Biz Jets, Ag Flying, GA etc. The place for discussion of issues related to corporate, Ag and GA aviation. If you're a professional pilot and don't fly for the airlines then try here.

Viability of G3 vs G4

Old 16th Aug 2018, 20:42
  #101 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: San Juan Capistrano
Posts: 42
Originally Posted by His dudeness View Post
You do realize, that Lubitz (that Germanwings-Killer), was evaluated several times by psychologists ? Just sayin.
Well at least he is out of the running for job openings :-)
Catorce14 is offline  
Old 16th Aug 2018, 20:50
  #102 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: San Juan Capistrano
Posts: 42
Originally Posted by Old Boeing Driver View Post
How will you evaluate if he/she can actually fly, and do it safely? Rely on the psychological review?
I actually just got off the phone with the pilot who's flight hours I've posted above. Currently he is flying a Lear 60, but he has flown a 55 to almost all the destinations in the US and Caribbean that I want to go to. I found him to be personable, knowledgeable, and he gave very good advice to me about why a Lear 55 may not be the plane I want. Besides checking references (he is currently on a long term Lear 60 gig), how is one supposed to evaluate a contract pilot?

Are you suggesting that I need to be a pilot in order to hire a pilot?

Are you suggesting I hire a pilot for the sole purpose of procuring me a pilot? What if the pilot I hire to find me a pilot is defective? Should I then hire a pilot to hire a pilot that can then go hire me a contract pilot?

I am being facetious of course but I feel like your question is a bit flippant. If you need brain surgery, you do your research and find a good brain surgeon. You don't go get a degree in brain surgery, if you follow my drift.

I think the whole purpose of hiring a tradesman of any kind be it doctor, pilot, bodyguard, gardener - whatever - is because you can't do it yourself.
Catorce14 is offline  
Old 16th Aug 2018, 23:13
  #103 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: South Alabama
Age: 70
Posts: 321
Good Luck

Originally Posted by Catorce14 View Post
I actually just got off the phone with the pilot who's flight hours I've posted above. Currently he is flying a Lear 60, but he has flown a 55 to almost all the destinations in the US and Caribbean that I want to go to. I found him to be personable, knowledgeable, and he gave very good advice to me about why a Lear 55 may not be the plane I want. Besides checking references (he is currently on a long term Lear 60 gig), how is one supposed to evaluate a contract pilot?

Are you suggesting that I need to be a pilot in order to hire a pilot?

Are you suggesting I hire a pilot for the sole purpose of procuring me a pilot? What if the pilot I hire to find me a pilot is defective? Should I then hire a pilot to hire a pilot that can then go hire me a contract pilot?

I am being facetious of course but I feel like your question is a bit flippant. If you need brain surgery, you do your research and find a good brain surgeon. You don't go get a degree in brain surgery, if you follow my drift.

I think the whole purpose of hiring a tradesman of any kind be it doctor, pilot, bodyguard, gardener - whatever - is because you can't do it yourself.
I wish you good luck and safe travels. You are a great researcher, and know the direction you want to take.

Once you get your operation going, you should post your results here.

Regards.
Old Boeing Driver is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2018, 01:12
  #104 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Ormond Beach
Age: 44
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by Catorce14 View Post
I actually just got off the phone with the pilot who's flight hours I've posted above. Currently he is flying a Lear 60, but he has flown a 55 to almost all the destinations in the US and Caribbean that I want to go to. I found him to be personable, knowledgeable, and he gave very good advice to me about why a Lear 55 may not be the plane I want. Besides checking references (he is currently on a long term Lear 60 gig), how is one supposed to evaluate a contract pilot?

Are you suggesting that I need to be a pilot in order to hire a pilot?

Are you suggesting I hire a pilot for the sole purpose of procuring me a pilot? What if the pilot I hire to find me a pilot is defective? Should I then hire a pilot to hire a pilot that can then go hire me a contract pilot?

I am being facetious of course but I feel like your question is a bit flippant. If you need brain surgery, you do your research and find a good brain surgeon. You don't go get a degree in brain surgery, if you follow my drift.

I think the whole purpose of hiring a tradesman of any kind be it doctor, pilot, bodyguard, gardener - whatever - is because you can't do it yourself.
You bring up some good points, and I applaud your persistence. I suppose, in the end, it's about trust. You'll have to find the pilot(s) with whom you'll feel comfortable, and that's not always based only on credentials. We are very blessed to have plenty of very solid aviators in this country, but which of them will work out for you, only you can tell.

