Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Biz Jets, Ag Flying, GA etc.
Reload this Page >

How many AOC operators are prepared for a 'No Deal' Brexit?

Biz Jets, Ag Flying, GA etc. The place for discussion of issues related to corporate, Ag and GA aviation. If you're a professional pilot and don't fly for the airlines then try here.

How many AOC operators are prepared for a 'No Deal' Brexit?

Old 25th Sep 2018, 12:43
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Hinckley
Age: 58
Posts: 51
How many AOC operators are prepared for a 'No Deal' Brexit?

How many AOC operators are prepared for a 'No Deal' Brexit?

UK Government 'Aviation' planning papers yesterday highlighted the following:

'If the UK leaves the EU in March 2019 with no agreement in place, UK and EU licensed airlines would lose the automatic right to operate air services between the UK and the EU without seeking advance permission. This would mean that airlines operating between the UK and the EU would need to seek individual permissions to operate. EU-licensed airlines would lose the ability to operate wholly within the UK (for example from Heathrow to Edinburgh) and UK-licensed airlines would lose the ability to operate intra-EU air services (for example from Milan to Paris).

Flights to and from the EU

If there is ‘no deal’ with the EU, airlines wishing to operate flights between the UK and the EU would have to seek individual permissions to operate from the respective states (be that the UK or an EU country). In this scenario the UK would envisage granting permission to EU airlines to continue to operate. We would expect EU countries to reciprocate in turn. It would not be in the interest of any EU country or the UK to restrict the choice of destinations that could be served, though, if such permissions are not granted, there could be disruption to some flights.

In order to ensure permissions were granted and flights continued, the UK’s preference would be to agree a basic arrangement or understanding on a multilateral basis between the UK and the EU. Alternatively, bilateral arrangements between the UK and an individual EU country could be put in place, specifying the conditions under which air services would be permitted. By definition any such agreement would be reciprocal in nature. The European Commission has previously acknowledged that a ‘bare bones’ agreement on air services would be desirable in the event of the UK leaving with ‘no deal’.

In the scenario where a provisional deal is agreed for air services, airlines will continue to be required to apply for the following associated permissions.

Associated permissions for EU AOC operators

EU-licensed airlines would need two associated permissions in order to operate to the UK:

First, they would require a foreign carrier permit. There is a long established procedure for applying for such permits, and carriers can find out more about applying on the UK Civil Aviation Authority website. This guidance will be updated shortly for operators of EU or EEA registered aircraft.

Second, they would require a UK safety authorisation from the UK Civil Aviation Authority, a “UK Part-TCO (Third Country Operator)”. The CAA will consider each application for UK Part-TCO on a case by case basis, but in principle, an airline that holds a valid European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) Air Operator Certificate will be considered as having met the qualifying requirements to hold such an approval.

The UK would expect this recognition of equivalent safety standards to be reciprocated by the EU in its ‘Part-TCO’ authorisations.

Associated permissions for UK AOC operators

UK-licensed airlines would need two associated permissions in order to operate to the EU.

First, UK airlines will require permission from the national authorities of the states to which they operate (often referred to as a foreign carrier permit). Processes may vary in different EU countries, so airlines should start consulting the national aviation authorities within the relevant EU countries for details of how they grant foreign airlines permission to operate.

Second, airlines from outside the EU require a safety authorisation from the EASA, known as “Part-TCO”. EASA has yet to provide the details for how and when it would process applications from UK airlines in advance of the UK leaving the EU. However, the UK would expect the recognition of equivalent safety standards to be on a reciprocal basis.

So, a foreign carrier permit for each state you intend to charter to post March 2019 plus an EASA Part-TCO

How much paperwork, time and what resources exist to deal with this?
sellbydate is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2018, 12:50
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Bishop's Stortford
Posts: 48
The UK CAA website states:

'Once the UK has left the EU, airlines with UK AOC’s would be considered ‘third country’ operators (TCOs) within the meaning of Article 4(1)(d) of the Basic Regulation (Article 1b(ii) in Basic Regulation (EU) 2018/1139 (“New Basic”)) and other EU legislation on aviation safety.

TCOs require a safety authorisation from EASA in accordance with Articles 9 and 23of the Basic Regulation (Section VIII of the New Basic Regulation) to operate in the EU.

