Apples and oranges, you can't compare the GII/III to a Challenger. Many marketers and brokers try and some rather successfully but they are 2 distinctly different airplanes. Gulfstream GII's were built in the early 1960's and the first Challenger 600 came about in 1980. So there's quite a bit of difference in age between the two aircraft. The GII also weighs in at 31,000 Kgs vs the 19,500Kgs for the 600.
But getting back to your question, the reason is simple, supply and demand. The newer aircraft operate more efficiently and more importantly have easier access to spares. These old aircraft are having a harder and harder time being supported by the manufacturer. Supply and demand also plays a strategic role in the cost of the aircraft. Many people want more efficient aircraft ( fuel, maintenance, and flexibility to operate wherever: noise). I remember about a decade or so ago the GII was around 1.5-2 million USD. A year later they shot back up again in price. ( My company bought 3 straight wings for a million a piece and had the winglets installed) I know a couple of people that use their GII's and GIIB's and enjoy it. They fly around 200 hours a year and have a full maintenance staff to keep the aircraft running and parts available when needed. the noise issue can be mitigated with a good flight planner unless you operate frequently into airports that ban the Stage II. The US will allow your hush kitted GII/III to operate as a stage 3 but you still have airport curfew and noise considerations. Europe is more difficult. Doable but difficult.:ok:

JGSFLA-

Think long & hard before you buy that G-II. Lots of good info from these guys.

If you get a light jet, don't fly it to Europe. Go nonstop out of MIA on a Boeing or Airbus. Huge hassel & way more expensive to fly a Beechjet to Europe from S. Fla. And don't ask your "pilot" to drive your freakin' car. :ugh: You wouldn't ask your doctor to mow your lawn.

For $450 000 US a year I'd definately fly his jet and drive his car! I'm pretty sure it would be better than the car I presently own!

Thats $140 000 for salary!!



How do you make one million dollars in aviation?


Spend 10 million!!!

One more consideration to consider when purchasing an older GII/IIB. Where it is registered (country) and how does the maintenance and aircraft requirements differ between where it's been and where it's going( new country).
If it's coming from abroad where there are no, say CVR/FDR requirements, then plan on paying anywhere from $300,000-400,000 USD to get it up to code, so to speak. There are a plethora of other gotcha's like RVSM, TAWS etc..
Get a good person knowledgeable in the field.
Personally, and this is just my opinion, a late model hush kitted GIII would be better than a C 600. Forget about the GII.

GIIB and G3 great airplanes in its day. The world has changed unless you want to stay in Africa and even then with limitations.

And for $400.000 to 600.000 a year you would be hard pressed to own a LR 25 and fly it for 250 hours a year like you say. Then multiply fuel, insurance, parking/handling(outside US), maintenance costs by 2 x 2.5. Pilot salary would be 33% more. Etc.

In a nut shell, Forest Gump would probably have a great one liner to why they are so cheap. Maybe something like " there aint no buck for half a buck".

Find out essentials like RVSM cost and feasability, specially in GII GIIB( cant go anywhere on straight jets at FL 260/270), Hush Kit cost, and Hot section/overhaul costs on Speys. Then worry about future tightening on restrictions, and resale value of A/C ( even with all above work).

Thats why it's cheap. It isn't really.

Why is a 10 year old Maserati so cheap?

Rusty T,
There is an AD out that is crippling most aircraft with aftermarket STC'd fuel tanks. I believe it covers all CRJ's MD-80 series, most 737 series and 727's , airbuses, Boeings and Fokkers. Basically, anything with an added on fuel tank. They either have to disconnect the fuel tank or provide some sort of inert gas system ( as the US Air Force uses) to prevent sparks or arcing from explosions. This has caused a crisis for the new CRJ programs as well as the MD-87 aircraft and 737.
Maybe someone with more knowledge on the matter can chime in...

I've been flying both 2's & 3's for over 10 years....currently flying a hushkitted 3 out of PBI. Hawkerjet's post is very good on operational considerations, with planning you can take these a/c almost anywhere. As far as maint., we plan on as much as a 1K/flt hour, and we're usually a little high. The problem with the 2 is initial cost vs resale value, most of them will be parted out, and the range requires more stops.
So, if a buyer is willing to probably write off the bird when it's time to buy something else, there's a lot of bang for the buck, I know of one G2 being offered at below 800k.

Experienced Gulfstream II/III Pilot
 

I've read the replies and will offer the following based on flying the GII/GIII continously since 1981 (6,000 + hours in type):

There are two schools; those who see the value in a GII/GIII and those who don't.

My thought is it is one of the safest airplanes ever made and very strong performer which comes at a price; weight; large engines; high fuel burn. A well maintained one is very reliable and safe if you have the right crew making good decisions.

Issues; noise. This is partially addressed by avoiding airports not open unless stage III and not operating late at night at certain airports with cerfews.

Maintenance is available and the GII is a 1968 design an the GIII 10 years newer. The GIII is better in many ways and are $2.5m for a good one.

Because it is of newer technology it will be better to own for the long run and have some resale potential.

Major issues:
Cockpit avionics status
Interior acceptable as is
Paint good
Engines are overhauled every 20 years with a $500k midlife at 10 years
72 month inspection
24 month inspection
5,000 landing gear overhaul
Aft bulkhead inspection
Emerg. window inspection
Corosion status

This airplane should be in a hanger in Florida.

It burns 550 gallons an hour at 460 knots. Range for GIISP is 2,400nm and GIIB/GIII is 3,400nm. For your missions, I'd reccomend the GIII.

Don't buy a straight wing GII or tip tank GII. No resale unless 3rd world.