Speaking of Lears, I noticed this airplane:

https://www.controller.com/listings/...0-learjet-60xr

Curious why it's been flown so little (almost less than even you would fly it). I'm by no means a Lear expert, but 800TT for something like that seems awful low.
flyboyike is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2018, 01:52
  #105 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: San Juan Capistrano
Posts: 42
Yeah the research has been mind numbing. My wife is fully topped off hearing about all this. I've spoken to service centers, pilots and brokers and whenever I hear the same thing twice I assume it to be true. Whenever someone recommends a plane to me I ask them what would be their number two plane choice .So now I have a small group of planes and soon I'll do up a spreadsheet of the pros and cons of each.

Then I will talk some more and charter the short list. Not making a hasty decision here I only want to do this once .

Thank you all will keep everyone apprised.
Catorce14 is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2018, 07:28
  #106 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: KSAN
Posts: 39
Originally Posted by Catorce14 View Post
I would be operating out of John Wayne in Orange County, no trips to Aspen planned.

My biggest problem with the G200 is how small it is. We are 5 people plus Dog and very frequent relatives. Also, I am getting the sentiment that airplane owners typically scale for their most frequent trips, not necessarily their longest ones. Although the G200 seems to cost half of what a GIV would on paper as far as operating costs, it cannot complete the entire mission I would ask of it.

I'm also worried about giving my family a bad experience in a plane that appears very small relative to the GIV. My wife especially is used to the pod at the front of a 777 Dreamliner and other first class accommodations. G200, while same width and height, is not the same length inside as you stated, so looks much smaller no matter how capable.

What I still don't understand and what I wish someone would tell me is this:

If I take a GIV for 2.5 million, and I take a G200 for 2.5 million, and I run them both 150 hours, is the only thing that is going to change is operating costs? It seems like the GIV is so much more bang for the buck......and it can do so much more......why would I ever buy anything lesser?

Honest question.
???? Have you even been inside a Lear 55? Everything you stated previously on why you had to have a Gulfstream and a private Jet goes out the window with a Lear 55 especially with 5+ people. (room, range, comfort gone)
And for the record a G200 cabin is very large for a mid size jet. Full galley and Lav. Lear 55...hope you like sitting the entire flight and you can hold it if you got to go!
Additionally for the price I would argue it is the best cabin size you can get for the money and performance while may not be the most ideal will beat a Lear.

I'm telling you, everyone here is telling you.... Charter your experience is going to end up being much much much better.
gbruton is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2018, 08:54
  #107 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: schermoney and left front seat
Age: 53
Posts: 2,336
Originally Posted by Catorce14 View Post
Well at least he is out of the running for job openings :-)
I like black humour....

Anyhow, my employers did fly with me for quite a time (actually 10 years) as charter clients before they offered my a position in their then non existent FD. Been employed 11 years last June and hope to make it to retirement there. Look, piloting is - IMHO - not the real point when dealing with personell that has a license and considerable time. Managing all the s*** around flying is the real hard think to do and where a lot of money can be saved or be lost. Having somebody learn it on the job costs your money. I know a guy in the States who used to work for my former employer on a CL300. Was an aircraft mechanic and pilot. That guy was worth his weight in Gold.

BTW: as you already discovered, if you ask 5 pilots the same question, youŽll get at least 7 different answers. And not all are wrong....
His dudeness is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2018, 16:51
  #108 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: San Juan Capistrano
Posts: 42
Originally Posted by gbruton View Post
???? Have you even been inside a Lear 55? Everything you stated previously on why you had to have a Gulfstream and a private Jet goes out the window with a Lear 55 especially with 5+ people. (room, range, comfort gone)
And for the record a G200 cabin is very large for a mid size jet. Full galley and Lav. Lear 55...hope you like sitting the entire flight and you can hold it if you got to go!
Additionally for the price I would argue it is the best cabin size you can get for the money and performance while may not be the most ideal will beat a Lear.

I'm telling you, everyone here is telling you.... Charter your experience is going to end up being much much much better.
If you are just straight up reading the thread in chronological order, you will come to the conclusion that I am flip flopping, which is not really the case here. The thread represents an evolution in my thought pattern, with each post a tiny slice of what I was thinking *at the time*.

