Citation missing after departure from Burke Lakefront in Cleveland
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Another thought is ice, even though he wasn't airborne for very long. I thought I saw a post earlier showing the surface temp at departure was +1 and the dewpoint was -2 with mist.
I would think he should have been taxing with the engine anti-ice on and that he would turn on the wing anti-ice just after gear retraction. He was climbing through cold moist air over the lake and the temp at 3,000 AGL should have been about -5. Sometimes ice can accrete rapidly in cloud layers. If he forgot the anti-ice, ice on an intake could have damaged an engine or, more likely, ice on the leading edges could have increased his stall speed in the climbing turn.
I would think he should have been taxing with the engine anti-ice on and that he would turn on the wing anti-ice just after gear retraction. He was climbing through cold moist air over the lake and the temp at 3,000 AGL should have been about -5. Sometimes ice can accrete rapidly in cloud layers. If he forgot the anti-ice, ice on an intake could have damaged an engine or, more likely, ice on the leading edges could have increased his stall speed in the climbing turn.
Last edited by Murexway; 1st Jan 2017 at 13:25.
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Isn't the Citation series in general really intended for dual pilot use?
First of all, theres a few "Citation" Serieses...the original ones was called the 500 Series. That was the 500/501 (Citation 500/I/ISP), then 550/551 (Citation II/IISP/Bravo) - the stands for the "SP" Models - SP meant Single Pilot. The first evolution was then the S550 (S2) and the 560 (V/Encore/Encore +). For these there still is a single pilot waiver available. Requires training and certain experience (but thats an american thing, as a EASA child Ißm not too familiar with that.)
The 525 series (and the Jet here was a 525C, marketed as CJ4) was the successor of the original series, with different wings, T Tails, engines and of course avionics. it consists of the CJ, CJ1, CJ1+, M2, (C525) the CJ2, CJ2+,(C525A) CJ3 and CJ3 +(C525B) and the CJ4 (C525C). The CJ 4 stands out a little bit, cause its the best performing of the series and the first to have a different wing, basically its a downscaled version of the Sovereign wing (C680). They are all one rating but required differences courses (again: in EASA Land)
In commercial use you would need to fly these with 2 pilots (in EASA land ALL Jets need to be flown with 2 pilots IF commercial). I have flown a lot of single hand on KingAirs and I have about 2000 hrs in a all CJs but the M2, 3+ and 4.
These airplanes are very easy to fly and forgiving. However, the performance especially of the 3 & 4 means that it takes a lot of experience to stay ahead of your airplane IF something goes wrong.
I agree with GF and I think, we are teached to overuse the A/Ps a tad. While I would always try to use as much A/P as possible in a REAL situation, I´d certainly would prefer more training without it. But then, we don´t really know how and how much the pilot in question was trained.
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Search postponed because of bad weather: Bad weather prevents search of Lake Erie for plane carrying six people - The Globe and Mail
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Looks like some debris may washing up. The location is about 4 miles east of Burke.
Police investigate possible bag from missing plane | WKYC.com
Police investigate possible bag from missing plane | WKYC.com
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If the pilot does not have the skills to hand fly the plane, no autopilot will make up for it. IOW, if you can't fly it, don't take it airborne. The A/P is an aid, not a substitute.
This happens to aircrew everywhere. 100 or 10,000 hours, people don't seem to get it.
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As a long time FI I have witnessed people getting the own airplane virus.
Bothered by dirty rental planes with small technical issues, non-availability, they start with a search for a C172 or the likes. And ask me for advice.
I tell them the spectrum is between a Piper Cub and a private B747-400, all with their pro and cons. What the bigger and faster one brings, You loose from a simpler one.
After discovering an own plane costs a lot of money and brings worries, eats up precious time, most stop at this level.
But for some, due to the availability of resources (enough money...), it keeps on going and after the prop twin or SE Turbine they end up with twin jets.
For some that route is quite fast, faster than one would consider as smart. (no so long a go one P51 owner crashed fatally with his plane, it turned out he started flying less than one year before...).
