If you look on this problem from the other side it may be interesting.
You have spent 7-digit amount on bizjet to get comfort, convinience and flexibility.
Your annual budget to keep it going is much much more than you would pay for 1st class tickets.
Your flight crew is paid somewhat similar to high level managers, the only difference that managers making money for the company, not just spending.
Now you need to get to New Zealand for a meeting and your wonderful flight crew is saying "sorry but this beyond our FTL... you wouldn't mind to spend a night in Bangkok while we have a rest, don't you, boss? or may be you would take a scheduled flight?" :mad:

CargoOne,

Hopefully before this situation occurs, hopefully before the owner buys the aircraft, someone in the aviation management would have explained that if the owner wants to fly in Europe he needs XXXX aircraft, but if he wants to go to NZ from Europe then he might need XXXX aircraft AND an additional crew that could be positioned, and rested, at the appropriate tech stop en-route.
Then if the owner wants to spend 25 hours in the aircraft it might be accommodated safely.

Hopefully this would have been communicated by the aviation manager and not simply ignored by the aircraft salesmen.

I know it was the salesmen who won with the previous aircraft owner I worked for. Then you have problems!

Kent BeTrue

We all want to live in perfect world but most of us cannot manage it.

A friend of mine recently suffered a gear box melfunction in his almost new Bentley Flying Spur, turned out to be an assembly error.
I'm sure that worker who made this error on production line had his own reasons which would explain why it happend, like too much overtime, wife is bi@ch, children not behaving well, pay is too low etc etc etc. But guess if this is out of any interest for my friend?

CargoOne,

Agree 100% with you......

But I do not think you can equate a mechanical failure with a failure in communication from the outset.
Of course the boss is going to be p**sed if you tell him that you can not perform the flights that the salesman told him was easily achieved.
And rightly so!!

My point was that if the boss had already been told, from the start, that if he wants to go to NZ, then there were certain factors to be taken into account, like tech stops, crew change etc, then he would not have the right to be upset.
Doesn't mean he wouldn't be when it happens :)

Promises Promises
 

Bentley promised to deliver a car in 100% conditition with a warranty that includes a nice big smile. Anything goes wrong, simple, gives us back the car, we roll it away and give you a replacement.....................

Anyone promising to fly you to NZ in 25 hours must really know what they are doing :rolleyes:

More than anyone else.

Kent has it right, depends on what were the promises made to the Owner on purchase and more importantly.........who made them.

Usually its the salesman, its worse if it was the Pilots!

As far as I can see OTAR 125 (from Jan '08) is the latest version, this only states that you need a FTL scheme.....

So nothing that forces anyone to something reasonable.....

(yet)

GC

Cargo One

A more relevant analogy would be if your friend objected to the fact that the salesman had told him that his Bentley would do 1000 miles on a tank.

It never ceases to amaze me how guys who make billions - often through their attention to detail - will spend a fortune on lawyers going over the small print of the contract of sale, and yet never check with the tech guys what the salesman told him about the performance. Duh:ugh:

Aeroncaman....

Sometimes quite the reverse..... I have tried to explain this to a few aircraft owners now and all I hear is the answer that CargoOne forwarded. They pay a lot of money, they want to go where they want, when they want.

One owner even suggested that if anything happens, adrenaline will kick in and we will be wide awake to deal with any problem. This is after I refused to operate a "scheduled" 18 hour day.

No pride involved from this side, but I do know what you mean.

FTL
 

When confronted with this situation, I normally ask the pax if he would let a surgeon operate on him after eighteen hours at work or if he would let his lawyer draw up a contract ditto. There is usually, at this stage, a pause for thought, but I have to say, not always!

Unfortunately in these financially tight times some owners might decide its not worth the cost anymore if the "flexibility" factor is reduced by new regs. I'm not defending 20 hr duty days etc at all, and also cannot understand the lack of common sense that the owners display at times, but unfortunately this has been part of the corporate/private bizjet scene throughout the time that i've been involved.

True, but if they were all constrained by, say CAP371 then the playing field would be level. You want to run a Bizjet? You need to roster your crew to this standard.

Owners would just adapt to it. They've enjoyed the convenience of private jets and they're not likely to pack it in because the crew costs have gone up.

You can't put the Genie back in the bottle.

a good point to discuss is insurance.
Do they pay if the crew was beyond limits ?

gigi, flying on certain registrations, there have been NO FTL's (VP-C, VP-B etc) This is shortly due to change, and is the crux of this thread really. This, for many years, has been the "trade off" in return for less "politics" and red tape but i fear the EASA/JAR induced cancer of excessive pointless bureaucratic regulation may get a foothold now. I will restate however, as someone who has done his share of long working days, FTL's are not a bad thing per se, i'm just concerned where this new flurry of rulemaking will lead.....

in the past we had no JAR or EU-OPS, just ICAO annex and Docs as a valid reference. It was safe .....anyway. EU OPS1 consider GA (taxi ops) as airlines.

Big improvements would derive from GA dedicated laws and regulations (also fiscal).

I would like pilot regulations aimed on main "Flight Safety " topics instead of ....Security and Dangerous Goods.

Gentlemen,

As an operator of a VP-B registered aircraft holding a Bermuda Validation against my locally issued ATPL, can this 2 man crew flight be legal?

Depart: KLAX 0124Z 31/3/09 Arrive: EINN 1036Z 31/3/09
Depart: EINN 1200Z 31/3/09 Arrive: OEJN 1818Z 31/3/09
Depart: OEJN 1940Z 31/3/09 Arrive: WMSA 0322Z 01/4/09

Yes it is (probably).

IF you are a private operator.

VP-B--, only requires you to have a FTL scheme. There are no requirements as to what it says.....

The rumour has been started here that they (OTAR's) might come up with a FTL scheme. I haven't seen anything yet. So for now yes you are legal. (smart is something completely different).

GC

If what I'm seeing is really 20+hrs of flight time, and I don't even bother with the duty time; it is in my opinion, beyond crazy.. legal or not.

Good luck.