Realize that I long ago came to the conclusion that I could not afford to maintain a GIV, and yes, compared to a GIV, the G200 is small.

Of course now, the G200 would be one of the bigger players.

So let me give you the redux now at this moment in time, and yes, I reserve the right to change my mind:

1. I do not want to finance a plane. No, we did not talk about this, but it is a safety measure on my part. If I pay cash, and wind up buying the wrong plane that perhaps encounters some sort of major unexpected maintenance event, I park the plane and pay for hangar space without fear of having to make a 20K per month payment for the note on the plane (3M airplane loan is about 20K per month, maybe a little more).

2. I now am more or less committed to a US / Canada / Caribbean plane, and I am firmly in the mid-jet mindset.

3. I am looking for an aircraft that is relatively inexpensive to maintain. I have spoken to probably 5 people who have extremely good track records with the Lear 55, many people are reporing 100-150K per year in maintenance (not incl. pilots, fuel)

4. I don't want to spend any more than about 750K cash on the plane (see point 1 above). This rules out a G200, however nice it is.

5. Not interested in chartering or fractional. I have 3 charter quotes sitting on my desk right now for a variety of aircraft to go from SNA to CUN - the average price is $96K for the round trip. I think that is ridiculous, personally.

6. I need the tax writeoff of about a ~750K spend and ~150K per year in expenditure.

Lastly, every plane I am looking at has some sort of flaw, and I am weighing all these flaws in a spreadsheet to which I will assign weighting to shortly. as an example:

Lear 55: Nice cabin, underpowered
Hawker 700: Nice cabin, slow
Astra: Really nice cabin, butt ugly
Lear 60: pretty much perfect, exceeds budget, P&W motors more expensive to maintain

That's just a sampling. As you can see, some features are superficial to the mission, but hey, this isn't the Army, we can have nice looking things :-)
Catorce14 is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2018, 21:48
  #109 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: California
Posts: 279
Of the 3 types within your budget you mentioned in your latest post the Astra, although not sexy, is fastest and has the best range by far. West Coast-Hawaii most days of the year without wet footprint.(you haven't mentioned going to Hawaii but this example is often used as a good-range benchmark). I flew an Astra for 13 years in the 80s and 90s and learned to like quite a lot about it. We would make regular trips from US West Coast to London with 1 stop. 2 stops coming home. Good runway perf too. Downside is the narrow cabin but it does have stand up cabin if you are 6' tall or less. Full lav and external baggage door too. Early builds (non SPx) are available for a bit over $1M. I saw SN 018 (?) for sale the other day for $495K. Must have a story...Maybe avoid that one. It's been a long time for me and I don't know if Gulfstream even supports these old birds any more. They pretty well ditched the whole program once they purchased Galaxy Aerospace.
ksjc is offline  
Old 18th Aug 2018, 09:47
  #110 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Delsey
Posts: 746
Originally Posted by ksjc View Post
Of the 3 types within your budget you mentioned in your latest post the Astra, although not sexy, is fastest and has the best range by far. West Coast-Hawaii most days of the year without wet footprint.(you haven't mentioned going to Hawaii but this example is often used as a good-range benchmark). I flew an Astra for 13 years in the 80s and 90s and learned to like quite a lot about it. We would make regular trips from US West Coast to London with 1 stop. 2 stops coming home. Good runway perf too. Downside is the narrow cabin but it does have stand up cabin if you are 6' tall or less. Full lav and external baggage door too. Early builds (non SPx) are available for a bit over $1M. I saw SN 018 (?) for sale the other day for $495K. Must have a story...Maybe avoid that one. It's been a long time for me and I don't know if Gulfstream even supports these old birds any more. They pretty well ditched the whole program once they purchased Galaxy Aerospace.
i think he is confusing the Astra/G100 with the Galaxy/G200 here.

I agree though that a G100 is far superior to the LR55, and a G200 even better.
500 above is offline  
Old 18th Aug 2018, 14:49
  #111 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: KSAN
Posts: 39
Well how else should we read it? Nothing wrong with switching aircraft as you move through the "evolution" of educating yourself. So now due to operating cost, you can not operate the plane you want at the cost you want. But that then challenges the statement you made clear the role of the plane had to fit that any "evolution" of educating yourself s never going to fix.