There is an outstanding question as to whether EASA would allow applications for TCO status from airlines within an existing EU Member State before 29th March 2019.

The CAA has not been able to enter direct conversations with EASA about how it intends to ensure continuity of service. Therefore, airlines should as soon as possible contact EASA to understand what actions they can take to seek TCO status and the relevant safety authorisation before the UK formally withdraws.
Avioactive is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2018, 12:54
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chobham
Posts: 105
On security it reads:

In a non-negotiated withdrawal, aircraft arriving into an EU airport from the UK may be subject to an aircraft security search.

Passengers (and their cabin baggage) and hold baggage of an in-bound flight from the UK may be subject to security screening where transferring onto a connecting flight in an EU airport, unless the EU recognises the UK as applying equivalent security controls.

Operators should contact as soon as possible the European Commission as soon as possible to discuss the specific consequences for their operations and potential mitigations.

Great, nothing like a bit of red tape to smooth things along!
fairflyer is offline  
Old 25th Sep 2018, 13:10
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Farnborough
Posts: 66


http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/...tionSafety.pdf
Romaro is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2018, 07:00
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 76
Originally Posted by Avioactive View Post
The UK CAA website states:

'Once the UK has left the EU, airlines with UK AOC’s would be considered ‘third country’ operators (TCOs) within the meaning of Article 4(1)(d) of the Basic Regulation (Article 1b(ii) in Basic Regulation (EU) 2018/1139 (“New Basic”)) and other EU legislation on aviation safety.

TCOs require a safety authorisation from EASA in accordance with Articles 9 and 23of the Basic Regulation (Section VIII of the New Basic Regulation) to operate in the EU.

There is an outstanding question as to whether EASA would allow applications for TCO status from airlines within an existing EU Member State before 29th March 2019.

The CAA has not been able to enter direct conversations with EASA about how it intends to ensure continuity of service. Therefore, airlines should as soon as possible contact EASA to understand what actions they can take to seek TCO status and the relevant safety authorisation before the UK formally withdraws.
It takes 'several months' for some operators to get their outfit inspected as part of the Part-TCO application process - off the EASA site:

'How much in advance should an application for TCO authorisation be submitted before the intended starting date of our EU operations?

TCO.300 (b)(1) requires the application at least 30 days before the intended starting date of operation. Therefore, it is highly recommended that you submit the application well in advance of the intended operation. This will allow for sufficient lead time as the Agency, under ART.200(b), may need to conduct a further assessment. Where EASA decides to invite operators for a meeting or to perform an on-site audit, the TCO authorisation process can take several months, especially when the technical assessment results in findings that have to be closed before EASA can issue the authorisation.

See: https://www.easa.europa.eu/the-agenc...-authorisation

That's for UK operators applying to EASA which might also entail a trip to Cologne. For European operators now wanting to get the same from the UK CAA, who knows how long that will take - how many EASA charter companies will want/need access to the the UK?!
Winniebago is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2018, 08:37
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 76
Originally Posted by Joe le Taxi View Post
Would a UK operator be able to position empty within Europe, to collect passengers bound for the uk?
No, not if the run from continental Europe to the UK was a charter trip with pax
Winniebago is offline  
Old 3rd Oct 2018, 15:47
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 42
As published by EASA yesterday (2nd October)

'....After withdrawal the UK will cease to participate in the activities of EASA and consequently the UK Civil Aviation Authority will no longer need to ensure compliance by UK-based companies with the EU aviation safety legislation....'

https://www.easa.europa.eu/brexit-negotiations

Everybody needs to wake up. Project fear is turning into reality as each week passes.
Cambridge172 is offline  
Old 5th Oct 2018, 10:09
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: in the wild blue yonder
Posts: 130
EASA TCO is step 1.
There is a step 2 as well, and that's likely to be increase in complexity and messing about as each State eventually has their own process to increase the bureaucracy and local fee's.....head's up.

New rules for charter flights to Greece ? International Ops 2018
HyFlyer is offline  
Old 5th Oct 2018, 10:48
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 42
Meanwhile, UK Government think they have some whopping bargaining power on the Open Skies front:

'EU won't be flying across Atlantic' IDS delivers STUNNING threat to EU over plane scrap

IAIN DUNCAN SMITH has delivered a savage dig at the European Union claiming they will not be able to fly across the Atlantic if they do not secure an agreement with the UK.

