From low cost airline to executive aviation
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200 would be even more perfect ;-) Doing my 300 hours per year I alredy feel exploited by my employer...
But kidding apart, I have never encoutered this "the-grass-is/may-be-greener-somewhere-else" attitude as much as in the aviation community. Everybody seems to be more busy looking at what he might miss than to actually enjoy what he has. In my previous occupations everyone was more or less content with what he had and organised his life around it. I must have been the only excemption because I would look at the contrails outside the window and dream of flying while the project manager displayed endless powerpoints about the distribution of man-hours across our tasks on hand.
So really we should be glad that we are among the few (compared to the masses of people confined to the four walls of their offices) who are actually paid for being up there. 200 hours per year or 800 does make a little difference, but the real big difference is in up or down in the first place. And we already are part of the "up" minority. That alone should make us happy.
As I have never been in an airline I cannot really answer the basic question in this thread. From my (very!) personal point of view, business aviation beats airline flying by a wide margin. But all the comparisons I have are actually other people's experience. As already written above, no two jobs in business aviation are the same. There are awful ones and there are terrific ones - just as with the airlines. What an individual considers as "awful" and what as "terrific" is so totally different that I sometimes can hardly believe what I hear... Personally, I hate commuting and proceeding very much (lifetime destroyed completely) and living in hotels for more than one night per week (lifetime partly lost). This is because in my previous life I got used to work close to where I live, started a family there, bought a house, joined local communities, etc. Being moved from base to base depending on passenger numbers (as some airlines did to former pilot buddies of mine) would kill everything that I value in life, as would rosters like 15/15 or 19/11 or what else most companies have on offer that operate the real "sexy" bizjets. But again, without wife and family and no house and no local connections, maybe the money and the adventure would win?
A few thoughts about what has been said so far:
- Fly for a company that has no connection with aviation: 100% agreement. Your job will be totally independent of the job situation in the aviation market. Airlines laying off pilots? Why should I worry as long as people keep buying sports goods (in case my employer makes them or or deals with them - just an example). A real big number of companies have their own flying department without anyone much knowing about that. Just look at what is tucked inside the hangers opposite from the passenger terminals. Like my employer whose name no one seems to have ever heard. The problem is that it is very diffiult to get into this kind of occupation because jobs are not advertised. When I will retire one day (in a private operation this will either be when I want to retire or when the doctor finally says no!) my successor will be chosen or at least proposed to the boss by me.
- If you want to fly for a commercial bizjet operator choose wisely. There are good ones and bad ones, just like in the airline world. NetJets have already been mentioned. I have heard bad things told about many companies but never about them. If you can live with a 6 days on / 5 days off roster (I can't - still way too many nights spent in hotel rooms) and the fact that it will take you something like 9 years to make left seat (no matter how many hours you had when you joined and whether you were captain before or not) then this would be the first choice. You don't even need to be upgraded in your current company because it won't matter anyway.
- The fancy destinations? Nice with one's girlfriend/wife/family, but with that stupid idiot of first officer certainly not. This is one of the main differences between airline and bizjet: In the airline, you fly with someone different every day. In a bizjet it might be the same guy/lady for years and years. If you don't get along with them, the situation can be quite annoying.
- The flying itself? Bizjets and airliners are flown the same way basically: By the autopilot. Watch it do it's job and look down at the overcast. From 10,000ft higher in a bizjet than in an airliner, but clouds look the same from every height. Occasionally in business aviation we go to a destination with no instrument approach and difficult topography, where real flying skills are required. These are the moments worth living for and because of which I would never swap jobs with an airline guy who flies from CAT III airport to CAT III airport :-)
- Job sharing: This might actually be an opportunity for an airline pilot. I know quite a few collegues from the airline who reduced their employment to part-time, bought themselves a Citation rating and fly one or two days per week in the business aviation world. It might be wotrh asking that orange-coloured employer about it. After a couple of years one could maybe make a final choice, having known both worlds by then.
Happy landings
Max
But kidding apart, I have never encoutered this "the-grass-is/may-be-greener-somewhere-else" attitude as much as in the aviation community. Everybody seems to be more busy looking at what he might miss than to actually enjoy what he has. In my previous occupations everyone was more or less content with what he had and organised his life around it. I must have been the only excemption because I would look at the contrails outside the window and dream of flying while the project manager displayed endless powerpoints about the distribution of man-hours across our tasks on hand.
