Dale Earnhardt, Jr, Cessna Citation C680 Latitude Crash
Well 1400m 3700ft on a hot summer day... That sounds pretty tight even for such a great aircraft. What was the load?
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When the airplane finally stopped bouncing/leaving the runway, there was only 1000 Ft of runway remaining. The drag from the collapsed right main gear and the deceleration of going through a chain link fence might have prevented this from being so much worse. The airplane could have continued on across the highway, into another ditch and possibly impacted other structures. I'm sure the crew is devastated, but everyone got out alive and well and that's by far the most important thing.
Absolutely, even if the outcome had most likely more to do with luck than anything else.
Still... Perfect weather, plenty of space, modern and probably fairly tolerant aircraft, no apparent malfunction. This looks really bad on the crew.
Still... Perfect weather, plenty of space, modern and probably fairly tolerant aircraft, no apparent malfunction. This looks really bad on the crew.
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Well 1400m 3700ft on a hot summer day... That sounds pretty tight even for such a great aircraft.
BOM about 19000 plus 1000 payload (2,5 person is way less, just lets pretend they have a lof luggage = 20000lbs. Mindiv fuel roughly 1500lbs, that would put the AC at about 21500-22000.
2350*1,67 -> 3925ft. And LDA apprently had nothing to do with the accident.
Last edited by His dudeness; 25th Aug 2019 at 19:59. Reason: 2000ft changed to 20000lbs, just to make sense
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IAD. WATAUM? Even the FAALOA IOLU.*
Can you be bothered to read the thread before posting ? 4500ft of rwy is plenty for C680/C680A. At 35°C she'd use, at MLM, an unfactored LDR 2740ft. 2350 at a reasonable LDM of 22000lbs.
BOM about 19000 plus 1000 payload (2,5 person is way less, just lets pretend they have a lof luggage = 2000ft. Mindiv fuel roughly 1500lbs, that would put the AC at about 21500-22000.
2350*1,67 -> 3925ft. And LDA apprently had nothing to do with the accident.
BOM about 19000 plus 1000 payload (2,5 person is way less, just lets pretend they have a lof luggage = 2000ft. Mindiv fuel roughly 1500lbs, that would put the AC at about 21500-22000.
2350*1,67 -> 3925ft. And LDA apprently had nothing to do with the accident.
Cheers,
Grog
* I Admit Defeat. What Do The Acronyms Used Mean? Even the FAA List Of Acronyms Is Of Little Use.
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I have looked at several data bases of Aviation Acronyms, including three belonging to the FAA, but I'm still unaware of the meanings of your acronyms: BOM, LDA, LDM, LDR and MLM. It's been a long time since I've flown anything professionally (steam gauge era), so I admit my relative ignorance. I would appreciate a translation. Oh, by the way, I agree with your analysis ... to the extent I
understand it.
Cheers,
Grog
* I Admit Defeat. What Do The Acronyms Used Mean? Even the FAA List Of Acronyms Is Of Little Use.
understand it.
Cheers,
Grog
* I Admit Defeat. What Do The Acronyms Used Mean? Even the FAA List Of Acronyms Is Of Little Use.
I have looked at several data bases of Aviation Acronyms, including three belonging to the FAA, but I'm still unaware of the meanings of your acronyms: BOM, LDA, LDM, LDR and MLM. It's been a long time since I've flown anything professionally (steam gauge era), so I admit my relative ignorance. I would appreciate a translation. Oh, by the way, I agree with your analysis ... to the extent I understand it.
Cheers,
Grog
* I Admit Defeat. What Do The Acronyms Used Mean? Even the FAA List Of Acronyms Is Of Little Use.
Cheers,
Grog
* I Admit Defeat. What Do The Acronyms Used Mean? Even the FAA List Of Acronyms Is Of Little Use.
LDA Landing Distance Available.
LDR Landing Distance Required
MLM Maximum Landing Mass
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BOM Basic Operating Mass. The Euro term for Weight.
LDA Landing Distance Available.
LDR Landing Distance Required
MLM Maximum Landing Mass
LDA Landing Distance Available.
