Green S.I.C's
 

Hi guys.

What can you really expect from a freshly minted co-pilot. One day they are hour building flying a PA 44, a few days later sitting in a type class, next WOW a jet ..........................:eek: wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Are you the type of captain who is like a kind old father (mother), show them the ropes and dispense great advice.............

Or have no time for a novice and tell 'em "just sit on yer hands mate, l can do it..."

Under Part 135 operations, a co-pilot only needed to have a knowledge of the aircraft systems, performed some single engine work and made three take-offs and landings.
Some less scrupulous operators took a flexible approach to this.
A friend of mine recounts his newly rostered first officer climbed into the right seat, looked around in wonderment and said "Golleee!"
But the large 135 operation I flew with in the US ensured that all new hires were FSI trained and had spent several hours in the air with a training captain before being let loose on line.
So we had few problems.

I've seen it go both ways. I've had copilots who were so incompetent I really did tell them to do nothing...don't talk on the radio, don't touch anything. They were that bad. I've also had some for whom I wrote upgrade recommendations after the first few flights. For those, when they acquired more experience, would make excellent candidates. And they did.

The question isn't so much with the Captain, as it is with the first officer. What's he (or she) made of?

I was babysitting a newly minted captain one day, and as he entered the runway for departure, he let out a low whistle and said "Wow. This is just like the simulator." That sort of thing pegs my disgusto-meter.

..wot so is it like a pale peppermint green or more of a deeper ivy green then?

...go on gizz us some of that popcorn Flintstone....




http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...ns/popcorn.gif

Recently heard at my place "I couldn't send a taxi message, I was flying the aircraft".

No problem I said, I'll tell the captain to stop making you fly the aircraft because it is interfering with your real job".

Phil

As I approached the airplane one morning with the first officer, I told him this would be his leg. His response? "Okay, but don't rush me. I don't work well under pressure."

This is good CRM, you told him that this going to be his leg....

What kind of cockpit that is ?

May be was he(she ? I doubt) was not fully ready to take this leg , the answer was very CRM; " Do not push me" equals to I was not mentally ready to act as PF, so I need a bit of time to consider all aspect of this flight, however please tell me that this is ok and i will fly the next one, if there is nothing wrong with you sir.."

Green horns, they are not greener than you when you started flying, would it be 30 years ago, it does not matter, today co-pilots (or First Officers) and even Flight Attendants are taught to speak up, and we are taught to listen and analyze their words, translate them in our environment and take a decision.

Personnaly I like to take a guy out of the sim, first flight in the plane, their grins when engines are starting, when they feel the acceleration, this is where their dream is coming true, they are about to fly a jet. Same thing on the debrief after an approach to minimas, on when they reach 51000ft.
They need this experience , they need us for a knowledge transfusion, this is why we are here, to dissiminate the knowledge, to tell them , everything that happened to us , because no one as enough of one life to make all mistakes available and survive.

The first flight in the plane, they usually try to work out the radios, after having tried to setup the aircraft for flying...Then after a couple of flight, where I try to fly the aircraft will full automation at every stage of flight, it is time for monkey work, just mimick and enforce SOP's. Then, depending on the person, time to go down in automation, and sectors depending , handfly the aircraft from take off to FL 430 and have the feeling of it same for descent and landing. It takes some sectors and time, but they have all the time to be ready.
One thing to remember, aircraft handling is not decision and responsability or Salary.

Have safe flights and a lot of green copilots....

CL300

"......on when they reach 51000ft."

I take it you are a trainer of some description, line trainer maybe.

If you are cruising at 51,000ft, you are compromising on safety IMHO. What if you have a "blowout" up there? I think you would be very lucky to survive and your passengers would not have a show in hell.

In spite of what the glossy sales pamphlets state, at that altitude you are in pressure suit territory, with pressure breathing available.

I preferred this thread when it was funny.

That was really funny Phil. Really! :ok:

Worst 'Look at me, I fly a Gulfstream' post evAr :rolleyes:

Two nations separated by a different sense of humour !!

...............and the English Channel ;)

Dear Weido;

What is your job ? Flying an airplane ?

51000 Ft this is where the airplane was certified, and accidentally it could get up there under certain conditions, You would prefered 49000 ? 47000 ? 45000 ? 43000? 41000? Where is safe ?

You can add I will never do a Max take Off weight take off at 50°C because if I loose an engine I will be just on the certification limits of the aircraft; Or I will never take off in mountainous terrain, because the rocks are damned close...

The thread is about , what kind of captain are you...Not specifying if it in a LR31 or a GLEX or a 7X....or a C550; type does not matter, attitude does.