Only consider a GIISP, GIIB or GIII. It is a buyers market and you should get the best one on the market, not just the cheapest. Avionics, total time, engine calendar time, interior, paint, major inspection status all play a part in determining which is really cheaper. Engine mid-life is $1m so buying one right out of mid-lifeand paying an extra $400k is money well spent. Paint is $100k, interior is $100-$200k. An old cockpit might cost $500k to update.

Typing on a computer is not my style for a real discussion. If you'd like to have a conversation, please email or call me as I'd be happy to help answer any questions.

Mark Malone

Dear Sir
 

If you are seriously looking at buying an old airplane you are not talking to the right people. The used aircraft market is different than what it was a few years ago. You can get a GIII for the 1.25 mill right now. There are nice Falcon 900's going for 4 million if you know what you are doing. Send me a PM if you are really in the market, you need some professional help. I am not it, but I know guys that are great at this. I will not even snag a commission, just trying to help you out. I am currently flying a G550 and it is not exactly a great investment, but the owner has more time than money and wants the convenience of going when and where he wants.

Hi

You obviously understand strategy and risk. I think there are still opportunities out there to spend $x Million now that in 2-3 years will be worth $x+

Aircraft will be saleable and you would have an asset that appreciates rather than depreciated.

I think anyone that buys a G11/GIIB/G11SP now will be the last owner of that aircraft so in terms of asset value no return.

Anyway, well done for coming here and asking the right questions to a community that has no reason to BS you. You have listened to the arguments and made an educated decision with regards to the Gulfstream.

I think if you had a figure that you were mentally happy with, with regards to running costs of an older aircraft, you might find more comfort and piece of mind using that as a pot of money to charter with and then go scheduled across the pond.

You are of course entirely right that the security etc is a pain in the ass but it is a necessary evil these days and truthfully, how many times a year will you put yourself through that?

Good luck anyway

GW

I suppose he was asking a valid question, but come on I can't believe that nobody else has called this guy out on his bull**** story. I guess that with hard work and some sort of talent, a lot of 'idiots' can get rich, but no fund manager is EVER going to say that they can "easily make 10 to 20% on my money per year". Especially in this market, but even in any market. I mean the historical average annual returns on the S&P 500 are probably under 10% now since the downturn, and there's great debate over whether actively managed funds can beat that by pure speculation. Plus there are so many better resources available to this guy rather than an internet message board. He could have gone to a broker, talked to a maintenance company, and I believe that the largest investment banks and wealth management firms all have resources to advise their clients on the issues of buying private jets. He was going to make a decision off of information he heard here?

Plus he wasn't using the finance concepts or jargon that I would have expected from someone as 'sophisticated' as him. Its like he was trying to express the idea that his discount rate on the capital investment (the plane) was 10 to 20%, but he wasn't exactly sure how to phrase it :hmm:

And he believed that he would be able to 'recover 85% to 90%' of his investment if he sold? Half of that would be brokerage costs alone. And in how many years, engine cycles, landing cycles, flight hours, etc, would he get that back?

GII fuel burn
 

i would like to know what is the fuel burn per hour and operating cost for GII??

JG...let's take a show of hands...everyone in here that has actually painted a corporate jet, supervised engine overhauls, big maintenance checks, ect...terrific...not seeing to many guys in here that have managed planes like I have for 20+ years...so now that everyone hates me, here are some facts..

If you go buy that G2...you'll get a big cabin, it will go a long way...the cost of a paint job and interior, won't be much..

The only drawback is that it's noisy...they have kits...and also you have to decide if you need to do a full power take off, at that little strip anyway...Gulfstreams, have tons of power...with 5 peeps on board, light on full, only a moron pushes the throttles up all the way....sterilizing small animals for miles...

Hire your own mechanic, do a good pre purchase..you won't get burned..

In the 'old days' idiots going out and buying G5s, did so because they made so much money, they needed the write off...so where are all these banks, auto makers and big companies now? Dumping their planes..

Whatever jet you buy...find someone that has done this before...and you'll be into a plane for allot less then you think and it will cost allot less to fly around then you think...

Older aircraft have a much older certification standard so are less safe.

I'll keep that in mind when and If I ever fly an Airbus and on take off, I try to add a little rudder...knowing that I am safer now with the newer aircraft...

Sorry Shell Management, that is not true.

Lets take the TCDS for the Gulfstream Corporate aircraft. Its the same TCDS for these aircraft :

G-1159
G-1159A
G-1159B
G-IV
G-V
G-VSP
G-IVX

so by your postulation the G-V is a dangerous aircraft becuase the certification was first issued in 1967 ?

in the same situation, the B737NG are still under the same the TCDS as the B737-100, also first issued in 1967.


in respect of johns7022,


couldnt agree more. also a lot buyers new into the exec jet ownership market have been stiffed by seller, brokers and sales agents that are little more than used 'car dealers'.

i've worked on several situations trying to undo the damage to owners finances after getting the wrong plane or buying it wrong through sellers/sellers agents.

You are thinking of the A300 which is pretty elderly just like the 742 and its exploding centre tank.

Don't you think all that FAA rulemaking counts for anything?

Let's see:

G2's cabin is narrower than a CL 300, has about 2800nm range, shorter than a CL300, is so noisy it'll be restricted from many European airports, burns fuel at a prodigious rate, will have ZERO residual value over the next 5 years. Sounds like a great investment.

GF

I can tell you that being part of the 'go out and get me a plane' process, is part rational and part emotional....

Bringing to the boss solid numbers, mission requirements, resale value, operating cost.. many times get trumped by cabin comfort, ramp presence...

So it's all moot if you got a guy that just wants what he wants....

Many times though when they buy too much plane, the flight dept folds....