So really we should be glad that we are among the few (compared to the masses of people confined to the four walls of their offices) who are actually paid for being up there. 200 hours per year or 800 does make a little difference, but the real big difference is in up or down in the first place. And we already are part of the "up" minority. That alone should make us happy.
As I have never been in an airline I cannot really answer the basic question in this thread. From my (very!) personal point of view, business aviation beats airline flying by a wide margin. But all the comparisons I have are actually other people's experience. As already written above, no two jobs in business aviation are the same. There are awful ones and there are terrific ones - just as with the airlines. What an individual considers as "awful" and what as "terrific" is so totally different that I sometimes can hardly believe what I hear... Personally, I hate commuting and proceeding very much (lifetime destroyed completely) and living in hotels for more than one night per week (lifetime partly lost). This is because in my previous life I got used to work close to where I live, started a family there, bought a house, joined local communities, etc. Being moved from base to base depending on passenger numbers (as some airlines did to former pilot buddies of mine) would kill everything that I value in life, as would rosters like 15/15 or 19/11 or what else most companies have on offer that operate the real "sexy" bizjets. But again, without wife and family and no house and no local connections, maybe the money and the adventure would win?
A few thoughts about what has been said so far:
- Fly for a company that has no connection with aviation: 100% agreement. Your job will be totally independent of the job situation in the aviation market. Airlines laying off pilots? Why should I worry as long as people keep buying sports goods (in case my employer makes them or or deals with them - just an example). A real big number of companies have their own flying department without anyone much knowing about that. Just look at what is tucked inside the hangers opposite from the passenger terminals. Like my employer whose name no one seems to have ever heard. The problem is that it is very diffiult to get into this kind of occupation because jobs are not advertised. When I will retire one day (in a private operation this will either be when I want to retire or when the doctor finally says no!) my successor will be chosen or at least proposed to the boss by me.
- If you want to fly for a commercial bizjet operator choose wisely. There are good ones and bad ones, just like in the airline world. NetJets have already been mentioned. I have heard bad things told about many companies but never about them. If you can live with a 6 days on / 5 days off roster (I can't - still way too many nights spent in hotel rooms) and the fact that it will take you something like 9 years to make left seat (no matter how many hours you had when you joined and whether you were captain before or not) then this would be the first choice. You don't even need to be upgraded in your current company because it won't matter anyway.
- The fancy destinations? Nice with one's girlfriend/wife/family, but with that stupid idiot of first officer certainly not. This is one of the main differences between airline and bizjet: In the airline, you fly with someone different every day. In a bizjet it might be the same guy/lady for years and years. If you don't get along with them, the situation can be quite annoying.
- The flying itself? Bizjets and airliners are flown the same way basically: By the autopilot. Watch it do it's job and look down at the overcast. From 10,000ft higher in a bizjet than in an airliner, but clouds look the same from every height. Occasionally in business aviation we go to a destination with no instrument approach and difficult topography, where real flying skills are required. These are the moments worth living for and because of which I would never swap jobs with an airline guy who flies from CAT III airport to CAT III airport :-)
- Job sharing: This might actually be an opportunity for an airline pilot. I know quite a few collegues from the airline who reduced their employment to part-time, bought themselves a Citation rating and fly one or two days per week in the business aviation world. It might be wotrh asking that orange-coloured employer about it. After a couple of years one could maybe make a final choice, having known both worlds by then.
Happy landings
Max
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Thank you very much what next for your extensive and deep message. I actually feel attracted for a more "hands on" operation as with my airline job I am given all done, having said that, the general consensus says that conditions in bizav are less than ideal unless you find one of those rare employers.
I have decided to postpone it for the time being and maybe in the future, before I quit flying for good, I will give it a go.
Thanks everybody for you input, it has been crucial to help me make a decision.
All the best!
I have decided to postpone it for the time being and maybe in the future, before I quit flying for good, I will give it a go.
Thanks everybody for you input, it has been crucial to help me make a decision.
All the best!
- Job sharing: This might actually be an opportunity for an airline pilot. I know quite a few collegues from the airline who reduced their employment to part-time, bought themselves a Citation rating and fly one or two days per week in the business aviation world. It might be wotrh asking that orange-coloured employer about it. After a couple of years one could maybe make a final choice, having known both worlds by then.
