Expired EASA ATPL Theory - Career Advice

[phillaw15]

Hi Everyone,

I am looking to see if i can get some advice from the Business Jet community regarding how i should proceed with my licence.

I am a UK citizen and originally gained a JAR CPL MEIR with ATPL theory completed at Bristol GS. My first commercial job was some survey flying in the UK and Europe but this was mainly VFR and i only used IFR for transiting to destination points, i was then offered a job flying single and multi engine pistons in Australia only to return to the UK December last year.

On converting my licence back to a now UK EASA one i was told that as i hadn't renewed a IR in the last 7 years (this is correct as i had been flying VFR in Australia and forgot about the rule) i had two options, redo all 14 ATPL exams plus the complete EASA MEIR course or complete 5 ATPL IR exams plus the complete EAS MEIR course.

Can anyone offer advice on what i should do, all 14 exams VS 5 exams with restrictions on being unable to obtain a ATPL licence or command multicrew ops. I am 32 now and have no intention of flying for Airlines, my passion has always and will always be GA and business flying.

Would i be employable in a single pilot business jet or even multicrew business jet if working as an FO if i just renewed the IR theory which would leave me with a EASA CPL MEIR or would it be best to complete the whole ATPL course again?

Your thoughts and advice would be greatly appreciated!

Many thanks

Phil

[rudestuff]

In the UK it’s actually 8 years (they count it from expiry of your last IR - and it doesn’t need to be an EASA IR. So an IR on a foreign license will do.)
As far as ATPLs go - you’ll need them to get a first multi pilot type rating.
You will not have to do a full MEIR course, just training as required.

[Marlon Brando]

Originally Posted by rudestuff

As far as ATPLs go - you’ll need them to get a first multi pilot type rating.

You sure about that ?

CPL ME IR + MCC is not enough ?

I think it is

[Alex Whittingham]

AFAIK rudestuff is correct, its an ICAO requirement to have ATPL theory credits to fly multi-crew over 5700kg that first the UK, then the JAA and EASA have adopted. Not the case in all jurisdictions, maybe not in SA for instance.

[phillaw15]

Thank you for the quick responses gents.

The mention from rudestuff regarding 8 years if this is correct as i thought it was 7 then i should still be allowed to renew before having to complete the ATPL theory again as my IR expired 22/11/2010 or have i misunderstood?

[Hodin]

Originally Posted by Alex Whittingham

AFAIK rudestuff is correct, its an ICAO requirement to have ATPL theory credits to fly multi-crew over 5700kg that first the UK, then the JAA and EASA have adopted. Not the case in all jurisdictions, maybe not in SA for instance.

Just to be sure, by "to fly multi-crew" you mean CS-25 aircraft.
You should still be able to fly in multi-crew environment on aircraft that are CS-23 with CPL+MCC (no ATPL theory), IIRC.

Correct me if I am wrong.

[rudestuff]

FCL.720.A
d) Multi-pilot aeroplanes. An applicant for the first type rating course for a multi-pilot aeroplane shall be a student pilot currently undergoing training on an MPL training course or comply with the following requirements:
(1) have at least 70 hours of flight experience as PIC on aeroplanes;
(2) hold a multi-engine IR(A);
(3) have passed the ATPL(A) theoretical knowledge examinations in accordance with this Part; and
(4) except when the type rating course is combined with an MCC course:
(i) hold a certificate of satisfactory completion of an MCC course in aeroplanes; or
(ii) hold a certificate cate of satisfactory completion of MCC in helicopters and have more than 100 hours of flight experience as a pilot on multi-pilot helicopters; or
(iii) have at least 500 hours as a pilot on multi-pilot helicopters; or
(iv) have at least 500 hours as a pilot in multi-pilot operations on single-pilot multi-engine aeroplanes, in commercial air transport in accordance with the applicable air operations requirements.

I’m very familiar with this one - I did my 757 type rating with 71 hours PIC!

[phillaw15]

Originally Posted by rudestuff

In the UK it’s actually 8 years (they count it from expiry of your last IR - and it doesn’t need to be an EASA IR. So an IR on a foreign license will do.)
As far as ATPLs go - you’ll need them to get a first multi pilot type rating.
You will not have to do a full MEIR course, just training as required.

Just to check I haven't been given incorrect advice from the UK CAA, if it could be 8 years as you mentioned and my rating expired 22/11/2010 does this mean that I could potentially have till November this year as the deadline or have I misunderstood?

If I can avoid having to redo any paper exams would be a bonus, I appreciate that flight training will have to be reviewed and it would be good to get a refresh. It's also good to know that if I can find a good ATO they hopefully won't insist on me doing the complete course again.

[phillaw15]

Had a response from the UK CAA Exam Technical team who advised that i have passed the 7 year time frame so they will credit me with VFR Comms, i need to therefore complete the 13 exams to reinstate my ATPL theory.

Linking back to my original debate, do the experienced guys/girls out there think that i will have limited opportunities in the corporate sector if i opt to do the IR only exams which will leave me with the EASA CPL MEIR and not the full ATPL again?

Advice is greatly appreciated as i want to make the right choice and get this done asap if there is no other way around having to sit the paper exams again.