LDR Landing Distance Required
MLM Maximum Landing Mass
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Thanks and yes, thats what I meant to say. Plus CG, I started on steam gauges and weights as well... but being in lala-EASAland (Europe) means, reinventing the wheel is just what "we" do. Operating currently on the 4th set of rules til I started flying (started on German Air Law, then transferred to JAA Rules and regs, then EU-OPS and now I have to obey to EASA-OPS regs. I´m glad I remember my own
name....
name....
I was referring (as quoted) to galaxy flyer’s mention of his acquaintance making a direct flight out of LSGK to OMDB with a G7500. THAT is pretty amazing and I'd really like to see the performance calculations.
Definitely somewhat a thread drift and I fully agree that the botched landing we are actually discussing here had plenty of room.
Last edited by atakacs; 26th Aug 2019 at 19:28.
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Hi!
This is getting way off topic now, but I am a proud European ;.) who flies a plane built by Yanks. The "AFM" (different Yanks call it "POH") keeps talking about "weight", but the figures it displays are all accompanied by units of mass ("lb" and "kg"). A big confusion so to say which I guess is caused by handbook writers with very little background in phyiscs. I am pretty much certain that the engineers who designed the plane used "mass" for their calculations otherwise the thing wouldn't fly as good as it does.
This is getting way off topic now, but I am a proud European ;.) who flies a plane built by Yanks. The "AFM" (different Yanks call it "POH") keeps talking about "weight", but the figures it displays are all accompanied by units of mass ("lb" and "kg"). A big confusion so to say which I guess is caused by handbook writers with very little background in phyiscs. I am pretty much certain that the engineers who designed the plane used "mass" for their calculations otherwise the thing wouldn't fly as good as it does.
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Hi!
This is getting way off topic now, but I am a proud European ;.) who flies a plane built by Yanks. The "AFM" (different Yanks call it "POH") keeps talking about "weight", but the figures it displays are all accompanied by units of mass ("lb" and "kg"). A
big confusion so to say which I guess is caused
by handbook writers with very little background in
phyiscs. I am pretty much certain that the
engineers who designed the plane used "mass"
for their calculations otherwise the thing wouldn't
fly as good as it does.
This is getting way off topic now, but I am a proud European ;.) who flies a plane built by Yanks. The "AFM" (different Yanks call it "POH") keeps talking about "weight", but the figures it displays are all accompanied by units of mass ("lb" and "kg"). A
big confusion so to say which I guess is caused
by handbook writers with very little background in
phyiscs. I am pretty much certain that the
engineers who designed the plane used "mass"
for their calculations otherwise the thing wouldn't
fly as good as it does.
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Impressive review and summary:
Engineering Review of Data
Vref+19; throttles at idle during entire approach; time at idle 1:52; no speedbrake deployment at touchdown; bounce lasted 9.4 seconds.
Engineering Review of Data
Vref+19; throttles at idle during entire approach; time at idle 1:52; no speedbrake deployment at touchdown; bounce lasted 9.4 seconds.
Vref+19
throttles at idle during entire approach; time at idle 1:52
no speedbrake deployment at touchdown
bounce lasted 9.4 seconds.
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- Scud running when there is an appropriate IFR approach available
- Behind the airplane
- No go around on approach when high/fast (when initially spoken about it)
- No checklists
- No (apparent) crew briefing for landing (would have included risk factors such as high landing weight, short runway, weather, etc.)
- Non-standard landing procedure (immediate deployment of T/Rs before speedbrakes and established ground mode)
- Flat landing with no apparent flare (likely due to speed) causing bounce
- Horrible bounce recovery and subsequent ambiguity about 2nd bounce recovery
- Attempted go-around without power (due to T/Rs not stowed) and inappropriate response to it (although airborne T/R deployment may have caused pitch up)
- Absolute lack of appropriate use of speedbrakes
- Lack of appropriate use of T/Rs throughout the event, both in deployment and (lack of) retraction
Anyway, reading that was downright scary. Collision with the ditch at the end had to hurt but more importantly looking at the pictures it doesn't take a lot of imagination to see how the cyclone fence could have also blocked all exit from the aircraft. This could have been way worse.
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I'll give them this, that the T/Rs deploying at this time may have cause an uncommanded pitch up that they were not prepared for and didn't have enough elevator authority to stop...but this is the THIRD bounce...the control of the aircraft was lost well before then.