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Management Co's

Old 22nd Apr 2016, 10:15
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Management Co's

It appears there is a fair few of us that are pretty frustrated at the often inept and frustrating "powers that be" that are managing private aircraft either for charter or sole use..... I'm thinking of creating a new co and doing it slightly different to the normal method....

We would be focussing on happy crew (pay & roster), professional practises, and ensuring the owners understand the value we provide if done properly...... Acorns to Oak Trees and all that!

Is anyone else interested in having a discussion and helping form and create?? If you are chief pilot / manual writing / CAMO / QA orientated clearly that would help to begin with.

Flat management structure, everyone a shareholder, everyone all on the same page - normal postholders but no elitism!

Thoughts? Please PM if serious as will not give massive amounts away on here for obvious reasons....
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Old 23rd Apr 2016, 00:55
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What if I told you.....There are companies out there just as you mentioned... Your just not looking hard enough, or you are not aware of them, as they don't advertise because they don't need to!
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Old 23rd Apr 2016, 05:11
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There are and even more have been companies like the sketched. If(!) you have to make a living from it, think careful, as being a shareholder means to stand the commercial pressure. You have to like that and if you go the route, you will understand why so many managers are <censored>, they have the job, but quite some cannot stand the pressure.

Pls drop me more info per PM.
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Old 23rd Apr 2016, 08:03
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noneya - Im sure there are but you have to kiss a few frogs to find them.... and there is just not enough!!
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Old 23rd Apr 2016, 08:54
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Had this thought in my past as a biz-jet pilot....I personally think it is a great idea, and I agree...sure there are companies out there like this in the corporate world, but can't think of any exactly as Jetscream suggests....hope it proves a success for you
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Old 23rd Apr 2016, 10:06
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F.O thanks awfully old chap!
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Old 23rd Apr 2016, 11:25
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First.officer surely you can think of one?
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Old 23rd Apr 2016, 11:31
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J32,

This is how we operate.

We are a Boutique Management Company and have been in business for 10 years operating quietly and happily. We limit the amount of clients we have. We only take clients that are recommended by one of our other clients and we don't advertise or solicit.

We charge a flat month fee for our service and present all invoices at face value to each owner. - In essence we are the stewards of the owners monies to operate their aircraft.

We do not charter or have an AOC cert.

We are an accredited IS-BAO flight department with SMS in place

All our pilots are Captains and we paid above industry standard.

We run a 30/30 rotation on all our planes.

Everyone that holds a position in "Management" is also a pilot, except Accounting, MX, and Dispatch. - So basically "Flat" we have no hierarchy. I own the company, but I am also just another Captain on one of the aircraft.

So I think and I would bet most of our crews think we are pretty close to your idea... No we are not perfect, but we strive to be better everyday.
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Old 23rd Apr 2016, 11:51
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I do sincerely apologise JD - with the OBVIOUS exception of your company lol....and I can't really include my current one, as we're not really in the corporate world....
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Old 23rd Apr 2016, 16:05
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Hi Noneya,

Appreciate all that you are saying and indeed if it was non charter a/c management I actually would expect everyone to be happy.... its the charter side that adds the pain in so many areas for so many people. Private sole use is a lovely business to be in with the majority of owners more than aware of whats involved.... Charter fleets are a whole new level! and a whole world of pain if the left hand is not talking to the right hand!
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Old 23rd Apr 2016, 20:44
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Spot on Jetscream. There was a great thread about this the other day where it was pointed out that many charter flights are subsidized by aircraft owners who are being fleeced by disreputable outfits, making it difficult for good companies to properly compete (at least on Avinode).

Can someone switch it up so that aircraft owners get a better deal and charter passengers pay a higher but fairer price for their aircraft?
Is the model of aircraft management, as we know it, doomed? Will other paradigms such as fractional (NetJets) and purely commercial (JetSuite) along with newer ideas such as seat-sharing (Victor) and shuttles (JetSmarter) dominate?
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Old 24th Apr 2016, 09:14
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Hey BB,

If owners start to subsidise flights then they will soon get bored and put the aircraft up for sale and just go back to chartering.

My very own personal view is that instead of a race to the bottom in prices with bizarre seat sale schemes, apps and chest beating from whipper snappers that think those of us in this industry have been in dark ages for the last 20 years , the charter industry needs to get more in tune with how and why the owners buy them in the first place.. Get back into the mindset that these are on-demand time machines crewed by guys and girls that are absolute professionals and have mastered the art of ""hurry up & wait" whilst being adaptive and agile in their thinking and operation.

This era of fly private jets for nothing, or have a seat for $200 type thing is only cheapening and degrading the true value these aircraft actually bring to business owners that buy them...

