Cessna 421C training
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Cessna 421C training
Hello.
I’m considering renewing my ME/IR and have looked at the Cessna 421 C for the “job”.
Anyone have experience in flying it?
I’ve heard the engines are very “sensitive” and also doesn’t like cold weather. Not sure if this is true.
Any input is appreciated on weather it’s on the geared engines or if it’s input on how to fly and operate it.
Considering the 421 for reneweal as there might be some flying in the 421 later on...
Thanks in advance to all of you who have som input.
I’m considering renewing my ME/IR and have looked at the Cessna 421 C for the “job”.
Anyone have experience in flying it?
I’ve heard the engines are very “sensitive” and also doesn’t like cold weather. Not sure if this is true.
Any input is appreciated on weather it’s on the geared engines or if it’s input on how to fly and operate it.
Considering the 421 for reneweal as there might be some flying in the 421 later on...
Thanks in advance to all of you who have som input.
Been many years since I flew the Golden Eagle, great aircraft.
As for a renewal in it, sure can’t hurt if you’ll be flying it later but can’t see it being cheap!
Lovely aircraft to fly, enjoy!
As for a renewal in it, sure can’t hurt if you’ll be flying it later but can’t see it being cheap!
Lovely aircraft to fly, enjoy!
Lots of good stuff here:
https://www.jerrytemple.com/temples-tips/
Scroll down to the 421 section.
The 421 is a great plane, the fleet, like all the cabin-class piston twins, is aging, but that doesn't mean there aren't some nice airframes out there. The geared engines, yes, they don't appreciate ham-handed throttle jockeys, but operated properly they are no worse than any other big-bore turbocharged fire-breathers. Not sure where your comment about "not liking cold weather" comes from, those engines (like any other) definitely benefit from proper pre-heat or heated hangar treatment when used in colder environments.
Renewal lessons in a 421, if you can find one available, will be expensive, but, have fun!
https://www.jerrytemple.com/temples-tips/
Scroll down to the 421 section.
The 421 is a great plane, the fleet, like all the cabin-class piston twins, is aging, but that doesn't mean there aren't some nice airframes out there. The geared engines, yes, they don't appreciate ham-handed throttle jockeys, but operated properly they are no worse than any other big-bore turbocharged fire-breathers. Not sure where your comment about "not liking cold weather" comes from, those engines (like any other) definitely benefit from proper pre-heat or heated hangar treatment when used in colder environments.
Renewal lessons in a 421, if you can find one available, will be expensive, but, have fun!
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Hello!
The C421 is a truly wonderful aircraft in (almost) every respect. But by now, all the surviving ones are old ladies and need to be treated as such. The latest one was built in 1986 if I remember correctly. But to be honest, they already needed to be treated as old ladies even when they were young.
As you already know, the engines are a little more delicate than more simple piston engines. The reduction gears do not like load reversals, so do not use the propellers for braking (as one would do in a turboprop) but make sure that the props are always pulling the aeroplane. There are no adjustable cowl flaps in the nacelles which means that the cylinders must be saved from shock-cooling, which will lead to cracks, by the pilot. This is most easily done by carefully planning the descent. Try not to descend at more than 1000ft/min so that the engines are always delivering power. And likewise try to not reduce the power by more than 1inHg per minute. The C421 has a high enough Vne that permits such powered descents. As an addidtional benefit you will find that you can do your initial approach at almost the same speed as the jets around you. I was taught to operate these engines like one would operate a FADEC jet engine today. Maximum thrust (not! full throttles, but manifold pressure and RPM limits) for take-off and from then on only reduce the power for the remainder of the flight: Climb setting at a safe altitude, then cruise setting and thereafter a continuous reduction from top of descent until touchdown. On a smooth paved surcace the plane can be taxied with the engines at idle, which means that you will reach your parking position with the engines and turbochargers already cooled down sufficiently.
And do not operate the old ladies at or close to their limits. I have flown the C421 with 8 POB and sufficient fuel for 2 hours at 40 degrees Celsius out of places like Florence or Milan. I am pretty sure that we would have had a chance to survive an engine failure. Or maybe not. But the planes were less than ten years old then, and most importantly there were specialised and qualified maintenance shops who looked after them. One could really climb out with all pointers at the red line for 20 minutes which is how long it took to reach a safe altitude for crossing the Alps. At their current age and maintenance state this would be plain suicide. Don't force the planes up to high altitudes either. The manual states that FL250 can be achieved with legal pressurisation and FL300 with the cabin pressure above 10.000ft and wearing oxygen masks. However, everything above FL200 puts an enormous strain on the engines. It takes forever to climb from FL200 to FL250 (I have never flown a 421 above that, not even for an Atlantic crossing) with everything at the red line. And it does not even offer an advantage, because the time lost due to the slowish climb speed will not be compensated by the few extra Knots of TAS 5000 feet higher. This is not a jet, it is a piston engined plane.
Back in the 1990ies I have flown a lot in the C421 and also the non-pressurised but likewise engined C404, and we found that for most flights within Europe we got the best performace from flying between FL160 and FL200 depending on the distance. We operated it at temperatures from 40 degress C down to maybe -15 without any special precautions. Below -15 I would either preheat the engines or put it into a hangar until shortly before start-up. You will also find that at temperatures below freezing a ground power unit may be required to get the engines started. With the battery alone you might get only one attempt which most certainly will fail. And one more thing: Let someone who knows his way around these planes show you how to start a hot engine. Many starter motors have been burned out by pilots failing to get the engines running when hot...
