Private Charter Aircraft?
Hi,
I have been looking at a bunch of aircraft to use for executive and non executive charter in the UK. I have considered the SE GA-8 airvan and a C206 but this limits my operations to day time only. On the ME side i have looked at C402,C340 Piper Cheyenne, Chieftan, MU2K and Marquise. Does anyone have any experience on these types or flying a similar operation? Im looking for any feedback or any help as to which one would be the best fit. Can the ME aircraft i have listed be operated single pilot? Thanks MAX :ok: |
MAX
Re your query re aircraft to operate My old company has not operated these aircraft for over 10 years but from what I Remember (AND I STAND TO BE CORRECTED) these are the answers to some of your A/C Forget single engined A/C they are too restrictive to operate . C402 Ok I Think and Ok for Single Pilot Operation However I am not to sure on the single engine performace but think its OK C340 Bad A/C single engine performace not good and it has small Cabin although its pressurised. I Think you ae Ok Single Pilot but only if the Autopilot is Working Cheyenne Good Aircraft Pressurised and reasonble size Cabin as its a turbo Prop which means you have to have 2 Type rated Pilots for Commercial Flights Cheiftain Good Aircraft Ok for single Pilot but again Autopilot has to be working otherwise 2 Rated Pilots. MU2K and Marquise Never been certified on UK Register ND i THINK IT WOULD BE EXTREMLY COSTLY TO DO) Just remember if you choose a Piston Engined A/c More and more Airfields especially to Larger ones do not hold stcks of Avgas any more so you will be limited to using smaller airfields if you need fuel Please dont get me wrong as there are still Many Airfields sell Avgas but are more restrictive (IE Landing Aids /Opening Hours) than the Larger ones. Of course Turbo prop Aircraft are a lot more expensive to Puchase than Piston A/c . I hope this helps and please forgive me if I have upset anybody but the above are as I Remember them However I am 60 now and me memory is not what is was in my hayday Regards Gerry (Ex Northern Executive Manchester 1970-2007) |
Turbine Islander (BN2T) I think can be operated single crew.
Just a thought! |
Also look at Commander and King Air 90
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King Air can operate single crew.
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Exactly, stay away from MU-2,I´ve flown them, very bad aircraft and too noisy for pax. MU-2 it´s the only aircraft where if you have an engine faliure after take-off you must not raise the gear, crazy, no?
King-air it´s good option and for Cessnas stay away from 421, they are great but corrosion on wing pillars and turbos are no the best, very expensive to maintain. Better a 414. |
Twin turbine/jets need two rated crew for Commercial Air Transport operations under EU-OPS. Twin turboprops need only one.
NT |
Hi!
Twin turboprops need only one. Regarding piston twins: Stay far, far, far away from them (for commercial operartion). I have co-owned a charter business for ten years pre JAR(EU)-OPS operating a fleet of up to six aeroplanes (C421, C404, C340) and it was never really profitable. The highest cost factors were maintenance and AVGAS. The aeroplanes have aged another 10 years since then, hourly rates of mechanics have more than doubled, availability of spare parts can be very problematic. The price of Avgas has risen a lot and is becoming more and more difficult to find. So I personally would not start with anything other than a modern - still-in-production - turboprop. The choice is very limited and prices are high. Greetings, Max |
The real qusetions are:
what do you want to do ? what can you spent ? how much running costs can you afford ? are you prepared and able to loose money before you make any ? The Cheyenne is a nice airplane, but dated. Spares start to become an issue. As what next pointed out, a piston twin too limiting, AVGAS is hard to get a a lot of places... |
Hi!
The Cheyenne is a nice airplane, but dated. Greetings, Max |
Hi Everyone thanks for the replies and all the advice provided. My friend has around £1 Million so far to start up which is not a lot in avaition and is looking to raise more funds. Just to check that im not totally wrong on something its is correct that in the UK an EU no single engine aircraft is allowed to fly at night VFR or IFR for a commercial operation which would include for example a C208B? We did look at the DHC-6 but the prices are very expensive even for 75 models!! I will take the advice and look at some king airs and commander aircraft.
I have heard that the BN2T will not climb on single engine so put me off that one slightly! We are really looking for simple cheap aircraft to operate and maintain for executive air charter and also a scheduled service linking areas only covered by long train times which are rather remote in the North! Our initial thoughts on this were the GA-8 airvan for its carrying capacity of 7 pax and 1 pilot and its ability to land and take of on short strips also costing £390K brand new from factory! As mentioned we would be limited with this aircraft and are looking for additional ideas for a capable ME so thank you all for the input and advice i greatly appreciate it! MAX |
Good morning!
