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VistaJet occurrence in Seattle

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VistaJet occurrence in Seattle

Old 9th Jul 2019, 16:52
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VistaJet occurrence in Seattle


Nevermind the wrong aircraft in the title, how can this crew consider themselves even partly professional?
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Old 9th Jul 2019, 21:42
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Well that was special to say the least.
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Old 10th Jul 2019, 08:08
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Crew sounds European to me, possibly Dutch and British, so maybe not too familiar with the peculiarities of the US ATC - thats what happens when every state "cooks its own soup" - aka national regs are way to different. Its the little things - can we get a clearance airborne ? Donīt wanna excuse these guys (the interesting bit before startup is missing, btw), but I have heard umpteen American guys screw up over here, mostly minor things (my father was an ATCO at a civilian field joint with an US airbase on it)...but still the underlying problem are the differences. And now add stress to it and things go out of hand quick in such an environment.
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Old 10th Jul 2019, 08:53
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With the limited information available, there appears to have been a breakdown in communications from the "pre-flight" communications - as has been alluded to here, we really need to know what was discussed with Clearance Delivery, prior to them getting airborne.
Obviously the crew were also low on situational awareness once airborne - they appeared to be attempting to fly "IFR procedures" whilst VFR - eg. flying constant headings that had been "advised VFR headings" - and expecting separation to be positively provided by ATC from other aircraft - rather than looking out and avoiding it.
Flying VFR in a foreign airspace is a massive challenge for aircrew that probably NEVER fly VFR. Most international bizjet pilots would never fly VFR and probably have a limited understanding of the concepts and regulations. That said, if you don't understand the concepts and regulations, don't fly VFR.
As an aside, I must admit, I've had some strange experiences flying IFR in Class C airspace into the US - in particular into KTEB. I am IFR, established in Class C, given a descent to an altitude and then warned about VFR traffic ahead and below?? On one occasion this resulted in a level-off and deviation away from the (finally) spotted traffic. Anywhere else in the world, I am actively and positively separated from this sort of aircraft - and from what I read in the FAA rules, I should also be in the US?? The ATC'er at the time didn't think anything was out of the ordinary... Perhaps someone with local (US experience) can enlighten me?
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Old 10th Jul 2019, 09:00
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Would there be an investigation in the US after this?

As I can see it, there were at least two times loss of separation involved.
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Old 10th Jul 2019, 11:24
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I've had some strange experiences flying IFR in Class C airspace into the US - in particular into KTEB. I am IFR, established in Class C, given a descent to an altitude and then warned about VFR traffic ahead and below??
Well you've proved your own point about familiarity with other countries procedures - most of the descent into Teterboro you are in Class E airspace, so you should be expecting uncontrolled VFR traffic.
The other point that struck me on the recording is that twice the VJ crew were told to turn tighter due to airspace issues, and their response was "we are at the bank limit". Therefore they were flying far too fast as well as the other issues. They probably rushed to clean up and had a manoevring speed of 210 instead of leaving the slats out and having 170.
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Old 10th Jul 2019, 11:28
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As an aside, I must admit, I've had some strange experiences flying IFR in Class C airspace into the US - in particular into KTEB. I am IFR, established in Class C, given a descent to an altitude and then warned about VFR traffic ahead and below??
Class D around KTEB, isn't it? In which case IFR and VFR is not separated, only traffic information is given. There is nothing special about the US in that regard, the ICAO SARPS has it that way too.
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Old 10th Jul 2019, 12:03
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I'll just cross-post this from the thread in Rumours & News... No time to listen to the feeds myself but as a user commented on the Youtube video:

The facts are available by listening to the feed from Ground. An IFR clearance to Athens was given and flight plan filed. Vistajet 868 asked to depart via the opposite runway due to the aircraft being too heavy for the active runway (obstacles on departure flight path). Ground agreed this could be done only as a VFR departure. When transferred to the Tower frequency the ground controlled did not pass on the details to them correctly. Consequently, the Tower thought they intended to reland. The aircraft was then asked to manoeuvre in an area too small for it due to it’s heavy weight and minimum speed.
Sounds plausible to me and would simply mean a screw up in communication from ATC. If it was coordinated like this on ground with ATC then tower should not be expecting a traffic pattern, though the VJ crew might not have been completely aware of what accepting the VFR departure might mean for them.
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Old 10th Jul 2019, 12:09
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From the clearance feed, looks like an IFR plan was filed and an IFR clearance given to depart to Athens. The crew then asked for the opposite runway for performance reasons (heavy aircraft). Was agreed this could be done VFR only due to airspace constraints. Then later, on the tower frequency, the controller has no idea what their intent was and thinks they want to fly a circuit and land which makes no sense after the initial clearance given. Clearly the aircraft is at max takeoff weight and could not make the turns being asked for. Looks like a breakdown in communication.
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Old 10th Jul 2019, 22:54
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Originally Posted by Flyer458 View Post
From the clearance feed, looks like an IFR plan was filed and an IFR clearance given to depart to Athens. The crew then asked for the opposite runway for performance reasons (heavy aircraft). Was agreed this could be done VFR only due to airspace constraints. Then later, on the tower frequency, the controller has no idea what their intent was and thinks they want to fly a circuit and land which makes no sense after the initial clearance given. Clearly the aircraft is at max takeoff weight and could not make the turns being asked for. Looks like a breakdown in communication.
Yes, this makes sense, Under these circumstances a VFR departure should never have been offered/requested/accepted though, blame on both sides methinks. Still, they obviously got to Athens in the end.
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Old 11th Jul 2019, 00:10
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So if he stays on runway heading VFR over the lake under the Bravo until it ups to 3800 feet, turns right there toward Snoqalmie pass, flys that way, (even up to 17500 unless the pressure is wonky), and then provides his own traffic and terrain clearance until somebody wants to pay attention to him, whatís the harm. North Central Washington until one gets to at least Iowa is an ATC REEALLLY austere environment. VFR over the Bighorns 400 mi later isnít really likely be a problem.

Nearly every time I go to Seattle I fly to Boeing, and Iíve never had an issue in anything from a Single to a BE20

Last edited by 421dog; 11th Jul 2019 at 17:40.
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