, I "pass my details" when asked, etc.

Nor do I want to give the impression that I was lost like a ball in the tall weeds. When I was told to "route Daventry" or "NATEB" or "Brookmans Park" or any other fixes I punched in the idents and went on my merry way.

Asking for the Lambourne identifier was the only thing I asked for that day.

As a foreign pilot it can be tough to see how any intrinsic benefit some of the unique UK procedures may have outweighs the lack of standardization, therefor I appreciate the clarifications and background that many have given in this thread.

This post takes me back to the days of scud running PA31s ect up and down the UK flying in cloud VFR which is a UK thing as the concept of Flight Following for VFR and low level IFR does not exist here.

So in cloud VFR (IFR flight plan filed and IR held) requires that you have a good old VFR toppo chart and look at it before you go flying, figure out where you will be OCAS and dumped by the controller who will not hand you over.
Remember its up to you who you choose to talk to when OCAS.

In general the low level ATC service in the UK is very good but differs from unit to unit most are very good, but the bad ones are total crap.

One day they will figure out that the american Centre Control system is cheaper and better which means tower controllers sit in towers and look out of the window and approach controllers all work from the centre and provide vectors to all airports and flight following with automatic hand overs.

Please explain the Visual Flight Rules to me as I have only been flying for 35 years and have yet to understand how flying in cloud can be defined as VFR.

wwelvaert/all

Those of you who fly OCAS at times may want to take a look at this new free on-line flightplanning tool, which has just been launched with NATS endorsement. Had a brief look myself and seems to offer more guidance and in a more comprehensible form than has been available to date.

SkyDemon Light

might I also suggest that OCAS if you are unsure as to who to call, give London Info a call. If they can't offer you an appropriate service, they will suggest someone who can.

Savannah Jet
AC FISO London ATC

My point, one will be asked for position fixes and obscure reporting points only published on a VFR chart when flying IMC on a OCA/IFR flight plan.

In cloud VFR got it !!!

35 years how impressive.

Well, even without reading your full name on your blog, I could have guessed your true nationality! :ok:

I'm glad to see you got some useful replies to your excellent post.

I agree 100 % with Radar's reply #20

Oh, BTW, I like the opening sentence you used when you first met your wife! :ok:

Not sure exactly were you were at this point but there is a weird idiosyncrasy with the airspace over the north of England in that some of the airways actually change their MEA depending on the time of day; during the night they are lower because the base of controlled airspace drops - I have no idea why this is the case - perhaps someone from ATC could answer?

Scotland to London/the South in general is actually a flight I do quite a lot airways and when flying at c FL90/100 or whatever when one leaves controlled airspace close to Scottish/English border one contacts London Information - they will have a copy of your flight plan and will be able to co-ordinate a rejoin for you when the you meet controlled airspace further south. It can at first be very disconcerting to be told "7000, remain outside of controlled airspace" when you are not expecting it but it doesn't mean your clearance has been lost - it just means that while you are leaving controlled airspace the airways radar units don't want to be worrying about you. At FL100 or above you can call "Military" and get a service from them I think. They may also remind you to fly the correct quadrangle level which is sometimes a +500 FL depending on you level (another silly UK only procedure that differs from everywhere else!)

As for Biggin/Thames and London I'm slightly surprised to hear about your experience; I've always found them helpful. Approach info not on the ATIS is a bit annoying but it is something one has to live with - some airports like Southampton for example put it on others don't.

In general the one thing above all else that makes flying IFR in the UK a bit of a pain is the ridgy closed and class A airways system with everything else apart from airports being G. It has the advantage of protecting IFR from the riffraff I guess but for GA ops its a pain because it often leads to one either getting stuck outside the system or chucked out of it! In the US, where most airspace is E I find flying airways in a light aircraft must easier.

As for the controllers themselves having flown in the UK, Europe and the US I think the UK's are the most professional and diligent - but not necessarily the friendliest.

<<sometimes a +500 FL depending on you level (another silly UK only procedure that differs from everywhere else!) >>

Funny.... that's precisely the system I worked in Africa 40 years ago!!

Interesting to note it's not just the UK...

It is not however ICAO and while in of itself its not a bad separation system I really don't see the point in having such a difference. Especially since when one is outside of controlled airspace VFR traffic rarely follows it anyway...

Wow, for people that are so angry in this post it sure has gained a lot of attention!!