My friend has around £1 Million so far to start up... Plan to use a substantial amount of of your starting capital for publicity. Before you have not spent at least 100.000 Pounds, no one will even know that your company exists. Always allocate monthly funds for publicity. Even if you really find your own littly niche, you will always have to face a lot of competition. And once the competition has found out about you and your niche, they will start aiming at your customers offering better aeroplanes at lower prices for the same service. If they are big enough, they will push you out of the market in no time, especially if you neglect your own publicity efforts (learnt this the hard way myself). Do not underestimate the time it takes to get an EU-OPS operating license for a startup business. A year passes like nothing! And you need to have access to an aeroplane all that time (and pay the associated bills), because without an aeroplane, you cannot apply for the license. Get in touch with your CAA as soon as you can (today!) and listen to their advice. Also, you need qualified (!) postholders for your operation. Again, ask your authority how many posts can be held by a single physical person. You may have to pay all those people during the idle time that it takes you to be issued your operating license. You will need to have access to instructors and examiners (class rating or type rating depending on the aeroplane) for every type of aeroplane that you have. This fact alone may exclude some exotic types from your list... (e.g. how many MU2 examiners are there in the UK? And are they willing (and allowed) to co-operate with your company, that might be in competition with their usual employer? How much do they charge for a checkride? How much will it cost to fly them in and put them up in a hotel? I know these things from my Metroliner days, believe me...) Just to check that im not totally wrong on something its is correct that in the UK an EU no single engine aircraft is allowed to fly at night VFR or IFR for a commercial operation which would include for example a C208B? I have heard that the BN2T will not climb on single engine... I for myself (after the third egine failure) have sworn that I will never ever again fly commercially with a piston aeroplane. I will never allow my wife or son to get on board a commercially operated piston eroplane. With no exception whatsoever. (Instructing is different because you do not fly at MTOM, therefore you have some reserves for single-engine operation - which is still marginal however!) ...carrying capacity of 7 pax and 1 pilot and its ability to land and take of on short strips... Good luck, Max |
Whats next
EV-55 Outback - New Generation Utility Aircraft, Twin Engine, 9 Passengers This all new twin turbine looks very interesting. They claim low purchase cost and running cost. It certainly looks the business. Cannot see that it is pressurised? as they quote 220 kts cruiise at 10,000 feet. But its STOL ability is amazing. having had a lot of experience in light piston twins I take your point on very low level engine out peformance but that is climbing. Level flight most are good on one engine and level flight can be 500 feet. Most pilots have it ground in them to climb when often it maybe better to set up a level cruise. Pace |
Your mission statement is far from precise.
As for the older piston twins: Still cheaper to operate than any turboprop on missions less than 500nm ( don't get me on details here). Easier to get pilots, class rating vs. typerating on a turboprop. Don't try your luck on exotic types unless you have a very special mission that the very aircraft fits. The MU2 never saw light in europe. Even the cheyennes are getting old and it's becoming more and more difficult to get spare parts. The KA90 is still more expensive to operate on most legs than a 421 as the early versions lack speed. The 421 has one advantage for the passengers and that is noise. You won't come close in a 414 plus its a runway hog. (depends on your mission - again) There is always a reason for an aircraft to be cheaper than others on the market. Either its more difficult to handle (e.g.C421), or the operating costs are higher. Whatever aircraft you operate: Make sure it flies often enough. On piston engines corrosion is a big killer and can only be avoided by flying it on a regular ( no, not once a month) base. The only way for these engines to ever make TBO is flying them frequently. Chosing the right airframe is one part, the other one is avionics. It sure looks great to have a ton of instruments in the office but who will repair it? Spare part availability comes into play again. The more common the avionics the better. Don't expect to buy a cheap airframe and put in a bit of maintenance work to make it fly/look good again. A thorough prebuy inspection is an absolute must. Don't save money here. Paying a maintenance engineer of your choice 5k$ for the prebuy is nothing compared to the **** you may run into without a proper prebuy. |
Plugster
One big problem looming with piston/avgas twins is the fuel. With mogas shooting sky high some estimates for 2010 of £1.20 per litre for cheap unleaded what on earth will AVgas hit? The bigger twins will cost a small fortune in avgas every hour. :ugh: Pace |
Hello!
With mogas shooting sky high some estimates for 2010 of £1.20 per litre for cheap unleaded what on earth will AVgas hit? But the biggest problem (for me) with vintage piston twins is the availability of spares. A '421 that I used to fly was grounded for almost six months because there was no spare oil pump to be found anywhere. And when they found one, it cost over 5.000 Euros. Because it was the only spare oil pump for a Continental GTSIO 520 worldwide at that time. Next time, they will ask 10.000 Euros for one. Or twenty. Simply because somebody will pay for sheer frustration. You cannot base a commercial operation on anything like that. If your aircraft is grounded for technical reasons, it must be back in the air within a couple of days. Otherwise you lose your customers. Greetings, Max (*) Interestingly, the smaller and cheaper the aircraft, the more passengers will be inside (watch next time when you are on a GA apron). Customers who charter a piston twin because that's all they can afford will always come with as many people as there are seats. Because they pay for it and they don't want to lose those seats they pay for. Thats also why you always operate piston twins at (or above) MTOM with absoultely no performance reserve. |
class rating vs. typerating on a turboprop The 'classic' KingAir rating is a a class rating (90-99-100-200). In fact any FAR 23 rating is a class rating, even the Jets like CJ´s and the like are classratings. If you can´t afford a rating, better don´t start at all, me thinks. |
You will agree on the point that there aremore MEP classrated pilots out there than King Air rated ones. That was the point I was trying to make.
Let's say you employ a pilot without the beech classrating on a king air, he stays 2 years and moves on further up ( typical scenario i would say). Make it a rough 10k for the class rating. With 200h/pa flying ( which i suppose is a lot for a startup) thats about 25€/h typerating costs,x2 for AOC operation. Makes 50€/h. Would you call that nothing? If you read the first post again you will notice that the operation is ment to be established in the UK, a bit far from Italy and their ripoffs to do serious business with decent payload on a piston twin at least. Fuel costs are not to be underestimated, however it's just a part of the whole thing. Replacing the gear or leaking fuel tanks on a 20 year old king air isn't cheap either. A PT6-21 comes at about 160k€ each, hot section inspection not included. I know the issues with the 421s, the one I flew is waiting for a new gear since september and may do so till august. |
I have noticed a lot of air taxi and charter companies using DA-42 aircraft only for this purpose. Are these aircraft any good i understand that they would be much cheaper than some of the above mentioned but only can carry 3 PAX and dont even consider a climb out with an engine failure!
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