Apart from that it is a very fine aircraft. A delight to fly, solid performance abd very very quiet inside. We only bothered to wear headsets back then when we had passegers in order to save them the nuisance of the constant radio noise. It has no problems with ice and the anti-ice systems - if you need them at all - do their job properly. Most C421s that are still flying have had their avionics upgarded to some kind of Garmin or Avidyne glass cockpit. Which I think is a necessity because you will probably not find an avionics shop enywhere that can still service the original Cessna/Sperry/ARC (the name changed over the years but the avionics were always the same) electro-mechanical units.
Enjoy the experience!
Regards
Max
NB: If you are anywhere near my homebase I might be able to help you with the training as I am still qualified to do it.
The C421 is a truly wonderful aircraft in (almost) every respect. But by now, all the surviving ones are old ladies and need to be treated as such. The latest one was built in 1986 if I remember correctly. But to be honest, they already needed to be treated as old ladies even when they were young.
As you already know, the engines are a little more delicate than more simple piston engines. The reduction gears do not like load reversals, so do not use the propellers for braking (as one would do in a turboprop) but make sure that the props are always pulling the aeroplane. There are no adjustable cowl flaps in the nacelles which means that the cylinders must be saved from shock-cooling, which will lead to cracks, by the pilot. This is most easily done by carefully planning the descent. Try not to descend at more than 1000ft/min so that the engines are always delivering power. And likewise try to not reduce the power by more than 1inHg per minute. The C421 has a high enough Vne that permits such powered descents. As an addidtional benefit you will find that you can do your initial approach at almost the same speed as the jets around you. I was taught to operate these engines like one would operate a FADEC jet engine today. Maximum thrust (not! full throttles, but manifold pressure and RPM limits) for take-off and from then on only reduce the power for the remainder of the flight: Climb setting at a safe altitude, then cruise setting and thereafter a continuous reduction from top of descent until touchdown. On a smooth paved surcace the plane can be taxied with the engines at idle, which means that you will reach your parking position with the engines and turbochargers already cooled down sufficiently.
And do not operate the old ladies at or close to their limits. I have flown the C421 with 8 POB and sufficient fuel for 2 hours at 40 degrees Celsius out of places like Florence or Milan. I am pretty sure that we would have had a chance to survive an engine failure. Or maybe not. But the planes were less than ten years old then, and most importantly there were specialised and qualified maintenance shops who looked after them. One could really climb out with all pointers at the red line for 20 minutes which is how long it took to reach a safe altitude for crossing the Alps. At their current age and maintenance state this would be plain suicide. Don't force the planes up to high altitudes either. The manual states that FL250 can be achieved with legal pressurisation and FL300 with the cabin pressure above 10.000ft and wearing oxygen masks. However, everything above FL200 puts an enormous strain on the engines. It takes forever to climb from FL200 to FL250 (I have never flown a 421 above that, not even for an Atlantic crossing) with everything at the red line. And it does not even offer an advantage, because the time lost due to the slowish climb speed will not be compensated by the few extra Knots of TAS 5000 feet higher. This is not a jet, it is a piston engined plane.
Back in the 1990ies I have flown a lot in the C421 and also the non-pressurised but likewise engined C404, and we found that for most flights within Europe we got the best performace from flying between FL160 and FL200 depending on the distance. We operated it at temperatures from 40 degress C down to maybe -15 without any special precautions. Below -15 I would either preheat the engines or put it into a hangar until shortly before start-up. You will also find that at temperatures below freezing a ground power unit may be required to get the engines started. With the battery alone you might get only one attempt which most certainly will fail. And one more thing: Let someone who knows his way around these planes show you how to start a hot engine. Many starter motors have been burned out by pilots failing to get the engines running when hot...
Apart from that it is a very fine aircraft. A delight to fly, solid performance abd very very quiet inside. We only bothered to wear headsets back then when we had passegers in order to save them the nuisance of the constant radio noise. It has no problems with ice and the anti-ice systems - if you need them at all - do their job properly. Most C421s that are still flying have had their avionics upgarded to some kind of Garmin or Avidyne glass cockpit. Which I think is a necessity because you will probably not find an avionics shop enywhere that can still service the original Cessna/Sperry/ARC (the name changed over the years but the avionics were always the same) electro-mechanical units.
Enjoy the experience!
Regards
Max
NB: If you are anywhere near my homebase I might be able to help you with the training as I am still qualified to do it.
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Join Date: Dec 2009
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Thanks for all the good input. It certainly seems that the 421 is a great airplane and I’m looking forward to go flying the beauty.
I’ll be trained properly for this beauty as the ATO that I’m using have an instructor with 421 experience but @ Max. Thanks for the offer!
I’ll be trained properly for this beauty as the ATO that I’m using have an instructor with 421 experience but @ Max. Thanks for the offer!
Make sure the check pilot for your renewal does not quickly fail an engine for the single engine required elements.
I have plenty of time in 421 and 404 also, and like them but in the old days no one would use one for a renewal but would instead use something that did not require the engines to be so carefully managed.
I have plenty of time in 421 and 404 also, and like them but in the old days no one would use one for a renewal but would instead use something that did not require the engines to be so carefully managed.