Vino

Presuming the fact that IFR and VFR are flight rules not IMC or VMC then it is a puzzle at what rules an aircraft is flying to if in cloud and not flying IFR rules? It is a puzzle to me having once nearly collided with a glider flying in clouds!
What was he flying? impossible for a glider to fly IFR in cloud unless he could fly a quadrantal level ( V unlikely)
How do you fly VFR in cloud as you are not meeting the legal requirements of VFR?
Yet gliders are legally allowed to fly in cloud with aircraft not equipt for IFR flight and their pilots not rated to do so.
When gliders fly in clouds what rules are they flying to OCAS

Pace

Don't quite know how you know that you "nearly collided with a glider in cloud" since you wouldn't be able to see. But ho hum

Christian

Take my word for it if its that close you will see it in cloud where vis is prob 100 to 200 metres. Posted the whole incident which generated a long thread here at pprune about 18 months back! and was reported.

Pace

fair enough. Must have been a bit nerve racking!:\

A miss is as good as a mile prob a 1 in a million but still possible OCAS but would still like to know what regs the glider fraternity are flying to in IMC OCAS?

Pace

I fly into Biggin quite often, usually from the south so I kinda know what to expect and I understand that the ATCOs are very busy and I try to accommodate them in what ever request they ask me as quickly and efficiently as possible, it’s called good airmanship. UK ATC is very very good on the whole unlike some of their southern or eastern European brothers but sometime UK ATCOs have the ability to fcuk it up on a grand scale. Not a problem we all make mistakes, but the thing that gets me the most when either I make a mistake or they make a mistake is the utter arrogance I get back from them on the RT.
And I often think that they look down their noses at Aircrew as some sort of inconvenience. All to often I feel for the poor Crew who are at the end of a 12+ hour sector approaching London, English is not their first language and they don’t get it first or second time by which time the controller is becoming frustrated and sarcastic in his tone. Patience gentlemen…..is there such a thing as ‘good groundmanship’ .
And before I get shot down I have visited NATS at Swanwick and take any opportunity to visit towers and have always encouraged FAM Flights where possible.
If all the aircraft in the world were grounded tomorrow then there would be no ATC but if ATC were shut down tomorrow Aircraft would still fly in some capacity.
You are here because we are here….aren’t we both very lucky to have each other.

Descend flight level of stairs and Turn left heading for the pub!!!!!!

RARA…..

RAPA,

Excellent post. Methinks you have hit the nail on the head. Ignorance of each other's environment (with its' pressures and limitations) is a growing problem. Certainly the recruits to our unit over the past decade or so have less and less interest in aviation in a general sense. there isn't the appetite to acquire a 'bigger picture'. The fact that familiarization flights are a thing of the past doesn't help either.

From experience, you, as aircrew with an active interest in seeing the 'other side', are definitely in a minority. Unfortunate but true.

Radar

I relative of mine used to work at NATS Swanwick as well and I have had several visits there, one in fact before the facility was actually open - was certainly a weird experience wondering around all these radar screens which were on and running but had no one manning them.

All the controllers I met seemed very professional - sitting down and listening to the Heathrow Director frequency for example while next to the actual controller was very impressive.

In the air I've never had the feeling in the UK the ATC wasn't sympathetic to my general aim to reach my destination in a timely fashion even if crossing the London Terminal Control Area in a C182 at 140kts isn't exactly making life easy for them. That said I have overheard some exchanges similar to what RAPA Pilot mentions...a bit of patience from both sides and things are easier.

To add the non standards ATC calls in the UK airspace.
1. The idea of "say aircraft type to Radar" Why ???? Doesn't the controller have this information ? We are just blocking the freq which is already busy.
2. The unique TCAS terminology calls used the UK. Why don't we all use the suggested ICAO terminology ? if each country would come up with a different set of terminology, in particular during a time of high pressure such as a TCAS maneuver, where will all this lead to ?
3. Why insisting on pilot to say SID, altitude passing, altitude cleared to ?
4. Why saying QNH.... after you have said information X received ?
5. The insisting of calling the VORs by their full names, instead the 3 letter code doesn't help, in particular if he said VOR was not part of the original route.

I am neither UK, US or Europe pilot based. In my opinion, the US ATC is much user friendlier.

Generally, I find the UK controllers to be above average. But the uniqueness of the system is what causes confusions with outsiders. :confused:

1. Mistakes can be made on flight plans so we need to make sure that you are the correct type of aircraft shown on the flight strip in front of us. What we don't want is getting less than the required vortex spacing required or you being parked on a stand that you can't use
3. We need to know the passing altitude so as make sure that you Mode C data is accurate. The SID needs to be confirmed to make sure you go the right way and the cleared altitude needs to be confirmed to make sure you don't bust the clearance and end up hitting something coming the other way.
4. because the QNH can change before the new information is transmitted.

