Discontinued Approach
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Discontinued Approach
Hi
Can anyone give any advice on how to do an discontinued approach in the Global 5000/6000 Vision.
My example is say your coming down the ILS (loc and glide slope captured). Say go around altitude is 2000ft and you have just passed say 3000ft and told to fly published go around procedure.
My question is how do you manage the automatics most efficiently?
Thanks
Dj
Can anyone give any advice on how to do an discontinued approach in the Global 5000/6000 Vision.
My example is say your coming down the ILS (loc and glide slope captured). Say go around altitude is 2000ft and you have just passed say 3000ft and told to fly published go around procedure.
My question is how do you manage the automatics most efficiently?
Thanks
Dj
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Request Flaps 6, then select Missed Approach on the FMS, FD from green needle to magenta if required - speed bug will go up (to 180 or whatever speed is programmed for that setting) and cause the AT to add smooth thrust without spilling the passengers coffee... then press FLC or select an appropriat VS to level off at your selected missed approach altititude.
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Hi
Sorry if I missed something here. Are you suggesting hit the go around button as in my view this will give you the fms speed and and also give you the lateral guidance. However it will also pitch up and I need to descend down to 2000ft in my example.
Thanks
Steve
Sorry if I missed something here. Are you suggesting hit the go around button as in my view this will give you the fms speed and and also give you the lateral guidance. However it will also pitch up and I need to descend down to 2000ft in my example.
Thanks
Steve
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Quick thought
Sequence of your choice:
- confirm altitude to maintain
- FLAPS / speed / vertical mode as required
- FMS NAV
- To activate the missed approach click on "SEQ INHB " then "AUTO" at the bottom left of your ROUTE page.
- if your initial altitude is lower than 1000 AGL (LFPB case) keep the gear down to avoid some unnecessary noise.
- confirm altitude to maintain
- FLAPS / speed / vertical mode as required
- FMS NAV
- To activate the missed approach click on "SEQ INHB " then "AUTO" at the bottom left of your ROUTE page.
- if your initial altitude is lower than 1000 AGL (LFPB case) keep the gear down to avoid some unnecessary noise.
Last edited by FLEXJET; 28th Nov 2017 at 20:03.
Why do you need to descend to 2,000’? If ATC directed the miss, they should assign an altitude, which likely be 3,000’ or higher. This is a time to hand fly and sort out the automatics later. If you need to go to 2,000, select NAV and V/S to continue down 2,000, then do as FLEX JET says. You don’t want to use GA, as you’ll sequence the FMS, but create other problems.
GF
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Where in my post did I suggest to push TO/GA?? Is my explanation so difficult to read?
The point was NOT to push the TO/GA button for exactly the reason you mention in your response (but to set Flaps 6). As suggested by Flexjet you still need to make sure your FMS is sequenced correctly and you have selected the correct FD modes after initating in order to rely on the automation to do the job.
The point was NOT to push the TO/GA button for exactly the reason you mention in your response (but to set Flaps 6). As suggested by Flexjet you still need to make sure your FMS is sequenced correctly and you have selected the correct FD modes after initating in order to rely on the automation to do the job.
This is an ideal case for disconnecting the automation and flying the plane while getting all the FD stuff sorted out. Keep the nose pointed straight ahead and, if necessary, descending at a 500-700 fpm toward 2,000’.
This is an usual evolution and trying to make the F/D AP and FMS entries in the right sequence and working is tricky and so infrequently done that it likely will be mess.
GF
This is an usual evolution and trying to make the F/D AP and FMS entries in the right sequence and working is tricky and so infrequently done that it likely will be mess.
GF
Keep the nose pointed straight ahead and, if necessary, descending at a 500-700 fpm toward 2,000’.
Thanks.
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Such a scenario is probably more likely to occur in a simulator, but why not think about it and have a mental scenario in place?
I appreaciate the opportunity to discuss this, thanks DJ
I appreaciate the opportunity to discuss this, thanks DJ
I can’t imagine why you or ATC would require one to continue the descent, but that was a given here. Yes, a sim scenario, for sure. It’s tricky and the usual response is to toggle the GA button which will lead to mass confusion here.
The keys are:
Cycle the FMS to the MAP, select FMS as NAV source, which will be missed as the GA mode does it automatically.
Select NAV and VS, once out of APPR to make the descent and level off at 2,000’ active.
I can see several ways to mess this up, GA being the first, being ready to hand fly with raw data will be the test.
GF
The keys are:
Cycle the FMS to the MAP, select FMS as NAV source, which will be missed as the GA mode does it automatically.
Select NAV and VS, once out of APPR to make the descent and level off at 2,000’ active.
I can see several ways to mess this up, GA being the first, being ready to hand fly with raw data will be the test.
GF
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There are few places where a decent can be required during a missed approach.
I don’t have the plate at hand nor have been there recently but Le Bourget comes to mind. It says ( or used to ), climb to 900' then after x miles, turn right, then climb to 1200 feet etc...
However if you go missed at say 4 miles, then it means you must descend.
This is the published procedure so nothing to do with ATC requesting anything.
I also doubt that if you go missed at 1200’, you should or have the time to query your understanding of the published instructions.
I have seen ( but not had to execute ), similar potential descent requirements for missed approach ( usually required due to dense traffic in missed approach path ).
As this is unusual, this better be briefed properly.
I don’t have the plate at hand nor have been there recently but Le Bourget comes to mind. It says ( or used to ), climb to 900' then after x miles, turn right, then climb to 1200 feet etc...
However if you go missed at say 4 miles, then it means you must descend.
This is the published procedure so nothing to do with ATC requesting anything.
I also doubt that if you go missed at 1200’, you should or have the time to query your understanding of the published instructions.