You stated nothing smaller then a large cabin will work due to your wife's exceptions/past experiences and amount of people you would have flying with you.

If you first said I would like to find a jet that can carry X people and only cost Y to operate then your position on "education""non flip flopping" would be accepted.
I understand you do not like the idea of the cost of charter. I get it. Why spend that much when you can own something. But wont you just put yourself in a corner when you own something that can not fit everyone nor will it be in the comfort they expect?

"My biggest problem with the G200 is how small it is. We are 5 people plus Dog and very frequent relatives. Also, I am getting the sentiment that airplane owners typically scale for their most frequent trips, not necessarily their longest ones. Although the G200 seems to cost half of what a GIV would on paper as far as operating costs, it cannot complete the entire mission I would ask of it.

I'm also worried about giving my family a bad experience in a plane that appears very small relative to the GIV. My wife especially is used to the pod at the front of a 777 Dreamliner and other first class accommodations. G200, while same width and height, is not the same length inside as you stated, so looks much smaller no matter how capable."
gbruton is offline  
Old 18th Aug 2018, 17:30
  #112 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: San Juan Capistrano
Posts: 42
^The answer to your question is the mission changed......
Catorce14 is offline  
Old 18th Aug 2018, 18:16
  #113 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 195
A question I haven't seen answered yet now that you're talking about operating with contract pilots who will show up to fly ; Who is going to oversee and take care of this aircraft for you?

Keeping up with maintenance events, SBs, ADs, inspection cycles, manual updates, and all the associated paperwork where it needs to be in order for it to be ready and legal to fly is an ongoing job. Are you going use an aircraft management company? Plan to put it on a charter company's certificate? These associations are usually motivated to access some sort of aircraft support system. If you're a private owner/sole entity operator, what sort of support system will you have?

It's all well and good to scrutinize the pilots to see if they meet your standard but most are certainly going to scrutinize your aircraft on the standard of upkeep, safety, and legality. Nobody is going to want to risk their certificates (let alone their butts) for what amounts to an occasional, part-time job.

What assurance would these contract pilots have you're doing all the correct, unseen things while this aircraft is sitting in it's hangar for long periods of time? Will you hire another full-time, aviation professional who knows what they're doing in order to keep things organized and up to date for them to have that assurance?
PukinDog is offline  
Old 18th Aug 2018, 23:17
  #114 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: KSAN
Posts: 39
Originally Posted by Catorce14 View Post
^The answer to your question is the mission changed......
How so?
The mission is still the same. You need to transport your wife and family in comfort that exceeds that of a private suite on a 787 Dreamliner.
All that has changed is the reality of cost to execute the mission.. Or shall we say the "tools" to execute the mission have been limited to not allow the mission to be successful.

Man, this could be one of those questions they might ask you when you try and rank up their Captain.
Can you process good decision making skills and restraint to not force something to happen that knowingly can not be successful based off the tools you have been provided from the start.

Captain, Your mission is to get yourself and 5 of your men across the river. Non know how to swim. You can only go across one time and can not go back.
The boat you need that holds 6 people is gone. All that is available is a 2 person kayak.
What do you you do?
A. Pick your favorite and leave the 4.
B. Pile all 6 onto the kayak and hope the weight does not sink the kayak killing all of you instantaneously.
C. Acknowledge you can not get across with the tool provided. Wait until the ferry shows up to safely pass.
gbruton is offline  
Old 18th Aug 2018, 23:55
  #115 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: San Juan Capistrano
Posts: 42
Originally Posted by PukinDog View Post
A question I haven't seen answered yet now that you're talking about operating with contract pilots who will show up to fly ; Who is going to oversee and take care of this aircraft for you?

Keeping up with maintenance events, SBs, ADs, inspection cycles, manual updates, and all the associated paperwork where it needs to be in order for it to be ready and legal to fly is an ongoing job. Are you going use an aircraft management company? Plan to put it on a charter company's certificate? These associations are usually motivated to access some sort of aircraft support system. If you're a private owner/sole entity operator, what sort of support system will you have?

It's all well and good to scrutinize the pilots to see if they meet your standard but most are certainly going to scrutinize your aircraft on the standard of upkeep, safety, and legality. Nobody is going to want to risk their certificates (let alone their butts) for what amounts to an occasional, part-time job.