Vortex,
I am sure you have your reasons, most of them I can relate to. I don't doubt that you have safety as your primary goal.

As an ICAO member state, if you you want to update or improve certain terminology, in particular English being your language, then you should present your findings to ICAO, convince them through the normal channels, and publish to the rest of world the latest recommendations. The rest of us will follow.

I don't know the numbers, but there a lot of foreign airplanes flying in your airspace. Surely you can appreciate the advantages of all the pilots and ATCs around the world using the same terminology, following and expecting the same procedures and standards.

An ATC facility is a service provider. As such you should listen to your customers, local and foreign. I get the impression some ATCs, in particular the ones who have never left their turf, seem so adamant that their ways are the best, and as long as you are in my airspace you must do what I say. This may be an exaggeration, but I have actually come across ppl like that, not necessarily in the UK though.

Short to medium operators in Europe can fly to a number of countries in a day.
You can not expect them to study the differences of each country.

By the way some other countries do opt to vary from the ICAO recommendations. It is just causing to the confusion and non standard phraseology used by different nationalities & various accents in English.

I am not arguing your comments, I am just presenting my opinion.
Have a nice day.

Apologizing in advance for my ignorance of the nuances of British practices, I have a couple of questions secondary to this hoary old thread.

1. Assuming one has filed and accepted an IFR clearance, and initiated flight, how is it that it ceases to be an IFR flight without the pilot canceling IFR? Surely the controllers cannot unilaterally cancel IFR for the pilot?

2. My interpretation of the OP's story was not that he exited controlled airspace by choice, but rather, that he was vectored out of the controlled airspace by the controllers; am I missing something?

3. Is radar coverage that poor over the UK?

4. Why so many squawk codes? I can fly across the country here on one code, two at most.

---

Perhaps I have been spoiled (spoilt) by US ATC, but in my jaunts about the country (mostly in my Bonanza), I have been treated with complete professionalism by both approach and Center controllers, and from the discussion in this thread, I have the impression that the UK controllers seem to regard non-turbojet traffic as needless irritants. Educate me, as I intend to fly to and around Europe some time soon.

Thanks in advance.

The UK doesn't have blanket Class E, unlike the US. Except for around some controlled airports it's mostly either Class A, or Class G. Class A isn't a blanket overlying Class E - a fair bit of it consists of corridors along air routes down to the lower altitudes.

In class G you can be IFR to your heart's content. There is no regulatory requirement to talk to anyone. Not being controlled airspace, there isn't a controller, only a Flight Information Service available. Think along the lines of 'Inside CTA' or 'Outside CTA' and never the twain shall meet. Once you hit Class G airspace while enroute you are no longer 'in' CTA therefore no longer have an IFR clearance 'in' CTA. A new clearance must be obtained for the next bit of CTA you wish to fly in.

Doesn't mean you are no longer IFR though. You're IFR in Class G as long as you adhere to IFR. Conversely, you're VFR in Class G as long as you adhere to VFR. Curiously, you could yo-yo IFR-VFR-IFR-VFR as frequently as you like as long as at each change you adjust your mindset and follow the appropriate set of rules.

On the subject of multiple transponder codes; units operating services outside controlled airspace are assigned a block of codes each; they will issue you with one of these to A) identify you and B) indicate to other units who it is you are talking to.
As regards being asked your full details when transferring to the next unit; your flight plan will only go to the relevant ATCC(s) and your destination, it will not be passed to en-route units outside CAS unless you specifically ask for it to be addressed to them.

Is this island really that big that the entire thing can't be one big controlled airspace above a reasonable altitude, so that once you've entered the IFR system you're in it until you leave the island?

It is Class C above FL195, if that's classed as a reasonable altitude ? ;)

Just spotted the original thread for the first time...

What happened to that pilot is not unusual, for the UK system.

It can happen to anybody, and continues to happen.

The simplest way to guard against it is by filing a flight level which is totally obviously decisively in controlled airspace. Hard to give guidelines on what this means (I was told by one ATCO that the rules are in a confidential ATC document) but FL120+ ought to do the job. If you file at lower levels (e.g. FL090 like the OP) then there is a possibility of getting dropped out of CAS, or even the flight plan getting dumped on sight by e.g. London Control.

