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Dale Earnhardt, Jr, Cessna Citation C680 Latitude Crash

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Dale Earnhardt, Jr, Cessna Citation C680 Latitude Crash

Old 24th Aug 2019, 19:02
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by galaxy flyer View Post
i dont think you appreciate the field performance of some bizjets. A friend of mine just did Gstaad (LSGK) elevation and length similar to Elizabethton and flew non-stop to Dubai in G7500.
Well 1400m 3700ft on a hot summer day... That sounds pretty tight even for such a great aircraft. What was the load?
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Old 24th Aug 2019, 19:33
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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When the airplane finally stopped bouncing/leaving the runway, there was only 1000 Ft of runway remaining. The drag from the collapsed right main gear and the deceleration of going through a chain link fence might have prevented this from being so much worse. The airplane could have continued on across the highway, into another ditch and possibly impacted other structures. I'm sure the crew is devastated, but everyone got out alive and well and that's by far the most important thing.
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Old 24th Aug 2019, 19:40
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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Absolutely, even if the outcome had most likely more to do with luck than anything else.
Still... Perfect weather, plenty of space, modern and probably fairly tolerant aircraft, no apparent malfunction. This looks really bad on the crew.
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Old 25th Aug 2019, 03:14
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by atakacs View Post

Well 1400m 3700ft on a hot summer day... That sounds pretty tight even for such a great aircraft. What was the load?
Only 3 pax, I believe. Lots of planning and performance engineering.
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Old 25th Aug 2019, 14:46
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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Well 1400m 3700ft on a hot summer day... That sounds pretty tight even for such a great aircraft.
Can you be bothered to read the thread before posting ? 4500ft of rwy is plenty for C680/C680A. At 35C she'd use, at MLM, an unfactored LDR 2740ft. 2350 at a reasonable LDM of 22000lbs.

BOM about 19000 plus 1000 payload (2,5 person is way less, just lets pretend they have a lof luggage = 20000lbs. Mindiv fuel roughly 1500lbs, that would put the AC at about 21500-22000.

2350*1,67 -> 3925ft. And LDA apprently had nothing to do with the accident.

Last edited by His dudeness; 25th Aug 2019 at 19:59. Reason: 2000ft changed to 20000lbs, just to make sense
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Old 25th Aug 2019, 18:20
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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IAD. WATAUM? Even the FAALOA IOLU.*

Originally Posted by His dudeness View Post
Can you be bothered to read the thread before posting ? 4500ft of rwy is plenty for C680/C680A. At 35C she'd use, at MLM, an unfactored LDR 2740ft. 2350 at a reasonable LDM of 22000lbs.

BOM about 19000 plus 1000 payload (2,5 person is way less, just lets pretend they have a lof luggage = 2000ft. Mindiv fuel roughly 1500lbs, that would put the AC at about 21500-22000.

2350*1,67 -> 3925ft. And LDA apprently had nothing to do with the accident.
I have looked at several data bases of Aviation Acronyms, including three belonging to the FAA, but I'm still unaware of the meanings of your acronyms: BOM, LDA, LDM, LDR and MLM. It's been a long time since I've flown anything professionally (steam gauge era), so I admit my relative ignorance. I would appreciate a translation. Oh, by the way, I agree with your analysis ... to the extent I understand it.

Cheers,
Grog

* I Admit Defeat. What Do The Acronyms Used Mean? Even the FAA List Of Acronyms Is Of Little Use.
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Old 25th Aug 2019, 18:42
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by capngrog View Post
I have looked at several data bases of Aviation Acronyms, including three belonging to the FAA, but I'm still unaware of the meanings of your acronyms: BOM, LDA, LDM, LDR and MLM. It's been a long time since I've flown anything professionally (steam gauge era), so I admit my relative ignorance. I would appreciate a translation. Oh, by the way, I agree with your analysis ... to the extent I
understand it.

Cheers,
Grog

* I Admit Defeat. What Do The Acronyms Used Mean? Even the FAA List Of Acronyms Is Of Little Use.
As a retired steam gauge professional, I salute you, Grog!
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Old 25th Aug 2019, 19:23
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by capngrog View Post
I have looked at several data bases of Aviation Acronyms, including three belonging to the FAA, but I'm still unaware of the meanings of your acronyms: BOM, LDA, LDM, LDR and MLM. It's been a long time since I've flown anything professionally (steam gauge era), so I admit my relative ignorance. I would appreciate a translation. Oh, by the way, I agree with your analysis ... to the extent I understand it.