I like to state that almost all people I know that arrive to the point that they can afford an expensive jet, are hard working people. If that hard work brings also a good financial state, it brings also the worries and time needed for a fleet of cars, a mansion and one or more weekend houses. Apart from the familiy life, all eat up time.
Getting from nil to the level of a SP flown jet will cost a huge amount of time and resources, and it never stops.
Most business plane owners have discovered that flying a complex jets does not mix with a business meeting and hire at least an experienced safety pilot, or better, a professional crew to at least do the dirty work before the flight.
Pure private pilots that cannot subtract crew cost from their private tax income, tend to bypass this. What is more rewarding if You as the head of the family can offer the luxury of flying them almost anywhere, anytime.
To be honest, my thoughts are with that family and the pilot. He wished and did the best for his family, but it turned into a dramatic outcome.
On the other hand, with 18000 safe airline hours, well trained with expert other crew members: flying single pilot in a fast twin jet with low type hours, in a dark night with all kinds of weather phenomena, is not even LOW on my bucket list, I would pass that one on.
Bothered by dirty rental planes with small technical issues, non-availability, they start with a search for a C172 or the likes. And ask me for advice.
I tell them the spectrum is between a Piper Cub and a private B747-400, all with their pro and cons. What the bigger and faster one brings, You loose from a simpler one.
After discovering an own plane costs a lot of money and brings worries, eats up precious time, most stop at this level.
But for some, due to the availability of resources (enough money...), it keeps on going and after the prop twin or SE Turbine they end up with twin jets.
For some that route is quite fast, faster than one would consider as smart. (no so long a go one P51 owner crashed fatally with his plane, it turned out he started flying less than one year before...).
I like to state that almost all people I know that arrive to the point that they can afford an expensive jet, are hard working people. If that hard work brings also a good financial state, it brings also the worries and time needed for a fleet of cars, a mansion and one or more weekend houses. Apart from the familiy life, all eat up time.
Getting from nil to the level of a SP flown jet will cost a huge amount of time and resources, and it never stops.
Most business plane owners have discovered that flying a complex jets does not mix with a business meeting and hire at least an experienced safety pilot, or better, a professional crew to at least do the dirty work before the flight.
Pure private pilots that cannot subtract crew cost from their private tax income, tend to bypass this. What is more rewarding if You as the head of the family can offer the luxury of flying them almost anywhere, anytime.
To be honest, my thoughts are with that family and the pilot. He wished and did the best for his family, but it turned into a dramatic outcome.
On the other hand, with 18000 safe airline hours, well trained with expert other crew members: flying single pilot in a fast twin jet with low type hours, in a dark night with all kinds of weather phenomena, is not even LOW on my bucket list, I would pass that one on.
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The bag that was found along the shoreline was confirmed to have been on the Citation. Additionally, more debris has washed ashore, believed to be from the aircraft. The water is still to rough to do the normal search and recovery. Lake Erie is the shallowest of the Great Lakes and it doesn't take much wind to stir it up.
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His dudeness:
Nonetheless, if a single pilot is "over relying" on the auto-pilot, he/she had better well know all the modes very well, especially for engagement just after takeoff. Otherwise, the autopilot can fly into the water just as easily as a messed up job of hand flying. Asiana reminded us of that at KSFO.
These airplanes are very easy to fly and forgiving. However, the performance especially of the 3 & 4 means that it takes a lot of experience to stay ahead of your airplane IF something goes wrong.
I agree with GF and I think, we are teached to overuse the A/Ps a tad. While I would always try to use as much A/P as possible in a REAL situation, I´d certainly would prefer more training without it. But then, we don´t really know how and how much the pilot in question was trained.
I agree with GF and I think, we are teached to overuse the A/Ps a tad. While I would always try to use as much A/P as possible in a REAL situation, I´d certainly would prefer more training without it. But then, we don´t really know how and how much the pilot in question was trained.
