Lear Jet Down
Interesting point too, however, I would have thought that if it was indeed so, they would have made their planned intention known to ATC much sooner. I tend to think that it was a last minute decision which left little time to execute a tricky low altitude manoeuvre (in reduced visibility) effectively.
Circling approach is not authorized.
Its a mystery why they didn’t take runway 9 with at the most a couple of kts tailwind component as the wind was light and variable.
Rumor has it that their hangar is at the end of runway 27.
To answer a previous question, some charter companies will have both their pilots equally trained and both have a full “PIC” type rating just the left seat pilot is generally the more experienced. It is legal however to have only one fully type rated “PIC” pilot and a “SIC” type rated pilot which for simplicity’s sake is about half a type rating. There is quite a difference in training cost. Some companies hire a new pilot, pay for SIC training then after a year (or two) during recurrent training let the pilot ‘upgrade’ to a PIC type rating.
Do we like this pilot, do they get along with everyone, are they staying a couple of years or ready to bail after a couple hundred hours jet?
All those considerations.
Especially a Lear is not known to be a ‘starter jet’ but many evac companies use them for the larger door. Or I think that’s the reason. Old Lears are cheap too.
Their pay is generally on the low side for industry starters.
Last edited by B2N2; 29th Dec 2021 at 15:42.
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Interesting point too, however, I would have thought that if it was indeed so, they would have made their planned intention known to ATC much sooner. I tend to think that it was a last minute decision which left little time to execute a tricky low altitude manoeuvre (in reduced visibility) effectively.
I’m curious about the cockpit dynamics and gradient. Both more or less equally experienced and good buddies and alternating seats? Flew a lot together? First time pairing of a senior and junior pilot? Large differences in experience levels? What was the cockpit conversation like?
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Local opinion is that the pilot decided to switch runways as the aircraft was based here, to save a couple of minutes taxiing time to his hangar. Unfortunately his approach height in positioning to the other runway was too low and he realised that too late, resulting in a stall as he attempted to gain height. It is better to arrive slightly later than not arrive at all, my instructor used to tell me. No high power lines involved, only street height lines lost.
1. Terrain to the SW of the airport would complicate a VFR pattern from 17 to 9L in the existing flight conditions.
2. Assuming the most experienced pilot was in the left seat and was PF, flying a VFR pattern from 17 to 9L would have required the FO to keep the airport in sight as PM. Circling to 27R allowed the left seater the best opportunity to keep the airport in sight.
At least a couple possible reasons:
1. Terrain to the SW of the airport would complicate a VFR pattern from 17 to 9L in the existing flight conditions.
2. Assuming the most experienced pilot was in the left seat and was PF, flying a VFR pattern from 17 to 9L would have required the FO to keep the airport in sight as PM. Circling to 27R allowed the left seater the best opportunity to keep the airport in sight.
1. Terrain to the SW of the airport would complicate a VFR pattern from 17 to 9L in the existing flight conditions.
2. Assuming the most experienced pilot was in the left seat and was PF, flying a VFR pattern from 17 to 9L would have required the FO to keep the airport in sight as PM. Circling to 27R allowed the left seater the best opportunity to keep the airport in sight.
I’m assuming a Lear 35A is approach category B
https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/2112/05402R9L.PDF
If the weather is below minimums you go missed you don’t circle.
Thanks…
Knowing that this flight shouldn’t have happened.
Not authorized to fly one approach and not authorized to circle at night.
The weather and visibility wasn’t such that they could cancel at 4-5 NM at 1500’ and maneuver for left base 9L.
For all intends and purposes unless you’re flying a small piston aircraft that airport is VFR-only for jets
Knowing that this flight shouldn’t have happened.
Not authorized to fly one approach and not authorized to circle at night.
The weather and visibility wasn’t such that they could cancel at 4-5 NM at 1500’ and maneuver for left base 9L.
For all intends and purposes unless you’re flying a small piston aircraft that airport is VFR-only for jets
Residents were extremely lucky to escape this disaster happening in their front yard, only bringing down a tree and some utility lines. Even the cars parked only meters away weren't completely scorched by the post-impact blaze.