Happy landings
Happy landings
Last edited by Private jet; 17th Feb 2019 at 03:51.
...but the table is something I would really hate to lose!
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There are lots of freelancers in the bizjet world. It has alsways been like this for as long as I can remember. Many of them have another profession or another job beside it. What does it matter if that other job is "musician", "dentist" or "airline pilot"?
Myself I fly part-time in business aviation so that I can freelance as a flying instructor in my spare time. Does that mean that I ruin the T's&C's of the flying school business?
There are lots of freelancers in the bizjet world. It has alsways been like this for as long as I can remember. Many of them have another profession or another job beside it. What does it matter if that other job is "musician", "dentist" or "airline pilot"?
There are lots of freelancers in the bizjet world. It has alsways been like this for as long as I can remember. Many of them have another profession or another job beside it. What does it matter if that other job is "musician", "dentist" or "airline pilot"?
Last edited by Private jet; 22nd Feb 2019 at 20:17.
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we use freelancers a lot as F/A
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I went airline to corporate back in 2009. Took unpaid leave from the airline and never looked back. My plan was if all else failed I could go back and fly an airbus . Before you make the leap , really network and reach out to as many people as you can . Where do you want to live in the world?
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Well, I love Europe so moving to another continent is not on my agenda. Regarding the Command I am not in any rush neither here with the A320 nor if I went to Executive aviation unless the environment in that segment wasn't as good as it is with my current orange employer, in which case I would be more prone to move quickly to the left seat.
In all these weeks I have been reading and gathering info about this market but most importantly I have been fine tuning my motivations and I can clearly say now that what I am looking for is just "more fun", excitement, variety, "hands on" operation, closer contact to customers, more of a pilot and less of a number, etc....The A320 pays the bills but honestly I can't see myself doing that until retirement. I find no excitement in the way I fly now so sooner or later I will make some sort of "move".
For the time being I will stay here, will save some money and consolidate my financial situation, maybe get myself a small jet type rating, I totally LOVE the Pilatus PC24 and its amazing versatility, and in the future either I request unpaid leave or look for a way to get closer to bizav. All this with the utmost respect for the fellow pilots already in this segment and my commitment to make sure that my entry into this field does not harm nor promotes the devaluation of the T&Cs of this business.
Thanks again everyone for your valuable contribution to this thread
FCC
In all these weeks I have been reading and gathering info about this market but most importantly I have been fine tuning my motivations and I can clearly say now that what I am looking for is just "more fun", excitement, variety, "hands on" operation, closer contact to customers, more of a pilot and less of a number, etc....The A320 pays the bills but honestly I can't see myself doing that until retirement. I find no excitement in the way I fly now so sooner or later I will make some sort of "move".
For the time being I will stay here, will save some money and consolidate my financial situation, maybe get myself a small jet type rating, I totally LOVE the Pilatus PC24 and its amazing versatility, and in the future either I request unpaid leave or look for a way to get closer to bizav. All this with the utmost respect for the fellow pilots already in this segment and my commitment to make sure that my entry into this field does not harm nor promotes the devaluation of the T&Cs of this business.
Thanks again everyone for your valuable contribution to this thread
FCC
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With the high likelihood of an economic downturn in the next 1 to 2 years I would highly advice you to sit still in your orange seat, which will protect you much better from being out on the streets during a downturn vs the very sensitive corporate scene. Coming from a life long corporate guy.
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you know guys what funny me a lot ?
that nothing seems to be happen in next 1-2 years , of course everything can happen but nothing special , everything is quite good and I have full of worries that crisis you mentioned will come only because of more and more people are talking about it , that’s it , nothing more , only speculations ...
that nothing seems to be happen in next 1-2 years , of course everything can happen but nothing special , everything is quite good and I have full of worries that crisis you mentioned will come only because of more and more people are talking about it , that’s it , nothing more , only speculations ...
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you know guys what funny me a lot ?
that nothing seems to be happen in next 1-2 years , of course everything can happen but nothing special , everything is quite good and I have full of worries that crisis you mentioned will come only because of more and more people are talking about it , that’s it , nothing more , only speculations ...
that nothing seems to be happen in next 1-2 years , of course everything can happen but nothing special , everything is quite good and I have full of worries that crisis you mentioned will come only because of more and more people are talking about it , that’s it , nothing more , only speculations ...