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Due to high winds and waves on Lake Erie, no recovery operations occurred today. The shoreline was searched for debris. So far, over 100 pieces have been recovered. The main body of the Citation has not been located as of yet. Maybe tomorrow will bring better weather conditions.
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This is a view using S.V. on the departure end of 24R. Great info for the "pro."
I would find S.V. invaluable. But, it needs to be used properly.
Disclaimer: I don't believe the accident airplane had S.V.
I would find S.V. invaluable. But, it needs to be used properly.
Disclaimer: I don't believe the accident airplane had S.V.
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Nonetheless, if a single pilot is "over relying" on the auto-pilot, he/she had better well know all the modes very well, especially for engagement just after takeoff. Otherwise, the autopilot can fly into the water just as easily as a messed up job of hand flying.
However, the performance especially of the 3 & 4 means that it takes a lot of experience to stay ahead of your airplane IF something goes wrong.
Salute!
Some very astute posts above concerning knowledge of each A/P mode and when to use as an aid and when not to. So...
Lost a friend in the Viper who agreed with me about using the A/P to reduce workload when there was a change in plans and you needed to consult maps, change radios and IFF codes and such. Very important for single seaters. Unfortunately, he and many of us did not fully understand the "altitude" hold function of the Viper A/P. He was heavy just after takeoff and down low for entry to the low altidue nav course, then the flight aborted. Turning back over the Salt Lake he apparently engaged "altitude hold" and "heading select" to head back south. I was crossing the lake a few minutes prior and the surface was like a mirror and ceiling was maybe 2,000 - 3,000 feet AGL with scattered now showers. The snow was coming out of clouds and looking lower it was coming up from the reflected clouds. Definitely IMC. So his jet got slow and the AoA limiter stopped holding altitude and he descended quite gently at the limiter until impact, in the process of changing IFF ( we had a solid state recorder for several parameters, so hard to lie to the investigation board).
Lesson learned for all of us back then. And still valid today.
Some very astute posts above concerning knowledge of each A/P mode and when to use as an aid and when not to. So...
Lost a friend in the Viper who agreed with me about using the A/P to reduce workload when there was a change in plans and you needed to consult maps, change radios and IFF codes and such. Very important for single seaters. Unfortunately, he and many of us did not fully understand the "altitude" hold function of the Viper A/P. He was heavy just after takeoff and down low for entry to the low altidue nav course, then the flight aborted. Turning back over the Salt Lake he apparently engaged "altitude hold" and "heading select" to head back south. I was crossing the lake a few minutes prior and the surface was like a mirror and ceiling was maybe 2,000 - 3,000 feet AGL with scattered now showers. The snow was coming out of clouds and looking lower it was coming up from the reflected clouds. Definitely IMC. So his jet got slow and the AoA limiter stopped holding altitude and he descended quite gently at the limiter until impact, in the process of changing IFF ( we had a solid state recorder for several parameters, so hard to lie to the investigation board).
Lesson learned for all of us back then. And still valid today.
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The pilot had received FAA certification to fly the 525 on 8th December, just three weeks before the crash. He had previously been certified to fly the 510 Mustang as well as other types.
Source video/article
Source video/article
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Although I agree that the A/P is a great aid under these conditions and should be used, especially in single pilot night IFR operations, too many young pilots wealthy enough to afford an airplane such as this think they can substitute button pushing for basic IFR flying skills and currency.
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It appears from news reports this week that the search for human remains is now concluded, but that some searching for aircraft pieces may continue. As noted in one article:
Crews have retrieved two wings, large portions of the fuselage, an engine, and other large pieces in a search that will soon enter its third week. The cockpit voice recorder is currently undergoing analysis at the National Transportation Safety Board headquarters in Washington D.C. The plane's ARES box, which records mechanical information, was also sent to the NTSB.
Crews have retrieved two wings, large portions of the fuselage, an engine, and other large pieces in a search that will soon enter its third week. The cockpit voice recorder is currently undergoing analysis at the National Transportation Safety Board headquarters in Washington D.C. The plane's ARES box, which records mechanical information, was also sent to the NTSB.