What assurance would these contract pilots have you're doing all the correct, unseen things while this aircraft is sitting in it's hangar for long periods of time? Will you hire another full-time, aviation professional who knows what they're doing in order to keep things organized and up to date for them to have that assurance?
Excellent question. Every pilot I have spoken to has touched on this. I was thinking of putting it with a management company, but then just about every owner and pilot I have spoken to said they run the plane with "a guy". Usually this is some sort of freelancer who works at one of the big places but takes care of the plane for the owner and manages all of what you are saying. I can't run the plane without a "plane guy" to take care of it. All my friends who have planes have one.

Haven't dug into this at all except for chatting about it.
Catorce14 is offline  
Old 18th Aug 2018, 23:57
  #116 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: San Juan Capistrano
Posts: 42
Originally Posted by gbruton View Post
How so?
The mission is still the same. You need to transport your wife and family in comfort that exceeds that of a private suite on a 787 Dreamliner.
All that has changed is the reality of cost to execute the mission.. Or shall we say the "tools" to execute the mission have been limited to not allow the mission to be successful.

Man, this could be one of those questions they might ask you when you try and rank up their Captain.
Can you process good decision making skills and restraint to not force something to happen that knowingly can not be successful based off the tools you have been provided from the start.

Captain, Your mission is to get yourself and 5 of your men across the river. Non know how to swim. You can only go across one time and can not go back.
The boat you need that holds 6 people is gone. All that is available is a 2 person kayak.
What do you you do?
A. Pick your favorite and leave the 4.
B. Pile all 6 onto the kayak and hope the weight does not sink the kayak killing all of you instantaneously.
C. Acknowledge you can not get across with the tool provided. Wait until the ferry shows up to safely pass.
You will note that the European component of the mission has been scrubbed. Therefore, the airframe required to do the CONUS only job has been reduced in size accordingly. Whether the cabin of a Lear 55 exceeds the pods in a dreamliner is perhaps debatable, what is not debatable is that I don't have to see people, and for that, I will be grateful.
Catorce14 is offline  
Old 19th Aug 2018, 17:22
  #117 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Sky
Posts: 329
I was thinking of putting it with a management company, but then just about every owner and pilot I have spoken to said they run the plane with "a guy".
NO, NO, NO that is the wrong order.... ONLY go for "a guy" if you are experienced (which you are not) and you have dealt with the guy in either that management environment OR he looks after 3 or 4 of your mates their aircraft and they are all very happy about him....


My 10 cents: Love your enthusiasm but you still are not a step further... Go to a management/charter operator near you and charter the [email protected] out of them for at least a yearand see if they are as good as you hoped. Invest a year in understanding different aircraft and real cost.. Then consider buying your own and especially an old maintenance burning aircraft like a G3
Global_Global is offline  
Old 18th Sep 2018, 20:53
  #118 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: unsteady
Posts: 347
Originally Posted by His dudeness View Post
And your NetJets employee number is ?
You tell me! Used to work for a large m/x company for a couple of years. Yes, NJ was one of the customers but so were loads of other large and small operators with various business models as well as corporate and private owners. I saw the down times, delayed flights as well as the eye-watering bills they had to pick up. Need a loaner while your engine is at the shop for weeks and weeks? Have fun, the costs are obscene. Mandated SB's and upgrades can get very interesting too. For privately owned machines most findings came from the a/c not flying enough. Corrosion, erosion, seized bushings, dried out seals, cracked tires, etc. etc, etc. You can't pull an aircraft out of the hangar once a month and expect everything to work perfectly. Buying a freshly painted mid-size bizjet from the 80s for one or two m$ might seem like a great deal to an outsider. But paying for keeping it airworthy is no fun. Embrace for impact during your first m/x event, especially if you want to get it done properly. There are good reasons why large operators sell their planes after the extended warranty runs out.
Even if I had all the money I'd still prefer charter or fractional ownership at fixed cost and availability, hands down. Probably much nicer to arrive at the GAT in one of their 2yo planes than sitting next to the peasants in first class on an airline because your personal 30yo aircraft is AOG somewhere.
Just like with boats, the best two days of aircraft ownership are the one where you buy it and the one where you sell it.
whoknows idont is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.