Cheers,
Grog

* I Admit Defeat. What Do The Acronyms Used Mean? Even the FAA List Of Acronyms Is Of Little Use.
BOM Basic Operating Mass. The Euro term for Weight.
LDA Landing Distance Available.
LDR Landing Distance Required
MLM Maximum Landing Mass
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Old 25th Aug 2019, 19:57
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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BOM Basic Operating Mass. The Euro term for Weight.
LDA Landing Distance Available.
LDR Landing Distance Required
MLM Maximum Landing Mass
Thanks and yes, thats what I meant to say. Plus CG, I started on steam gauges and weights as well... but being in lala-EASAland (Europe) means, reinventing the wheel is just what "we" do. Operating currently on the 4th set of rules til I started flying (started on German Air Law, then transferred to JAA Rules and regs, then EU-OPS and now I have to obey to EASA-OPS regs. Im glad I remember my own name....
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Old 25th Aug 2019, 20:10
  #70 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by His dudeness View Post
Thanks and yes, thats what I meant to say. Plus CG, I started on steam gauges and weights as well... but being in lala-EASAland (Europe) means, reinventing the wheel is just what "we" do. Operating currently on the 4th set of rules til I started flying (started on German Air Law, then transferred to JAA Rules and regs, then EU-OPS and now I have to obey to EASA-OPS regs. Im glad I remember my own
name....
All well and good, but we Yanks are reading this thread, also. And I bet the FAA-approved flight manual onboard N8JR didn't have the word "mass" anywhere in the weight & balance section.
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Old 25th Aug 2019, 20:20
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by His dudeness View Post
Can you be bothered to read the thread before posting ? 4500ft of rwy is plenty for C680/C680A. At 35C she'd use, at MLM, an unfactored LDR 2740ft. 2350 at a reasonable LDM of 22000lbs.
Yes I did - which was apparently not your case...

I was referring (as quoted) to galaxy flyers mention of his acquaintance making a direct flight out of LSGK to OMDB with a G7500. THAT is pretty amazing and I'd really like to see the performance calculations.

Definitely somewhat a thread drift and I fully agree that the botched landing we are actually discussing here had plenty of room.

Last edited by atakacs; 26th Aug 2019 at 19:28.
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Old 25th Aug 2019, 20:48
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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Hi!

Originally Posted by sprag47 View Post
... but we Yanks ...
This is getting way off topic now, but I am a proud European ;.) who flies a plane built by Yanks. The "AFM" (different Yanks call it "POH") keeps talking about "weight", but the figures it displays are all accompanied by units of mass ("lb" and "kg"). A big confusion so to say which I guess is caused by handbook writers with very little background in phyiscs. I am pretty much certain that the engineers who designed the plane used "mass" for their calculations otherwise the thing wouldn't fly as good as it does.
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Old 25th Aug 2019, 21:02
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by what next View Post
Hi!



This is getting way off topic now, but I am a proud European ;.) who flies a plane built by Yanks. The "AFM" (different Yanks call it "POH") keeps talking about "weight", but the figures it displays are all accompanied by units of mass ("lb" and "kg"). A
big confusion so to say which I guess is caused
by handbook writers with very little background in
phyiscs. I am pretty much certain that the
engineers who designed the plane used "mass"
for their calculations otherwise the thing wouldn't
fly as good as it does.
Okay. Fine.
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 09:54
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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NTSB Accident Docket
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 11:05
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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Impressive review and summary:
Engineering Review of Data

Vref+19; throttles at idle during entire approach; time at idle 1:52; no speedbrake deployment at touchdown; bounce lasted 9.4 seconds.
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Old 21st Jul 2020, 20:08
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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Vref+19
Not good but (unfortunately) not unheard of...

throttles at idle during entire approach; time at idle 1:52
Well given the above if anything they certainly did not more thrust... Or am I missing something ?

no speedbrake deployment at touchdown
Is there some automation for this on the C680/C680A ?

bounce lasted 9.4 seconds.
Woaaa... that not a bounce, it's a go around !
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Old 21st Jul 2020, 20:45
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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Is there some automation for this on the C680/C680A ?
No, pilot has to deploy spoilers after touchdown
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Old 22nd Jul 2020, 16:25
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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  • Scud running when there is an appropriate IFR approach available
  • Behind the airplane
  • No go around on approach when high/fast (when initially spoken about it)
  • No checklists
  • No (apparent) crew briefing for landing (would have included risk factors such as high landing weight, short runway, weather, etc.)
  • Non-standard landing procedure (immediate deployment of T/Rs before speedbrakes and established ground mode)
  • Flat landing with no apparent flare (likely due to speed) causing bounce
  • Horrible bounce recovery and subsequent ambiguity about 2nd bounce recovery
  • Attempted go-around without power (due to T/Rs not stowed) and inappropriate response to it (although airborne T/R deployment may have caused pitch up)
  • Absolute lack of appropriate use of speedbrakes
  • Lack of appropriate use of T/Rs throughout the event, both in deployment and (lack of) retraction
Did I mention no checklists? I trained a few years ago with another knuckleheads who didn't use checklists...imagine my shock when it turns out his flight department was involved in a somewhat high profile multi-fatality accodent?! It boggles my mind...how lazy and unprofessional do you have to be to not read & respond for 5-10 seconds?!

Anyway, reading that was downright scary. Collision with the ditch at the end had to hurt but more importantly looking at the pictures it doesn't take a lot of imagination to see how the cyclone fence could have also blocked all exit from the aircraft. This could have been way worse.
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Old 22nd Jul 2020, 16:30
  #79 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by atakacs View Post
Woaaa... that not a bounce, it's a go around !
I'll give them this, that the T/Rs deploying at this time may have cause an uncommanded pitch up that they were not prepared for and didn't have enough elevator authority to stop...but this is the THIRD bounce...the control of the aircraft was lost well before then.
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Old 22nd Jul 2020, 19:40
  #80 (permalink)  
 
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Juan Browne:
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