The Conservative MP and leading Brexit supporter claimed the European Union would want to secure an agreement with the UK over the current Open Skies arrangement so their citizens can continue travelling across the Atlantic.

The former Tory leader told Good Morning Britain: “nobody from Europe is going to be flying across the Atlantic” without an agreement on Open Skies. He said: “On the Open Skies issue, the imperative for the EU is to make sure that they do sign up with the UK for that.
“Because the Civil Aviation Authority, the British, is the third largest in the world. “It dominates all the transatlantic flights. “Nobody from Europe is going to be flying across the Atlantic if they don’t have an Open Skies agreement with the UK.
“The imperative is as much on their side as ours to get these functional things moving and I think they should be able to be doing that.”

Speaking on Pienaar’s Politics on Sunday, he added: “If they don’t, let’s just say for a second, the EU didn’t agree to do Open Skies, that means all the routes across the Atlantic are shut to them. “They can’t fly to New York on the Polar routes, on the Northern routes because we control them. “Did you know that the Civil Aviation Authority, outside of the EU, is the third-largest aviation authority in the world? “It controls about 70 percent of the EU’s flying. The idea that it’s us somehow begging for a flying deal is absurd.”

British airlines can currently offer services to anywhere they want to within the European Union because of the bloc’s common rules for aviation, also known as the European Common Aviation Area arrangements (ECAA). Britain is also a member of the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) which sets the rules of flying safety throughout the EU. A "no deal" Brexit would see the UK leave the ECAA and no longer be under the jurisdiction of the EASA without the guarantee flights could take off or land in Britain.

Michael O’Leary, the CEO of Ryanair, has repeatedly warned flights could be cancelled if there is a Brexit no deal. Last week the Irish Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, warned the UK it might not be able to use Irish airspace in the event of no deal in negotiations.

A spokeswoman for the Prime Minister told the Irish Independent: “It's wrong to claim that Ireland could simply stop the UK from flying over its land as a result of Brexit. "The reason we say that is because overflight rights are not guaranteed by the EU, rather by multilateral treaty which both ourselves and Ireland have signed up to."
Cambridge172 is offline  
Old 5th Oct 2018, 13:24
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Chobham
Posts: 105
Aviation regulator 'rebuffed' over no-deal Brexit plan

UK aviation regulator the CAA sought a joint no-deal transition plan with its EU counterpart but was rebuffed, correspondence seen by the BBC reveals.

The letters show the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) rejected a British call for a plan in July.

With months to go before the UK could drop out of the EU without a deal, the two bodies are yet to begin formal discussions. EASA said technical talks could not pre-empt political agreement on Brexit. In a letter to EASA in June, CAA chief executive Richard Moriarty said a "joint transition plan" was necessary to help assure people of "the on-going integrity of the aviation framework in any future scenario".
It said: "My team is standing by to support these discussions."
In response, EASA executive director Patrick Ky said he understood the request to limit disruption and safety risks.
But he added: "It remains the case that without sufficient clarity on both the outcome of the withdrawal process and the future UK legal framework such discussions would currently be premature."
If the UK leaves the EU without reaching a deal, the EU would not recognise certificates, approvals and licences issued by the CAA.
This could stop new aviation parts made in the UK - like wings constructed by Airbus - being put on EU planes.
British pilots with UK licences flying EU-registered aircraft would need to get second licences from another EU state or transfer their licences there.
The UK wants to participate in EASA after Brexit. Failing that, officials seek a deal where the EU and UK aviation authorities recognise each other's standards.
EASA has recently offered some UK aviation businesses the chance to be approved as "third county" suppliers to the EU, which means they could carry on doing business in the EU.
But not all areas of aviation are covered.
Although there are international agreements, there is no aviation equivalent of the World Trade Organization that would allow flights to continue seamlessly after a no-deal Brexit.
In a statement to BBC Radio 4's Today programme, EASA said Brexit negotiations were ongoing and added: "The outcome of those negotiations cannot be pre-empted, but until more clarity is gained of the terms of UK's withdrawal, discussion about technical details would not be useful since the framework for which we need to prepare is not known.
"Such technical-level discussions cannot pre-empt the overall political agreement, which is the subject of the withdrawal negotiations.
"Once the future framework is clearer, we will be open to engaging also in technical discussions."
The CAA said the UK would recognise safety licences and approvals issued by EASA and it urged EASA to recognise its own after Brexit.
A spokesman said: "We call upon the European Commission to allow EASA to hold discussions with us about the detailed technical arrangements that would apply in a no-deal scenario.
"We are ready to start these talks immediately."
fairflyer is offline  
Old 6th Oct 2018, 10:56
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Sky
Posts: 329
“Nobody from Europe is going to be flying across the Atlantic if they don’t have an Open Skies agreement with the UK.
Poor IDS... Has no clue what the UK signed up to through ICAO and the bilaterals and openskies with individual countries..... Only other country who thinks like this is Saudi with Qatar and they are breaking the ICAO rules too

