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-   -   Fly N-REG aircraft with JAR CPL as F/O (https://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-flying-ga-etc/335347-fly-n-reg-aircraft-jar-cpl-f-o.html)

2000DX 16th Jul 2008 08:42

Fly N-REG aircraft with JAR CPL as F/O
For my first post:
Does anyone have any idear, how is it possible to fly a N-REG aircraft with a JAR CPL for a private operation outside US?
Hope to read you soon.

Enjoy your day.

CirrusF 16th Jul 2008 09:15

It depends on the regulations of your licencing state. In France, you can fly an N with a JAR licence as long as you stay in France.

unablereqnavperf 16th Jul 2008 09:20

It is not legal in Europe unless you are properly licenced and rated on type under EU ops. This is a change from previous leg. To fly in europe all co-pilots must now be rated on type when flying N reg aircraft. Insurance companies will refuse claims if you are not properly rated. An FAA CPL is a breeze to get so just get one!

READY MESSAGE 16th Jul 2008 09:37

Is this the same privately as well under the changes? I mean can you fly the boss in his N reg Citation on a FAA licence (or M Reg aircraft for that matter) in Europe?

ab33t 16th Jul 2008 10:00

You can only fly an N reg with a JAA licence in the country that the aircraft is based. I think there maybe isuues about IR as well .

2000DX 16th Jul 2008 17:06

Thanks for your answers.
It is for a Middle-East to Europe operation on a N-reg aircraft with a JAR (french) CPL. So like Unablereqnavperf says, I will probably done FAA CPL in a very near futur.
It's might be the best way to fly.
If anyone have any other information feel free to reply.

unablereqnavperf 16th Jul 2008 20:14

It will be easy to get an FAA licence when you go to do your type rating all pilots of N reg aircraft flying in European airspace need to be type rated and licenced even if the aircraft is operated privately! There are plenty of places that due a quick crash course for the US exams and you can do your FAA check ride as part of your type rating check ride.

IO540 17th Jul 2008 15:09

I am not sure any of the above replies are right.

FAR 61.3 allows an N-reg to be flown (outside the USA) on any foreign license so long as the license is issued ("validated" is not good enough) by the country owning the airspace.

So, you can fly an N-reg in France on a French issued license, in Germany on a German issued license, etc.

Some people believe that a JAR license is good for all of JAR-land. I have two replies from the FAA which directly contradict each other on this matter. So this is a grey area. But a strict reading of 61.3 (which anybody who can read can do) says this is wrong because the word it uses is issued.

I don't see what difference having a CPL (as opposed to a PPL) makes to the above - it merely enables you to act as a paid pilot flying your employer around in his plane.

Fair_Weather_Flyer 17th Jul 2008 15:27

On a JAR CPL I doubt the insurers on local aviation authority would allow it.

If you have 1500hrs+ and meet FAA ATP requirements then just do the ATP written and skills test <1500hrs and you will not be able to take the ATP test, so for a second in command type rating you will need an FAA multi engine instrument rating. This will mean a trip to the US, including visa hassles and a check ride on the actual aircraft that in not a gimme by any means. I could be wrong on this but people I know with low hours have had to do it this way.

stickjoc 17th Jul 2008 15:49

Having seen a colleague with this problem, trying to fly N reg from the UK into Europe, the problem you face is that your national licence [non faa] is not valid outside its own country because you are then in INTERNATIONAL airsapce, and thats where you fall foul of not only the FAR`S but EASA rules, or for that matter ICAO rules.
The best way is to get a stand alone FAA licence, its so easy!.:ok:

Farrell 17th Jul 2008 16:47

You will need an FAA CPL/ME and IR

The ATP is a technical exam and if memory serves me correctly, you must have the above to captain an aircraft.

As a pilot on an N-reg you will be able to fly ANYWHERE with the CPL ME IR.