But I guess it’s easier to bury your head in the sand and not consider potential pitfalls by making a big career move as discussed here.
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you know guys what funny me a lot ?
that nothing seems to be happen in next 1-2 years , of course everything can happen but nothing special , everything is quite good and I have full of worries that crisis you mentioned will come only because of more and more people are talking about it , that’s it , nothing more , only speculations ...
that nothing seems to be happen in next 1-2 years , of course everything can happen but nothing special , everything is quite good and I have full of worries that crisis you mentioned will come only because of more and more people are talking about it , that’s it , nothing more , only speculations ...
Don't do it before you got your CMD in the A320 and plenty of hours PIC. Even then, consider the move very carefully.
Business Aviation can be the job of your dream on a fancy Global Express or Gulfstream and takes you to the most beautiful places, 5 star hotels and on top of that a great salary...
Reality for most Bizav pilots is the exact opposite. Most fly on smaller jets such as Citations, Embraer Phenom, King Air, etc and barely make a living from that. Lots of freelancers that compete for days and drive down the daily rates. Most smaller outfits are too small to participate with the bigger charter companies and it's a race to the bottom condition and even safetywise.
Plus - without any offense - many Airline pilots that flew Boeings or Airbusses before assume, that this experience will lead to immediate Gulfstream, Global Express or Falcon epmployment or even BBJ/ACJ jobs. The reality could be that these guys need to work their way up starting on a smaller jet, possibly with self paid training.
If you really consider it, I would try to go part time with your current job (if that's even possible), try some networking or even consider to buy a cheap typerating (King Air, Cessna Citation, XLS, etc) to get started. Knock on a few doors and get a foot into the world of Business Aviation.
Needless to say that you might have to book your own hotels, arrange transportation, arrange maintenance enroute (oil, oxygen, tire svc), print (or even plan) your flightplans, pay handling fees, arrange fueling, arrange permits, arrange (or buy or even create) catering, buy magazines/newspapers/flowers/alcohol/toys,whatever... for VIP clients, download and install NAV updates on board, update and charge iPads, do online training while in the hotel - and that all is done before you even get to fly the thing... Imagine that with a fresh CPL graduate doing his first rotation with you, with a very demanding client on board, marginal weather into funny planes such as Samedan, Cannes, Sion or Chambery (where you have never been before)... and don't forget the broker who calls you every 15 minutes to ask you if the aircraft is ready And that you do on every day while on duty for 7-15 days in a row for less pay than you make with your current job.
cheers
Business Aviation can be the job of your dream on a fancy Global Express or Gulfstream and takes you to the most beautiful places, 5 star hotels and on top of that a great salary...
Reality for most Bizav pilots is the exact opposite. Most fly on smaller jets such as Citations, Embraer Phenom, King Air, etc and barely make a living from that. Lots of freelancers that compete for days and drive down the daily rates. Most smaller outfits are too small to participate with the bigger charter companies and it's a race to the bottom condition and even safetywise.
Plus - without any offense - many Airline pilots that flew Boeings or Airbusses before assume, that this experience will lead to immediate Gulfstream, Global Express or Falcon epmployment or even BBJ/ACJ jobs. The reality could be that these guys need to work their way up starting on a smaller jet, possibly with self paid training.
If you really consider it, I would try to go part time with your current job (if that's even possible), try some networking or even consider to buy a cheap typerating (King Air, Cessna Citation, XLS, etc) to get started. Knock on a few doors and get a foot into the world of Business Aviation.