I'm just a buckshee run of the mill normal guy that has a good enough relationship with some owners to see that there will be NO business case for a guy thats made millions in creating or growing a business and thinking of buying an aircraft if all he can see if everyone everywhere that is NOT an owner (brokers) discounting and offering FREE or easy jet price flights around the place... What will come next?

Everyone in this industry is very very protective of their clients, yet all the clients tend to hang out in the same places, talk to each other openly and generally have their own opinions of the good / bad / ugly... There is plenty of scope to flourish this industry but the current direction we seem to be being dragged into by brokers is not at all pleasant in the long term.

Chartering a private jet should be one of the areas of success in life to remain a privilege or a damn good business decision based on cost benefit ratio not cheapened to the point that you will be getting tokens in "The Sun" newspaper for a flight.

ok - off my hobby horse now.....
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Old 24th Apr 2016, 10:11
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The truth is, that very, very few people have made money in this field.

And another part of this thruth is, that when you pay your crews a decent wage and let them have a tad of R&R every now and then, you canīt compete with most of the outfits that use freelancing lawyers and the like that do our job as a hobby for a hobby remuneration.

Is was DO of an AOC company next door to such an outfit, you canīt compete in the long run with guys who pay 150€/day for freelancing crews that also pay for all their check rides, trainings and ratings themselves.

Especially not when "modern" brokers are involved.

Price is everything these days, with just a few exceptions.
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Old 24th Apr 2016, 10:17
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HD, The only way things will ever get back to normal is if the owners understand and realise whats going on behind the closed doors of the relationship between managers and brokers... Then I'm sure things will start to change bit by bit...
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Old 24th Apr 2016, 14:15
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It's more a question of bringing some form of oversight on brokers. They are the ones who strongarm the management/operations company.
Having run a small successful 135 Management company as a postholder in the US with success until we returned to Europe due to family health issues.
We differed from the other players in as much as once the airframe had been accepted by the FAA through conformity etc., we did not charge the management fee. We took a percentage of every flight to cover our costs. This fee was approx 5% of the charter.
If the plane didn't fly, we wouldn't make money. If the plane flew cheaply, we wouldn't make any money. All costs (Crew/Insurance/Benefits) were a transparent pass to the owner. We retained operational control. Staff were paid well and were happy, owners were not being gouged and were happy.
Having seen how managers operate here, and the astounding monthly fees they charge I'm pretty certain this business model would replicate anywhere. I even have a client looking to charter on a weekly basis for a round trip europe-caribbean 6 months of the year minimum.
Anybody interested in setting up a similar operation over here with me? lol

Last edited by Ihadadream; 24th Apr 2016 at 14:52.
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Old 24th Apr 2016, 14:41
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HD, The only way things will ever get back to normal is if the owners understand and realise whats going on behind the closed doors of the relationship between managers and brokers... Then I'm sure things will start to change bit by bit...
I sure hope it will for the sake of the people involved on the coal face...
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Old 24th Apr 2016, 14:53
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Most management companies can't stand the brokers - why would you say otherwise?
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Old 24th Apr 2016, 20:26
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IHAD..... you mention a way of operating that i actually fully agree with and is far more transparent and fair....as you say here is a way we have fallen into as this is the way everyone else does it here..... rather than what makes commercial sense for an owner...

Brokers have their part to play don't get me wrong, but they need to understand who is calling the shots....

The UHNW buys the aircraft - he calls the shots on its availability
The management co provides the crew and certification to charter - they do NOT call the shots but should facilitate the owners desire for a commercial fee per hour agreed AFTER all operational costs either occupied or empty.
The brokers should deal with what they are offered and not shout and scream and try to hold management companies to ransom on how much flying they are giving them as a reason to drive the rates down or subsidise a "shed" of an aircrafts rate but expect a shiny new one....
They need a quick swift kick in the knadgers when they are selling rates of a clapped out C Bravo and expecting and demanding a brand new P300 that has less than 100 hrs on it - just because they "gave us" 30 hrs of flying last month......
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Old 25th Apr 2016, 16:32
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His dudeness,

Don't tarnish all the freelance pilots with secondary qualifications with the same brush. I wouldn't leave my house for that rate. 400 euros a day as a freelance FO and the company paid for my LPC/OPC and travel.
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Old 25th Apr 2016, 18:42
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Originally Posted by His dudeness
you canīt compete in the long run with guys who pay 150€/day for freelancing crews that also pay for all their check rides, trainings and ratings themselves.
His dudeness, if you cross path with one of those pilots, please kick him/her hard and again for me, thanks.
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