I have seen ( but not had to execute ), similar potential descent requirements for missed approach ( usually required due to dense traffic in missed approach path ).
As this is unusual, this better be briefed properly.
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Usually in LFPB, if you have to discontinue the approach at 4 miles you have radar vectors.
I know where you are coming from ;-) But in this case you will have an heading and an altitude.
I know where you are coming from ;-) But in this case you will have an heading and an altitude.
GF
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This should be briefed in my opinion. The day it happens to you, you may not be in the cozy environment of LBG or the ATCO May be dealing with an emergency of some kind that would prevent him to concentrate on a published procedure a pilot has not thought out properly.
The world doesn’t revolve around Le Bourget
...Sydney, Australia.. When on a simultaneous approach on ( can’t remember the runway ), the Air Traffic Controller will give you a break out instruction that will have you to descend in many cases.
No failure, nothing but routine instructions in that case so you better be prepared as there is a reason why the controller will ask you to descend.
Last edited by PPRuNeUser0215; 29th Nov 2017 at 20:29.
Some good examples and food for thought - thanks.
Just hit VS. The Alt Sel should already be on 2000ft for the Missed; the aircraft will maintain its current RoD before levelling at 2000ft.
Laterally, the Loc will stay active. You can then change the lateral mode as you pass the MAP.
Configuration wise, you can get the gear up even though you're still descending. A change of Flap will command a corresponding change in FMS speed.
Yes, you could take the AP out if you want, but not difficult to 'manage' the automation to keep it smooth.
We use a similar technique to level using the automation when circling.
Laterally, the Loc will stay active. You can then change the lateral mode as you pass the MAP.
Configuration wise, you can get the gear up even though you're still descending. A change of Flap will command a corresponding change in FMS speed.
Yes, you could take the AP out if you want, but not difficult to 'manage' the automation to keep it smooth.
We use a similar technique to level using the automation when circling.
H Peacock,
I like your plan—NAV to continue tracking the LOC; VS will hold the descent rate to the hopefully preset 2,000’ missed approach altitude. At 3,000’, you’ll have about 3 miles to sort out the details before leveling off and 6-7 more miles to the MAP.
AMEX Yes, PRM approaches would be a good example of descending on a discontinued approach. Business jets (a Global here) do them about once in never! BTW, my last “surprise” ATC radar outage occurred when Richard Nixon was President, Vietnam was still going on and I was carrying cancelled checks TEB to HFD. A lot of mass confusion as NY Radar tried to seoarate a coup,e dozen planes all on a clearance between the NY airport that was “TEB via radar vectors, climb to 2,000’”. Mostly, VMC, I cancelled and went direct. It can happen, good to remember, but pretty rare.
GF
I like your plan—NAV to continue tracking the LOC; VS will hold the descent rate to the hopefully preset 2,000’ missed approach altitude. At 3,000’, you’ll have about 3 miles to sort out the details before leveling off and 6-7 more miles to the MAP.
AMEX Yes, PRM approaches would be a good example of descending on a discontinued approach. Business jets (a Global here) do them about once in never! BTW, my last “surprise” ATC radar outage occurred when Richard Nixon was President, Vietnam was still going on and I was carrying cancelled checks TEB to HFD. A lot of mass confusion as NY Radar tried to seoarate a coup,e dozen planes all on a clearance between the NY airport that was “TEB via radar vectors, climb to 2,000’”. Mostly, VMC, I cancelled and went direct. It can happen, good to remember, but pretty rare.
GF
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Hi Guys
Thanks for all you inputs regarding this!
Whether or not this example would happen in real life, who knows.
But you can bet your bottom dollar it will happen in less then ideal conditions and as such don't want to be making it up as you go along.
If coming down the glide , if we hit the NAV button , will will have LOC green and FPA 3 degrees - so no reason to go vertical speed and we will level off at 2000ft, just one less button to hit.
Flexijet - states hit seq inhb then auto. If you do the this, is this is what actually activates the missed approach. So now if we change the source to fms , hit Nav again we are back in magenta?
Galaxy Flyer - what do you mean by cycle the fms to map?
H Peacock - we get to the MAP, is it just change source to fms then hit nav?
Sorry about additional questions , I have read through the manual and can't get any guidance with regards to activating the go around without hitting toga buttons and want to hear people's ideas.
Cheers
Dj
Thanks for all you inputs regarding this!
Whether or not this example would happen in real life, who knows.
But you can bet your bottom dollar it will happen in less then ideal conditions and as such don't want to be making it up as you go along.
If coming down the glide , if we hit the NAV button , will will have LOC green and FPA 3 degrees - so no reason to go vertical speed and we will level off at 2000ft, just one less button to hit.
Flexijet - states hit seq inhb then auto. If you do the this, is this is what actually activates the missed approach. So now if we change the source to fms , hit Nav again we are back in magenta?
Galaxy Flyer - what do you mean by cycle the fms to map?
H Peacock - we get to the MAP, is it just change source to fms then hit nav?
Sorry about additional questions , I have read through the manual and can't get any guidance with regards to activating the go around without hitting toga buttons and want to hear people's ideas.
Cheers
Dj
Missed Approach Procedure, get the FMS past the runway or MAPoint. If you hit NAV, it will just follow the lateral NAV source selected—LOC unless you manually toggle to FMS. Only with GA button will it automatically change source from LOC to FMS. I just remembered, there is an FMS track to the MAP, as you intercept final from FMS. If you selected FMS source, then NAV, you get guidance right thru the procedure w/o cycling the FMS manually. I retired off the Global earlier this year, things are already fading.
There’s three ways to do most everything in Collins, so different ideas prevail.
GF
There’s three ways to do most everything in Collins, so different ideas prevail.
GF