Needless to say that you might have to book your own hotels, arrange transportation, arrange maintenance enroute (oil, oxygen, tire svc), print (or even plan) your flightplans, pay handling fees, arrange fueling, arrange permits, arrange (or buy or even create) catering, buy magazines/newspapers/flowers/alcohol/toys,whatever... for VIP clients, download and install NAV updates on board, update and charge iPads, do online training while in the hotel - and that all is done before you even get to fly the thing... Imagine that with a fresh CPL graduate doing his first rotation with you, with a very demanding client on board, marginal weather into funny planes such as Samedan, Cannes, Sion or Chambery (where you have never been before)... and don't forget the broker who calls you every 15 minutes to ask you if the aircraft is ready
And that you do on every day while on duty for 7-15 days in a row for less pay than you make with your current job.cheers
This is why I never wanted anything to do with business aviation, it’s good that it suits some but airline flying was much better for me
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It depends what you compare it to. Joining outfits like Netjets, Flexjet or Vistajet is more like working for an airline but flying a business jet. All you have to think about is flying the plane (but to a greater variety of airports and everything that comes with doing so). It's just a different lifestyle and usually offers you a better flexibility in terms of where to live. Airlines are usually only good long term if you live or want to live where you have your base. Airlines rarely offers rosters liks 6/5, 7/6, 10/8, 17/13, 14/14 etc. That said, for most trained pilots. Business jet flying is not ideal to their type of personality. When I flew in the airlines I had a feeling that the majority of people were more of the bureaucratic type. They don't like the unknown. They want something predictable which they can plan days in advance. While my impression of my colleagues in the business jet sector is that they embrace the unknown and like the variety and challenges that comes with it. So in the end it comes down to how you are as a person.
I don’t remember too many ‘bureaucratic types’ at the airline I flew for and there were plenty of unknown challenges and variety on every single trip flying on a route system that spanned the globe
I’ve heard this mindset promoted before from pilots in the business jet community who try to rationalize the job benefits of flying into a greater variety of sub par airports, loading their passengers bags, emptying the aircraft toilets, hanging around at the airport all day waiting for the boss who expects no limit to their duty day and always being on call to name just a few
There’s simply no comparison to the airlines who offer greater benefits, much higher pay, bigger, more comfortable equipment with proper crew rest facilities, significantly greater choices in predictable monthly schedules with days off that are guaranteed and better vacation and retirement plans
I don’t remember too many ‘bureaucratic types’ at the airline I flew for and there were plenty of unknown challenges and variety on every single trip flying on a route system that spanned the globe
I’ve heard this mindset promoted before from pilots in the business jet community who try to rationalize the job benefits of flying into a greater variety of sub par airports, loading their passengers bags, emptying the aircraft toilets, hanging around at the airport all day waiting for the boss who expects no limit to their duty day and always being on call to name just a few
There’s simply no comparison to the airlines who offer greater benefits, much higher pay, bigger, more comfortable equipment with proper crew rest facilities, significantly greater choices in predictable monthly schedules with days off that are guaranteed and better vacation and retirement plans
I’ve heard this mindset promoted before from pilots in the business jet community who try to rationalize the job benefits of flying into a greater variety of sub par airports, loading their passengers bags, emptying the aircraft toilets, hanging around at the airport all day waiting for the boss who expects no limit to their duty day and always being on call to name just a few
There’s simply no comparison to the airlines who offer greater benefits, much higher pay, bigger, more comfortable equipment with proper crew rest facilities, significantly greater choices in predictable monthly schedules with days off that are guaranteed and better vacation and retirement plans
Each to his own - for sure. But, I can truly say that I find it much more enjoyable to participate and be part of a "proper" biz jet operation, with all the support functions in place, than it is to be flying an airliner around - which is simply too boring for some of us. There is a much larger span from good to bad operations in biz aviation for sure. In the "large segment" private operations we of have very predictable rotations (eg. 16 on / 14 off (as guaranteed as the airlines - almost!)., where you end up spending a couple of weeks in locations where the wealthy (monetarily speaking!) clients (owners) relax it out. Sit it out, eat, drink, explore, sunbath. Most decent clients have a schedule, so yeah you´re on standby, but you also know the habits.
I´ve never cleaned a toilets on an airplane and I´ve spend more days doing airport standby in the airline, than I ever have in Biz Av. I do load the baggage of both the crew and pax.
The "equipment" that I fly (not that I care to much anymore) is so much more technologically advanced and fun - than any of the airliners I´ve ever flown.
The only airline operations that offer better overall CoS are the legacy ones. The likes of Easyjet, Wizz etc. don´t get where we are in large segment of biz av. You´re right we don´t generally have most of "other" benefits, such as insurances, retirement plans etc., this is compensated directly via the salary, which gives you the influence of how you prefer to invest.
When it comes to uncertainties - I don´t really know. Seniority lists (when followed!) only protects you that much. When you´re qualified in the biz av, it´s not that hard to find another position (even if just tempo).