Phil

[DCTunltd]

I would recommend to pass all 13 subjects. Without ATPL theory you won't be allowed for TR on heavier bizjet with mcc. Even for TR on smaller jet, like CJ, you'll need HPA certificate which is included in ATPL.

[CL300]

Take the exams, you have done it once and not a long time ago, a bit of money, and you have 33 years ahead... It is worth the investment

[rudestuff]

If you want an ATPL at some point, do the exams.

If you only want your IR, then YES, there is a way to get it back without taking the exams again. Gasp!

[phillaw15]

Thank you for the responses and advice everyone. I have decided that i will redo the 13 ATPL exams and not limit myself moving forward.

I just hope i can find a good ATO that wont insist on the complete IR course again, all i have contacted so far answer with past 7 years default full course required!

Thanks everyone.

[rudestuff]

Ok, I’ll say it again. You do not need to take any exams, and you do not need to do a full IR course.

[phillaw15]

Originally Posted by rudestuff

Ok, I’ll say it again. You do not need to take any exams, and you do not need to do a full IR course.

I understand that i don't have to do a full IR course its just the ATO's making there own interpretation of the EASA guidelines to earn more revenue. What i don't understand is your statement that i do not need to take any exams, how is this possible if i want to eventually take command of a Jet that's over the single pilot MTOW and require an ATPL. Could you please advise what you mean by your statement above as it would be appreciated.

[pipertommy]

How did this end regarding the not having to take the ground exams statement?

[Propellerpilot]

Why don't you opt for a distance learning course ?? You can study in your own pace and do 2 weeks classroom at the ATO to be admitted to the exam.

[Aware]

Oh yes at your age definitely do the a ATPLs again, I did that but then left aviation a few years ago to start a company, in financial services which requires loads of exams , still doing that but back now commercial instructing and going to get an IR but at my age 55 I’m just doing the CBIR ones , if I need HPA I will do that but probably never will need it. I’m also going into ATPL ground instruction with the commercial school as I’ve taken so many exams ! Second time round is way easier.

32 very young.

Ive enjoyed my time in aviation but the expiry of exams has always been a pain tbh.

Maybe getting old and synical but why do you get credit for MET and HPL if you hold a CPL and no other credit ! For the IR.

Im an IRI on the strength of my IR/r and teach SEP and CPL but would just like to move onto IR instructing, how I will get 30 hrs in a twin is another matter so may just do a SE IR.

Why do I keep going with it all I’m not sure but at last instructors are getting paid a reasonable income. And we have some FIs in our intergrated school who are 70 !

[rudestuff]

Originally Posted by pipertommy

How did this end regarding the not having to take the ground exams statement?

Sorry for the delay. If you want to avoid taking any more exams, get an FAA or other ICAO IR, log 50 hours as PIC under IFR, then convert to a EASA via CBIR. See below:

Applicants for the competency-based modular IR(A) holding a Part-FCL PPL or CPL and a valid IR(A) issued in compliance with the requirements of Annex 1 to the Chicago Convention by a third country may be credited in full towards the training course mentioned in paragraph 4. In order to be issued the IR(A), the applicant shall:
(a) successfully complete the skill test for the IR(A) in accordance with Appendix 7;
(b) demonstrate to the examiner during the skill test that he/she has acquired an adequate level of theoretical knowledge of air law, meteorology and flight planning and performance (IR); and
(c) have a minimum experience of at least 50 hours of flight time under IFR as PIC on aeroplanes.

Bingo. EASA IR - no exams required. If you have expired ATPL exams, then depending on how you interpret the following...

The completion of the airline transport pilot licence (ATPL) theoretical knowledge examinations will remain valid for the issue of an ATPL for a period of 7 years FROM the last validity date of:
(i) an IR entered in the licence;

...you could argue that your ATPLs are now valid again (the argument being that the only finite limits - 36 months for CPL and IR - are based on what you USE them for, not the validity of the exams themselves. Case in point, they are considered to be valid indefinitely if used to prove CPL knowledge for the issuance of a Flight Instructor rating.)

Either way, you now qualify for an airline job by virtue of:

(d) Multi-pilot aeroplanes. An applicant for the first type rating course for a multi-pilot aeroplane shall be a student pilot currently undergoing training on an MPL training course or comply with the following requirements:
(1) have at least 70 hours of flight experience as PIC on aeroplanes;
(2) hold a multi-engine IR(A);
(3) have PASSED the ATPL(A) theoretical knowledge examinations in accordance with this Part; (**No time limit mentioned**)

So worst case scenario, you get an FO job and retake the exams later at your convenience, best case scenario you don’t need to retake them. Since taking an ATPL skills test requires that you already have the Type Rating and MP-IR anyway and is almost always done in an airline environment, I’m not even sure if the Authority is likely to, or even has the means to check the whole 7 year thing anyway.

So 6 months off work to study and take exams, or a month in Florida doing an IR and some more hour building?

[ersa]

Rudestuff,

You are missing the point ,

The ATPL theory exams did expire , and so he will be required to complete the 13 exams again, there is no way around .

The IR mentioned in the regs , talks about IR entered not on a ICAO licence , but EASA Licence ,