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Dale Earnhardt, Jr, Cessna Citation C680 Latitude Crash

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Dale Earnhardt, Jr, Cessna Citation C680 Latitude Crash

Old 18th Aug 2019, 01:07
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bobby G View Post
733 driver - you're putting too much effort into the analysis. Who cares which runway. The wind was calm (no good) it's a marginally long enough runway and every semi-smart corporate driver knows exactly what happened. They pranged it.
Yep. And a 3800 ft DA didn't help.
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Old 18th Aug 2019, 07:28
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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"it's a marginally long enough runway"

I have 3500+ hours/2000+landings in the straight 680. If the 5000ft distance given above is correct, than its not "marginally long enough". (as several people in this thread have already pointed out!) You can plant the C680s into 3500ft COMFORTABLY if you know what you doing even at high weights and regarding to Vref close to touchdown: this airplane slows down really really hard with full flaps and idle power. E.g. If you are at max speed for full flaps (175KIAS) at 2.5 nm and youre putting em down and stay in idle, you crash and burn in FRONT of the runway. She flies much like a KingAir 200 with props in high RPM and full flaps at this stage, if that gives you an idea.
What is a nono at least in the straight 680 is force her down on a higher speed (Vref plus say 5 or 10) AND deploy speed brakes in quick movement without pushing the yoke forward. That CAN get you airborne again. (speedbrakes are manually extended and have a distinct nose up effect). This MIGHT have played a role.

What adverse role does a DA in CAVOK play ?

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Old 18th Aug 2019, 15:43
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by atakacs View Post

no access to the "pro" version but what kind of reading do we have for previous landings (maybe not that aircraft but I'm sure other c680 have landed here)?
I deleted the message you are quoting. That data was for a 525 landing there an hour earlier. N8JR is not available for tracking.
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Old 18th Aug 2019, 16:55
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Well so no ADS-B sleuthing then 🙃
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Old 18th Aug 2019, 22:17
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by His dudeness View Post
"it's a marginally long enough runway"

I have 3500+ hours/2000+landings in the straight 680. If the 5000ft distance given above is correct, than its not "marginally long enough". (as several people in this thread have already pointed out!) You can plant the C680s into 3500ft COMFORTABLY if you know what you doing even at high weights and regarding to Vref close to touchdown: this airplane slows down really really hard with full flaps and idle power. E.g. If you are at max speed for full flaps (175KIAS) at 2.5 nm and youre putting em down and stay in idle, you crash and burn in FRONT of the runway. She flies much like a KingAir 200 with props in high RPM and full flaps at this stage, if that gives you an idea.
What is a nono at least in the straight 680 is force her down on a higher speed (Vref plus say 5 or 10) AND deploy speed brakes in quick movement without pushing the yoke forward. That CAN get you airborne again. (speedbrakes are manually extended and have a distinct nose up effect). This MIGHT have played a role.

What adverse role does a DA in CAVOK play ?
think you’re way overthinking this
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Old 18th Aug 2019, 22:26
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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DA (in this case, I think) is Density Altitude, not Decision Altitude.
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Old 18th Aug 2019, 23:16
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by His dudeness View Post
Private ops -> not required. Saves a lot of money not to have to buy and maintain it.
Isn't it about time that the insurance companies made requirements more stringent than government?
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Old 19th Aug 2019, 07:33
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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DA (in this case, I think) is Density Altitude, not Decision Altitude.
Guess you´re right. Still the number don´t change much between 2000 and 4000ft in a 680. Add between 110 and 150 ft to the 2000ft numbers (the ones I posted are already taking temp into account, what was the pressure then?)
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Old 19th Aug 2019, 12:16
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by His dudeness View Post
Guess you´re right. Still the number don´t change much between 2000 and 4000ft in a 680. Add between 110 and 150 ft to the 2000ft numbers (the ones I posted are already taking temp into account, what was the pressure then?)
29.97. Dewpoint 19
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Old 19th Aug 2019, 12:53
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Junior was at the controls, maybe. ;-)
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Old 19th Aug 2019, 17:13
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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What adverse role does a DA in CAVOK play ?
Increased TAS over standard day, about +5kts in this case
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Old 20th Aug 2019, 08:30
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Increased TAS over standard day, about +5kts in this case
Yes, and thats reflected in the numbers I posted. To say it again: at MLM, unfactored LDR for the Latitude at 2000ft at 35° is 2740ft. 2350 at a reasonable LDM of 22000lbs. These numbers would still decrease a tad for higher than standard pressure. The increase from 10° at 200ft is about 160ft at MLM and 120 ft at the lowest given weight.
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Old 21st Aug 2019, 00:03
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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I think you’re on to something here. If you’re trying to save an unstable approach (fast and a little high) with flight idle and just rolling trim back, you’ll find that you’ve trimmed the elevator into a position where you don’t have enough elevator to flare. Couple this with the fact that you have to manually deploy the spoilers upon touch down, things can get out of hand quickly.
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Old 21st Aug 2019, 02:02
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 787PIC View Post

A redneck worshiped by millions of NASCAR crazies with MAGA hats!😎
Perhaps intimidated his pilots to take this brand new high performance jet into an airport (0A9) that is barely OK for a small prop aircraft.
(1600’ altitude and about 4500’ long runway, with a displaced threshold, surrounded by high terrain.)
Not sure if he owned this jet or chartered?
Either way, a lot of low time inexperienced 135/91 pilots are intimidated to fly into these small airports because it is convenient for the owner or renter!
i don’t think you appreciate the field performance of some bizjets. A friend of mine just did Gstaad (LSGK) elevation and length similar to Elizabethton and flew non-stop to Dubai in G7500.
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Old 22nd Aug 2019, 01:40
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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GF,

As soon as I read the words Redneck, NASCAR crazies, and MAGA hats.....he surrendered all credibility.

Like airline pilots never run off the end of runways either.
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Old 23rd Aug 2019, 18:02
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SASless View Post
GF,

As soon as I read the words Redneck, NASCAR crazies, and MAGA hats.....he surrendered all credibility.

Like airline pilots never run off the end of runways either.
SAS, he's just another one of those people who are experts on an airplane they never flew, an airport they never visited, and a sporting event they never attended.
Sadly becoming all to common these days...
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Old 24th Aug 2019, 12:58
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Like airline pilots never run off the end of runways either.
They do, 737 drivers apparently quite often. But these guys seem to have bounced it 'til it broke and then overran (guess after last ummpff there wasn´t much they could have done)

Anyhuw, I´m just very glad it did not happen to me, not a position one wants to be in...
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Old 24th Aug 2019, 12:58
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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NTSB preliminary report makes for interesting reading. After the 2nd "bounce" pilot initiated a go around. When that didn't look good he decided to put it back on the runway. LG broke on 2nd bounce
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Old 24th Aug 2019, 18:11
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by OldCessna View Post
NTSB preliminary report makes for interesting reading.
https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...=HTML&IType=FA

Accident Number:
ERA19FA248
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Old 24th Aug 2019, 18:49
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by OldCessna View Post
NTSB preliminary report makes for interesting reading. After the 2nd "bounce" pilot initiated a go around. When that didn't look good he decided to put it back on the runway. LG broke on 2nd bounce
Well that indeed sounds like a completely botched landing.
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