Mexico City Learjet Crash . . .
 

Mexican Learjet crash . . .
 

BBC NEWS | Americas | Mexico minister killed in crash

Aircraft being reported as Learjet 45-028 XC-VMC manufactured in 2000 and registered to 'Secretaria de Gobernacion' in Mexico City.

Hmmm, Mexico, Drug Czar, plane crash???

Hmmmmm.... :uhoh:

For goodness sake let's get some details first!

XC-VMC Lear 45
 

As in the title of this website, 'Rumour Network', how could you possibly not wonder about this one?

Mexico's Drug War

Considering there is an actual Drug War going on inside Mexico, you can't help but wonder about this Lear crash.

The Lear 45 has only suffered two hull losses to date, with 400 aircraft in the fleet and ten years of service. The first loss was a Bombardier test aircraft lost when the aircraft lost directional control during high speed runs thru 'pools of water' on the runway.

The second was an Italian Lear 45 in Milan that suffered multiple bird strikes on departure.

The NTSB will be involved in this investigation, and probably a year from now we'll know quite a bit more than we do now, however until then, hmmm!

The only detail available right now is that official sources are quick in saying that the cause is accidental "because engine and fuselage are together".

Yeah right, like if the only way to bring down a plane was to bomb it.

XC-VMC Lear 45
 

TIME/CNN article states Mexican police foiled an assassination attempt on one of the passengers earlier this year.

Update . . .
 

Early reports suggest Lear 45 XC-VMC failed to adhere to legal separation rules while following a Mexicana B767-300.

ASN Aircraft accident Learjet 45 XC-VMC Lomas de Chapultepec, Mexico City Aviation-Safety crash report and video.

Hi Everybody,
I Agree We Will Know Facts Until A Year Or So From Now..
Ever Considered Wake Turbulence? He Was On Approach Behind A B767
Just Wondering
Facts Are A Year Away

Wake Turbulence
 

The Lear 45 was reported as following a Mexicana B767-300.

I'm sure most recall American Flight 587 Airbus in New York that crossed into the wake of a departing JAL B747 after 9-11.

To date, there was a Massey-Ferguson Lear 25D at Detroit Metro that passed thru the wake turbulence of a departing DC-9 and crashed, a Dept. of Energy Citation 550 knocked out of the sky by a B757 wake turbulence in Montana.

Martin Aviation Westwind 1124 carrying In/Out Burger's CEO crashed near John Wayne after encountering wake turbulence of a Northwest B757, and a MS760 Paris Jet also landing at John Wayne crashed in Irvine after encountering a United B757 wake turbulence.

So of course we don't know, but certainly possible. 'Black Box' was reported as recovered, so in the long run, factual answers shall be forthcoming.

Wake turbulence II
 

Preliminary reports indicate that the Learjet was approaching runway 05R behind a Mexicana 767-300 bound for the same runway.
The 767 was approaching at 183 knots while the Learjet was doing the same at 250 knots.
The controller instructed the Learjet to reduce speed to 180 and the pilot acknowledged, however radar data shows the Learjet did not do so.
As a result distance between them diminished considerably, at one point this distance was only 3.9 miles according to radar data.

The crash ocurred shortly thereafter.
Wake turbulence has been deemed probable cause, although authorities have indicated that a final report will take more time.

I haven't flown learjets (gosh those cockpits are small)...but

it seems to me that if the flaps came down assymetrically, while trying to reduce speeds, you might have quite a flip over.

what flap assymetry protection does the learjet have?

on my beloved DC9, the flaps are bussed together.

the wake turbulence idea is a good one too.

but it all gets down to this...250 knots, that close to the runway is an unstablized approach for sure.

I have has split flaps on a DC9 although it is very unusual It was not a great inconvienience at flaps 15 fortunately had a long runway (ELP) and we kept the speed up The flap actuator at the wing was badly broken

YouTube - Wake turbulence plane crash in Mexico City: Radar View


I think that wake turbulence is a plausable explanation. If I read the data tags correctly, just before MXA1692 (the 767-300) makes the turn to final (2:53 in video), the Lear is at the same altitude, 4 nm in trail and 70kts faster! Then, at the location that XC-VMC has the event, they were 300ft lower than the 763 was at that point and they crossed it 1:24 after the 763.

Speculation, of course, but given the proximity and the altitudes, it fits.

The flap control unit(computer) on the 45 constantly monitors the flap system for faults and failures including asymmetry via RVDT's . If the unit detects a split in flap deployment of more than 3.8 to 7.45 degrees , depending on flap speed , the system will be disabled and a big amber 'FLAPS FAIL' will be posted on the EICAS .:ok:

Spoiler Asymmetry?
 

Here's a thought on the whole flap asymmetry topic. The Lear 45 has three flap settings beyond 0: 8 degrees ( a lift position) 20 degrees and 40 degrees. The extension speeds for these settings are 250KTS, 200 and 150, respectively. Spoilers can be used at any speed, however, they cannot be used in combination with any flap settings beyond 0. In a get down fast and slow down situation, extending flaps to 8 degrees isn't going to help you, you need to get down to 200 kts and flaps 20 before you get any real drag effect from the flaps. Typically, spoilers would be used to get the best "slow down/go down configuration untill below 200 kts, where they would be retracted, then flaps 20 extended followed by gear and final flaps. Bombardier doesn't like to talk about it, but there have been a few cases of asymmetric spoiler retraction on the LR-45; I've seen it in the sim, and trust me, it's violent roll with the nose falling right through. It seems to me that this upset occured on the flight profile right about the point that spoilers may have been retracted before flap extension. Just a thought.........

sit to wait...
 

down in the streets hundreds of witness saw the lear falling in flames, maybe millions heared in the radio a plane falling in flames over Mexico city, one hour latter that information was dismiss...when information is manipulated not matter how much effort you put on investigation, results won´t come soon, some resign to a year.

lear 45
 

Hi, this is my first post, I found this site while searching for answers on this accident. MR. Juan Camilo Mourino secretary of the Mexican govt. who died on that flight was an old bourding school classmate of mine, we lived and went 2 years together to school, and he was a great person, I only wish I was flying him maybe this would not have happend to him. He left 3 kids behind he was 37. He died a heroe, he stood up to some cruel people and maybe just maybe he paid the ultimate price. I am sorry I got of the subject but I am looking forward to some very good hanger flying with you guys.
thankx

manipulation???
 

Koudelka,
Your argument is weak. It is only your opinion but lacks sustantive data.
If "millions" heard a plane falling ,why don´t you find a couple of them, ask them what they heard and then tell us if they have some valuable information.
A witness that saw the plane falling may be of some value. The investigation will determine how much. However, the FACTUAL information released by the aeronautical authorities is quite valuable (radar traces and communication excerpts).
The opinon of the City Major and other authorities that do not have experience in aerial accidents is just that, their opinion. It is hardly manipulation of information.
To prevent this event from becoming a conspiracy it is necessary to have cool heads that can think. Hopefully you are one of them.

WihE, you´re rigth I wasn´t in the place as a witness, I was just a radio listener and many people said they saw the plane falling on fire. Also they talk about a video with the plane on fire on tv, but later that information dissapear and there was just an official story. I don"t want to bother anybody but I think there is nothing wrong in thinking that something else could have happened considering the actual conditions in this country and the infiltration of the narco. Of course, I"m very sad for Mouriiño and for all the deads and it would be terrible to think in another hi ipotesis than that of the accident but we mexican cannot help it (thinkin of an attack)I hope you understand, specially if you think in the sophistications of the armaments the narco has (and the trainment) We are afraid anyway. wether it was an accident or not-