If you have to go that high on that day , for ops reason or just to show how thin the air is, this is it , this is today the highest a civilian aircraft can go; and indeed, they smile....

If I could go as high as FL510 I would! If only to see what the world looks like from there. Guess I wouldn't stay too long tho.

D and F :8

Appoligies for the thread drift.

My dear CL300

Yes I fly an aircraft that doubles up as a life support system at "high altitude". Don't fly very often now but I am employed as a pilot. Employed to fly passengers from A to B with safety, uppermost.

Aerodynamically I have no problem with your argument on the certification process. It is the physiological aspects I have an issue with here.

My max cruise is FL410 normally.

I used to be young and bold. I am now old but not bold.

If I may suggest you have a read over this I draw your attention to the following extract below.

"At 40,000 feet, a person breathing 100 percent oxygen will have the same partial pressure of oxygen in the lungs as a person breathing air at 10,000 feet. Therefore, 34,000 feet is the highest altitude at which a person would be provided complete protection from the effects of hypoxia, and 40,000 feet is the highest altitude at which 100 percent oxygen will provide reasonable protection for the time period needed to descend to a safe altitude."

If the above makes someone think twice before climbing to FL510, my work has been worth while.

Think of your passengers and try and keep them smiling.

Oh dear................here they go again................:eek:

There is nothing wrong with going to 51k if you understand what you are doing.

I used to brief my new copilots thoroughly on aerodynamics and physiological effects. Then when conditions were right take them up there at least once and fly it manually. Then they were not affraid, understood it and if they ever had to do it for real it would not be their first time.

I am always afraid of the base experience being diluted because pilots do not see situations when they are in the RHS. Then the first time they do see a given situation is when they are a captain with a new co in the RHS. This can be carefully and safely prepared for by proper training.

I once worked for a company, not too long ago, where we sent a new F/O through the yellow submarine training just because we thought it was a good idea.

MM

I think this thread is about new FOs, right?

(...although, I love that, "Sit back and watch with the popcorn," smiley...)

I'm getting older and was never really bold. One of my university tutors once said, "I am your more experienced equal," and that has stayed with me throughout my life. I have flown with guys who are extremely helpful; I have been captain and hopefully mentor in turn to just as many. Back in the right seat again, I have flown with captains who, say, sit back and tut when I'm trying to get the FMS programmed before departure.

I believe it is an aspect in all walks of life where the bullied become the bullies, and it is a cycle that is gradually being broken. Personally I find the attitude more prevalent in English-speaking offshoots from the UK with phrases such as, "Grow some," and "Suck it up," but I do realise that that is an outrageous generalisation and I have no wish to offend.

As pilots I believe we're enthusiasts. Most of us have wanted to fly since we were young. This in turn leads to all manner of problems within today's business ethos, but that's for another thread, another time. As such, when new I might have looked at the top panel of the C-130 and genuinely thought, "What do all those switches do?" Now in dispatch, I look at the flight plan and ironically announce, "What do all those numbers mean?" It's then an interesting exercise gauging the response of your colleagues.

I won't waffle any more. The bottom line is that apart from a standard and safe operation, we are many different people with differing cultures and experience levels. How we choose to deal with the latter is called CRM.

BB

Phil, you said:
Two nations separated by a different sense of humour !!

Actually, I thought your comment ("I preferred this thread when it was funny") was really funny. It made me laugh. That's all I was trying to say.

So maybe not such a different sense of humour afterall?

Well seeing as this thread is already going off topic (probably a good thing given some of the responses) I once flew with a very serious Austrian training captain.

After a few days he asked me in a teutonic monotone what my objectives were for the rest of the tour. "To teach you a sense of humour because you are Austrian and don't have one".

There was a pause during which I was sure I'd gone too far then he replied "Ja. I know".

Which was pretty bloody funny I thought. Funnier even than Phil :O

Funnily (?) enough this accident reports ties together the subjects of crappy captaincy and high-altitude hijinks.

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2007/AAR0701.pdf

733, not you, I was talking about the yanks, you obviously have a finely developed sense of humour, I guess you are just visiting then?

EGHH.

Ok, I can see the crappy captain connection but where do the high altitude high jinks fit in?


Maybe I'm slowing down in my old age.

Flinty, he is reffering to the core lock of the CRJ, when 2 pilots took the aircraft above the ceiling for the weight, changing seats in flight and so on...and finally crashed..:=

If the thread has to drift to High altitude flying, and the like, then it has to be restricted to people flying above FL450 routinely...:)

This is leaving a lot of persons behind := but this very little place of atmosphere of 6000 ft ( FL450 to FL 510) is a very privileged area; a bit like CAT3B landings in Bizjets, there is 3 groups, the one who will never see it or do it; the one's whow speak about it without actually flown them, and the one's whom are flying them or flew them..