In Europe, ATC will normally clearly advise traffic asking for shortcuts that one is about to leave CAS. In the UK this often doesn't happen; one can get transferred to "London 124.6" and a foreigner will think nothing of it. A local will know that 124.6 is an FIS service which, in the UK, cannot support an IFR clearance, so actually your IFR clearance has been cancelled without anybody telling you.

It's also an old chestnut when flying from France to the UK where you might be in CAS across France and then transferred to "London 124.6" with the same result. The solution to that one used to be to fly at FL120+ because one is then handled by Paris Control which has the authority to transfer you to London Control and your IFR flight continues. In recent years I have seen this work down to FL100, which is an improvement...

I suspect the powers to be decided to do something about it, because having to carry and use oxygen solely to maintain an IFR clearance from France to UK is nuts :ugh:

Huge amounts of discussion have been done on this on pilot forums. Normally, ATC are less than keen to discuss it, but it continues to catch out foreign piston pilots (or UK ones who have not yet discovered the quirks) filing for non-oxygen altitudes and expecting it to "just work" because the flight plan was accepted by Eurocontrol.

Personally I file for FL120+ and that deals with the issue. One can ask for a "stop climb" if the wx is nice. But there are still parts of the UK (Scotland etc) where the base of CAS is above that, but I have found that Scottish ATC are very much better at managing the situation, whereas in the south if you drop out of CAS (in level flight) they tend to wash their hands of you and won't let you back in. US-style "pop-up" IFR clearances are almost impossible to get in the UK.

I spent 22 years flying in the US and have been based in the British Isles for the last 4 years. My observation is that because UK pilots have been flying the system their entire careers their feeling is, of course it works like that.

When I first moved here I tried to get advice from my colleagues but their assumption of my knowledge of how things worked got in the way.

In the US if you are cleared to a point, you are cleared to that point via the route in that clearance. If that route is direct then you are cleared through whatever airspace lies directly between you and that point. If you are about to enter restricted airspace it is the controllers job to give you vectors around that airspace.

On the rare occasions that you might leave controlled airspace the controllers will provide flight following or tell you when or where to contact the next controller and the frequency but your clearance through that airspace still applies.

I've had to flush that idea from my mind and realise that you need a much better understanding of the limits of a clearance. I know when I receive my clearance out of Farnborough to Guernsey that I'm not really cleared through all the airspace along the route I've filed.

Sometimes it's hard to learn about the idiosyncrasies of a counties airspace when you don't know the questions to ask.

How many people who only fly in the US occasionally know what you can do with a clearance to operate VFR on top or what it means to cruise an altitude? Would you know you could ask for and receive a clearance for a contact approach and what that means?

That's the case in all of Europe, IME.

Picking up a departure clearance which says "cleared to EGXX" doesn't mean anything; it's just a standard phrase used at airports which are located inside controlled airspace. The expectation by the ATCO passing it is that the flight will be in CAS all the way. He has no practical way of realising that e.g. at the other end of the flight is an airport which lies in Class G and/or which has no STAR and to which you are connecting with a DCT, or that the end of the flight will be de facto VFR etc etc.

The USA has a uniform airspace structure with Class E (which is CAS for IFR) from ~1200ft to 17999ft and with Class A above that, which makes it easy to work clearances. The only European country which kind of gets near that is France which tends to have Class E from FL065 to FL115 and Class D FL120-FL195, and Class A FL200+ (in very general terms). On top of that, France has a superb ATC system which is joined-up in terms of data sharing so they know about you all the way, which results in a very relaxed experience.

However, while I have never flown in the USA (except when doing the FAA IR in Arizona) I doubt that an ATC clearance from one end of the USA to the other is actually more "absolutely guaranteed" than a clearance anywhere outside the USA. ATC has a universal power to deny you progress. For IFR traffic in CAS (high altitude) such a thing is unheard of in the civilised world but I suppose the bottom line is that a RA could suddenly pop up... More likely ATC will vector you around things, and that wasn't in the departure clearance either :)

Not quite Peter. When you receive an IFR clearance in the US it will be the route to, and including, your destination - even if that's the other side of the country. It may be abbreviated with the statement 'as filed' as part of the route. If the clearance will be a major modification of the filed route then they'll forewarn you with the statement 'full route clearance'. A clearance with vectors will include a point on the route where the vectors stop and normal navigation starts.

ATC may subsequently modify things in flight, but unless that happens you have a clearance all the way to your destination. Even a modification will get you to your destination, either via a whole new route, or the modification joins the old route.

Are you sure?

It has an important meaning - that you have an initial airways clearance. If your airways join was further enroute, you'd simply get an IFR departure clearance to a direction or waypoint, without the "cleared to EGXX" wording.