You will need to also do a TR and checkride on the aircraft type.

malc4d 17th Jul 2008 17:24

Try ww.faa.gov for the full regs...................:bored::bored:

Title 14: Aeronautics and Space
Subpart A—General

§ 61.3 Requirement for certificates, ratings, and authorizations.

(a) Pilot certificate. A person may not act as pilot in command or in any other capacity as a required pilot flight crewmember of a civil aircraft of U.S. registry, unless that person—

(1) Has a valid pilot certificate or special purpose pilot authorization issued under this part in that person's physical possession or readily accessible in the aircraft when exercising the privileges of that pilot certificate or authorization. However, when the aircraft is operated within a foreign country, a current pilot license issued by the country in which the aircraft is operated may be used; and
Blah Blah and.................

§ 61.31 Type rating requirements, additional training, and authorization requirements.

(a) Type ratings required. A person who acts as a pilot in command of any of the following aircraft must hold a type rating for that aircraft:

(1) Large aircraft (except lighter-than-air).

(2) Turbojet-powered airplanes.

(3) Other aircraft specified by the Administrator through aircraft type certificate procedures.

Blah blah blah or................................

§ 61.55 Second-in-command qualifications.

(a) A person may serve as a second-in-command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second-in-command pilot flight crewmember only if that person holds:

(1) At least a current private pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class rating; and

(2) An instrument rating or privilege that applies to the aircraft being flown if the flight is under IFR; and

(3) The appropriate pilot type rating for the aircraft unless the flight will be conducted as domestic flight operations within United States airspace

Blah blah .......................................................

Subpart H—Foreign Aircraft Operations and Operations of U.S.-Registered Civil Aircraft Outside of the United States; and Rules Governing Persons on Board Such Aircraft

§ 91.703 Operations of civil aircraft of U.S. registry outside of the United States.

§ 129.15 Flight crewmember certificates.

No person may act as a flight crewmember unless he holds a current certificate or license issued or validated by the country in which that aircraft is registered, showing his ability to perform his duties connected with operating that aircraft.


[Doc. No. 7084, 30 FR 16074, Dec. 24, 1965]

B200Drvr 18th Jul 2008 11:06

I believe it also goes on to say that you may not operate the "N" reg aircraft commercially in a foreign country without at least a FAA commercial pilot certificate and appropriate type rating blaa blaa blaa.

jetopa 18th Jul 2008 18:03

That is all correct: you have to fulfill the most restrictive of all applicable regulations.
Example: you may be allowed to fly a SE with retractable gear etc. (= 'complex aircraft' and with > 200hp: 'high-performance aircraft') as PIC with your European license in your country, but since FARs require the above mentioned checkouts, which are not known elsewhere, you still have to have them as well. In case anything goes wrong, the insurances sure as hell know exactly all the regs that are required!

In your case: flying with the applicable European license within the country that issued your license is fine. But stay within your airspace or have an FAA license.

ChristopherRobin 21st Jul 2008 18:30

my reading of the FAA regs is that if I want a FAA licence I need to go to the USA to get it issued. Is there any way I can get it issued in the UK?


2000DX 21st Jul 2008 20:56

I have order some book to start revision for the FAA CPL-IR test and hope to have time for study in order to pass the exam in first part of september.

Thanks to all for your reply.:ok:

malc4d 21st Jul 2008 23:57

Yup can be done in the EU. You will need to go through the whole TSA stuff,:ugh: but wont need a visa..;)

B200Drvr 23rd Jul 2008 11:39

2000DX remember that you will also need a co pilot endorsement to fly as such outside the USA on a N reg aeroplane.

HH53 23rd Jul 2008 21:55

Businessair.com and Tom hughston is a designated FAA examiner authorised to conduct flight tests for FAA Licences.
www.itftuk.com gives a lot of information about how to go about it.
I hope thats some help.:)

2000DX 4th Aug 2008 10:35

TSA is quite simple it just take time, and if you have already done the finger print process , it's just the time to pay the bill and to give information from and about the school for the type rating.


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