Looking the other side of the street, the 1100 ft hill that the pilot probably tried to evade
Looking the other side of the street, the 1100 ft hill that the pilot probably tried to evade
I dont closely follow the private jet segment of aviation in the US but as a casual and occasional observer of various aviation websites it appears there are a surprising number of jets crashing.
Canadair in Tahoe, several Citations, several Lears, GIV, Falcon 50 and now this Lear just in the last year or two.
Some fundamentally stupid accidents happening.
My question, is there a trend here or is it simply a case of increased awarness as a result of social media and the proliferation of many online industry news sources?
Canadair in Tahoe, several Citations, several Lears, GIV, Falcon 50 and now this Lear just in the last year or two.
Some fundamentally stupid accidents happening.
My question, is there a trend here or is it simply a case of increased awarness as a result of social media and the proliferation of many online industry news sources?
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I'll provide some information for our compatriots on the other side of the pond.
The aircraft was based at the accident airport, and the crew had used the same procedure of cancelling the IFR approach to RWY 17 and making a VFR circle to RWY 27R many times.
There was a scattered low ceiling in this instance, and the aircraft was less than 400' AGL as it crossed the airport and initiated the left turn to 27R. A large hill off the approach end of 27R required a tight turn to align with the runway. ADS-B suggests the airspeed as the turn progressed decayed below the stall speed. Doorbell camera video and a compact debris field indicates the aircraft spun in almost vertically.
There are reports that the FO was PF and on the radio. The crew had been paired together for many months and had flown quite a few hours in December. The aircraft was in Arizona earlier in the day, and the accident flight was a twenty minute jog from an airport in the Los Angeles area.
The aircraft was based at the accident airport, and the crew had used the same procedure of cancelling the IFR approach to RWY 17 and making a VFR circle to RWY 27R many times.
There was a scattered low ceiling in this instance, and the aircraft was less than 400' AGL as it crossed the airport and initiated the left turn to 27R. A large hill off the approach end of 27R required a tight turn to align with the runway. ADS-B suggests the airspeed as the turn progressed decayed below the stall speed. Doorbell camera video and a compact debris field indicates the aircraft spun in almost vertically.
There are reports that the FO was PF and on the radio. The crew had been paired together for many months and had flown quite a few hours in December. The aircraft was in Arizona earlier in the day, and the accident flight was a twenty minute jog from an airport in the Los Angeles area.
Last edited by ThreeThreeMike; 31st Dec 2021 at 22:23.
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Circling minima is there for a reason. The prohibition on circling at night is there for a reason. It’s one thing to cancel IFR in good viz and ceiling, at a sensible circuit height, but to do a “visual” circuit when the cloud base and possibly viz are below circling minima? And IF an aircraft were flying level at 400ft over a built up area this is illegal. Obviously this is all in response to the unconfirmed speculation from other posts at this point, so these are general comments only. As always we need to wait for the official report to see what learning can be taken from this accident.
RWY 27R TPA 1588 (1200) RIGHT TFC SR-SS; TPA 1388 (1000) LEFT TFC SS-SR DUE TO 893 FT AGL MOUNTAIN 2.1 NM ENE OF ARPT.
Given the light vrb winds, 09L the longest rwy (27R 706ft DTHR) with the least challenging IFR app., with similar track miles when coming from SNA, I wonder whether the pilots requested this 09L GPS approach? Or was it refused due to traffic?? (Miramar?)
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The Captain's briefing before landing would be interesting given that what they planned to do wasn't authorised and the only plan B for a loss of visibility in the circuit (pattern) would be declare an emergency and climb to altitude with the consequent risk to IFR traffic above.
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Am I missing something: why did ATC clear them for the requested VFR left pattern on 27R one hour after SS?
Given the light vrb winds, 09L the longest rwy (27R 706ft DTHR) with the least challenging IFR app., with similar track miles when coming from SNA, I wonder whether the pilots requested this 09L GPS approach? Or was it refused due to traffic?? (Miramar?)
Given the light vrb winds, 09L the longest rwy (27R 706ft DTHR) with the least challenging IFR app., with similar track miles when coming from SNA, I wonder whether the pilots requested this 09L GPS approach? Or was it refused due to traffic?? (Miramar?)