Dunno, in germany everything above 2500ft AGL (lower around controlled airports) is class E and everything above FL100 is C, FL130 at the alps. Class A or B isn't used though. That's still enough to enable IFR services outside of any kind of airways. The old corridor system was used within eastern germany of course, but that was over 20 years ago. Anyway, the airway structure is so dense that one is always around some airway, but usually not on it since one flies on some kind of direct clearance.

Yes; I thought I forgot Germany. It's a long time since I flew there VFR...
I still think that works primarily because in the USA you are assured of being in CAS all the way.

But there must be a difference because from what you say ATC would not clear you for a route on which you didn't have obstacle clearance, whereas here in Europe it is perfectly possible to file a Eurocontrol flight plan (using hacks like a series of DCTs, etc) which passes through terrain, and the departure clearance will still "clear you to destination".

Does the ATC in the USA have a means of checking the MSA/MOCA etc for your filed route, at a glance?

There is also an interesting ambiguity there. Here in Europe, once you are "cleared to", if you subsequently suffer a comms failure, you are entitled to fly the filed route and land (at the filed ETA etc etc). But if you don't suffer a comms failure, you can't necessarily do that :)

Apart from an IFR departure from an uncontrolled or no F -airspace airfield - and no IFR in uncontrolled airspace altogether.

I don't see the ambiguity to be honest... if ATC can`t reach you, then they can`t alter the clearance....

The amusing bit is that the only way the departure clearance is valid all the way to destination is if you have lost comms :)

Speaking of Germany, where IFR OCAS is banned, I wonder how pilots work departures from VFR-only airports when the cloudbase is a bit low... and Germany has AFAIK prosecuted some people for various versions of illegal VFR.

me too...the procedure is called VIFR and is quite unofficial... ;)

Well, the question is always WHO determines VFR or visibility and cloud height... if there is not a meteorologist or the equivalent, then the proof is hard to find (of departing IFR).

However this issue is a pretty annoying one and just why the German ATC is so against it (and has been against it for man, many years -> my dad was a german ATCO) I don´t know. IFR in uncontrolled airspace is not a magical thing...

Peter, an IFR clearance in the US will always include 'expect {insert final altitude here} in one zero minutes'. If contact is lost then 10 mins after airborne everyone expects you to climb to that level. If terrain is an issue at some point enroute then you are expected to climb to an appropriate cruising level above the LSALT before the relevent route segment if the LSALT is higher than the cleared altitude.

Departing into IMC from a non-controlled field that's OCTA ie outside 'E', then you can get a clearance with a 'clearance void' time from a controller. The clearance usually specifies a heading and initial altitude. Many places without VHF ATC comms have an on the ground Radio-to-phone frequency that is activated with a few transmissions. It direct-dials to the local ATC (or possibly Flight Service if an ATC phone isn't possible) so you can obtain a clearance. You can also phone for a clearance if need be although, weather permitting, I usually prefer to depart VFR and get my IFR clearance once airborne.

IFR OCTA isn't a big deal - it's common in Oz, for example.

VFR / IFR in Germany
 

I'm aware that I'm hijacking this threat across the channel, but I feel a few things need to be clarified.

This side of the channel "cleared to XYZ, route, level" means just that. You are cleared on the given routing regardless of the airspace. Outside CAS it's advisory or information only, but your clearance is valid to reenter CAS - eg. Poland, Sweden, Hungary, and also Germany. In theory you could have a Comm-Failure after receiving the take-off clearance and still continue in and out of CAS.

Germany does not permit IFR in airspace G. It has nothing to do with ATC. It's a political thing from over 60 years back, we are all used to it and nobody bothers changing it. Hence the dreaded airspace F, which is not CAS, btw. In return the VMC minima for airspace G are ridiculously low (1500m and clear of clouds).

With an acknowledged IFR clearance those minima may be applied to airspace E until reaching the minimum IFR level. Even though it's seldomly done you could call ACC by phone, get your clearance, and depart a VFR airfield clear of clouds and be IFR somewhere between 2000 and 3000ft AGL depending on the airspace. May not be nice but works and is legal for most conditions. (Works in a similar manner the other way around)

Ok, now back to the island. I'm eager to learn more about the system there.

Regards,
FR

My understanding (from German bizjet pilots) is that they depart into IMC from VFR-only airports, with IFR in Class G banned, but have to be careful to not enter IMC too near the airport because somebody might see them ;)

Apparently the procedure is called "IVFR" :)

What was the reasoning for no IFR in Class G?