Why am I not surprised.....
Global_Global is offline  
Old 6th Oct 2018, 13:08
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: World
Posts: 2,337
Then the EU will close Shanwick to the UK aircrafts, and problem solved. Politicians, they have no idea what they are talking about...
dirk85 is offline  
Old 6th Oct 2018, 14:18
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: If this is Tuesday, it must be?
Posts: 606
How are they going to do that, since the UK controls Shanwick?
BizJetJock is online now  
Old 6th Oct 2018, 15:02
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: World
Posts: 2,337
Originally Posted by BizJetJock View Post
How are they going to do that, since the UK controls Shanwick?
I thought that was Irish, my bad. But then again, I guess thay had an agreement in place to control Shanwick, with a hard brexit who knows what will happen.

I am sure it is not in the UK interest to be limited to fly only west to the US, and being denied overflying rights in Europe.
dirk85 is offline  
Old 7th Oct 2018, 14:05
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: If this is Tuesday, it must be?
Posts: 606
Delegation of control for FIRs over the high seas is an ICAO issue, nothing to do with the EU or EASA. However, pithy one-liners aside, if there was a real p1ssing contest it could get tricky since although control is done by the UK from Prestwick all the comms go through RoI at Ballygireen. NAT region closed to everyone would probably result in a US invasion of Europe to knock everyone's heads together...
BizJetJock is online now  
Old 8th Oct 2018, 10:10
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Farnham, Surrey
Posts: 1,288
On a different, but I think related, tack:

If I understand it correctly the EASA position seems to be that in the event of a "no deal" exit all existing certifications and approvals held by UK companies will cease to be recognised.

What about Rolls Royce as a Design Authority? Does that mean that in the event of a no-deal then as of March 30th Rolls Royce will no longer be able to offer DA support to EASA operators, and so they will have to ground their RR-powered fleets due to lack of DAOS support? Or would RR somehow be able to maintain an EASA-acceptable DAOS Accreditation (or indeed would an EASA subpartG organisation be able to contiinue without RR support?).

PDR
PDR1 is offline  
Old 12th Oct 2018, 21:47
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Delta of Venus
Posts: 462
Nobody can prepare for anything until they know what going to happen.
Private jet is offline  
Old 13th Oct 2018, 13:26
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Sky
Posts: 329
On a different, but I think related, tack:

If I understand it correctly the EASA position seems to be that in the event of a "no deal" exit all existing certifications and approvals held by UK companies will cease to be recognised.

What about Rolls Royce as a Design Authority? Does that mean that in the event of a no-deal then as of March 30th Rolls Royce will no longer be able to offer DA support to EASA operators, and so they will have to ground their RR-powered fleets due to lack of DAOS support? Or would RR somehow be able to maintain an EASA-acceptable DAOS Accreditation (or indeed would an EASA subpartG organisation be able to contiinue without RR support?).

PDR
Correct ANY licence that the UK CAA has put a stamp on will be no longer valid... Think airports, spare parts, simulators, technicians, ATC... Anything that the CAA was a delegated authority will not be recognised by EASA anymore as the CAA has ceased to exist as a competent authority from an EASA perspective since they cannot have any oversight over them...

The fun part that all the BREXITers seem to forget all the time is that if after BREXIT and they want to be still part of EASA they will still have to follow ALL the EASA rules, pay for EASA but have no longer any say in the new regulations. And this goes for most industries. So less to say and the same to pay: rule Britannia


.
Global_Global is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.