Now, CRM is equally important on that day, what are you showing to your green copilot ? ( not so green in a CAT3B :hmm: ) your leg mate ? or Part A states that this is mine . Sorry I cannot give you the landing there is only one HUD , and it is on my side, but please call the deviations :eek:

I know what he's referring to, I'm having trouble understanding why it was introduced to this thread.

I thought most of us were discussing low-houred FO's (apart from those willy-waving about Gulfstreams).

Just a guess, but perhaps that post was about "cowboy" captains and FOs not wise/smart/experienced enough to say "no".

Frankly reddo I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be anything, it was such a strange offering.


Remember children. DPP. ;)

I do my best work when in that state. :E

May be because of the orrendous unsafe altitude of Four one oh which is quoted
"2152:16
CAM-1 you’ll get the you’ll do the next one to say four one oh. * yeah baby."

and yall come back dudes....:\

CL300

I should have known better.

You are one of those "sky gods" from that outfit with HO in Lisbon aren't you?

At your age you should know better. You need to keep away from those sales types as they believe their own lies.

Sleep with dogs and you catch their fleas.

hey Weirdo..:}

English is not my native language; :cool:

I'm not line training with NJE, and I have very little ties with management; I'm a regular line Captain.
However, I have been flying for 20 years in a corporate/business/charter whatever you want to call it under numerous regulations.
Now i'm suffering yearly line checks, OPC/LPC every six months, and due to my age a medical every 6 as well, I have not grey hairs, and I'm not completely bold as well ( must be genetics).

With NJE I fly the falcon 2000 EX ESy, certified to 47000 ft...however due to performance limitations and fuel reserves required I couldn't get one of ours that high, nor it was required as well. ie Max Weight to cruise at M.80 at FL470 is 28300Lbs in ISA , with a BOW of around 24500 Lbs and reserves at around 2000 Lbs this is leaving you reaching FL470 at TOD...not interesting but FL450 is achievable at 32500 Lbs then it gets interesting.
The good things with falcons is that they fly by the book, if you fly them by the book.

Regarding sales, are you reffering to manufacturer sales team?

For your religious comment about gods and the like, unfortunately I'm completely atheistic, therefore I cannot comment since my words would not depict the reality.
( ha yes bad habit from myself; when I do not know, I ask , I do not comment)

All sales, come under the same umbrella.

BTW, if you are multi crew, you should be on 12 monthly medicals, should you not?. Or does that only apply up to age of 60? At 88 you are probably a little outside the window.http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/badteeth.gif

Your English is good, considering it is not your mother tongue.

Now what was the thread topic again?

Oh yes green s.i.c. I could not possibly comment old chap as I am one.

I shall leave you and others on this thread in peace.

Happy and safe flying.

Above 40 in France, place where everything is different if it can be different; First Class medicals are due every six months...up to 65..at 88 LoL; this is the earliest I could get into pprune DoB.

there is a thread open for flying above the golden altitudes...:8

Oh contraire Rodney. One may have imbibed a certain volume of nectar, however ;)

I thought it demonstrated a green/weak F/O being lead straight to the scene of the accident by a shall we say substandard captain and perhaps making captains think about just how much "green" F/Os can soak up and be swept along by their attitude and habits.

This incident is also the first thing that comes to my mind when I hear an impending willy waving contest about ceilings. Look where it got these chaps...

Anyway having dug my hole I shall retreat to within the same forthwith.

I was the ultra green FO in a part 91 operation, starting back in January. I was fortunate to be flying with a very experienced CA who sincerely wanted to bring me along.

Starting with the radios, flaps and gear (when I could find the levers, switches, buttons, etc in a timely manner), he kept adding just a little more each time as I caught on. He knew I wanted to learn and do a good job and willing answered my many questions. Eventually he started giving me legs to fly.

For me having a captain that's wants his FO to succeed and grow has been great. It's the attitude that's important. You experienced guys have a great opportunity. I'm guessing most of you will be mentors like my captain has been. Unfortunately there are also a few self important bullies out there. I feel sorry for their FOs.

BTW, we've done FL450 (max. ceiling in the LJ35) where it made sense. Big fuel savings, that's for sure!

Ahh, okay. If you know a bit of background to the incident I can see that. I just read it as a couple of idiots frigging around and couldn't see the connection with this thr................................ on the other hand though :E



No, no. Don't go. I'm intrigued by this nectar of which you speak. Does it come with a little umbrella and a cherry? http://www.iconspedia.com/uploads/1326291506.png